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Author Topic: Hunter Education Discussion  (Read 28286 times)

Offline Oldguy

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2012, 01:22:16 PM »
There is no rule that I know of that prevents the use of firearms for teaching HE in public schools. I have  helped teach classes in public schools.

Offline Special T

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2012, 01:43:09 PM »
I actually set you guys up to see what you would say.  :chuckle: My wife is a teacher, and i know ALL about the 0 tolorance policy.  There is no way on Gods gree earth that they would let ANYTING even resembling a gun into the school. I know of kids that have had yellow nerf guns taken from them and have been kicked out of school for a week for bringing in that kind of stuff.

If you are gona fight that fight, good luck, but I personaly wouldn't bet on it.
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

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Offline Fowlweather25

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2012, 01:52:16 PM »
Weird, my nephew is taking the course at adna school right now and they've had the guns there for 3 days now! Some orange non firing guns, and some working weapons as well.
What would life be without the thrill of the hunt?

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2012, 01:53:43 PM »
 :yike:  I'm surprised and impressed...
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

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Offline ghosthunter

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2012, 02:00:24 PM »
I actually set you guys up to see what you would say.  :chuckle: My wife is a teacher, and i know ALL about the 0 tolorance policy.  There is no way on Gods gree earth that they would let ANYTING even resembling a gun into the school. I know of kids that have had yellow nerf guns taken from them and have been kicked out of school for a week for bringing in that kind of stuff.

If you are gona fight that fight, good luck, but I personaly wouldn't bet on it.

Yep I could teach in most schools in Skagit County. I have taught in Bayveiw school before. And in Concrete they taught at the High School because my daughter took the class.

Never the less this is getting off topic. The state did not buy Orange guns so we could teach in schools. That is just one posters angle.
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Offline Fowlweather25

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2012, 02:43:09 PM »
Orange guns are just an overall safety meausre. No firing pin equals no bang! Loaded or not.
What would life be without the thrill of the hunt?

Offline steen

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2012, 02:58:54 PM »
Sometimes hunter ed. is about the parent.  We have alot of parents (including mothers) who take the course so that they know how to safely handle a firearm also and can help their kids along.  Many of them won't hunt but want to be able to "check" the kids.  These may or may not be single mothers.  It is important to continue the skill after the class with an adult that hunts and can help them out.  They don't necessarily have to be the parents.  We have helped alot of kids on their first hunts some with no hunting parents and many with hunting parents.  Some parents (male included) are single without the time to take them.  Personally I don't think the state should have a say.  The parents should.  They should have a choice whether or not to send their kids to hunter ed. or not.  Some parents can do as good a job or better.  I bet alot would still send them.

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2012, 03:17:57 PM »
Sometimes hunter ed. is about the parent.  We have alot of parents (including mothers) who take the course so that they know how to safely handle a firearm also and can help their kids along.  Many of them won't hunt but want to be able to "check" the kids.  These may or may not be single mothers.  It is important to continue the skill after the class with an adult that hunts and can help them out.  They don't necessarily have to be the parents.  We have helped alot of kids on their first hunts some with no hunting parents and many with hunting parents.  Some parents (male included) are single without the time to take them.  Personally I don't think the state should have a say.  The parents should.  They should have a choice whether or not to send their kids to hunter ed. or not.  Some parents can do as good a job or better.  I bet alot would still send them.

 :)
GHOST CAMP "We Came To Hunt"
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We are all traveling from Birth to the Packing House. ( Broken Trail)

“I f he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ― Theodore Roosevelt

Don’t Curse the Darkness.

Offline HORSEPOWER

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2012, 04:52:36 PM »
OK, I'll put in my two cents.
As for teaching HE at schools: *They are not 0 tolerance- police can carry on the grounds at any given time.  *If there is no other activity going on at the school, you can have HE classes, trap, etc.  But even if there a few people working out in the weight room it's supposed to be a no go.  And there are some other rules that apply to additional situations for safety reasons.  *There is a special extra curricular application provided by the schools across the state that is to be used for this.
Fake Guns:  I am in total agreement that this would be a tragic mistake, and WILL be a tragic mistake.  But, I'm not quitting because our youth (the highest percentage of my classes) need us more than ever and I'm not comfortable knowing that some of these people with no actual hands on experience will be able to be out there in the field with my kids.  I received a call today from a game biologist in a neighboring county about my upcoming classes because their instructor has already quit over this issue, even after people were already signed up for his classes.  It is sad to see good instructors leave. 
Kalkomey:We know that this is where the world is going to go, but I don't like it either.  I know it is less paperwork for Jan but I'm willing to guess that there are just as may hassles.  There several people that don't have internet here so that means I spend more time signing them up myself.  I can live with it though.
On-Line classes:  We did an on-line class a couple of years ago.  70% of the class drove all the way from the coast to take it.  At that time they had to pass a 10 question test in order to continue with the class.  Half of the class failed that simple 10 question,common sense quiz, and had to turn around and drive all the way back over the mountains.  I told Chuck that I was not going to waste my time with a ridiculous class like that.  Well, rules changed a little and about a month ago we tried it again.  A month before class 30 seats were filled and there was a waiting list.  Again, there were 70% from the West side, several that traveled about 70 miles, and only 1 local.  We followed Chuck's 4 hr. classroom format and then out on the range we went.  Keep in mind that with this class they are generally older, from 16 to 40.  5 of these people were proficient and very capable.  The others knew less than the 10 year olds in any given Traditional class I have ever had.  We happened to have a traditional class going on at the same time (in between class schedules) so the On-line class got a touch of everything we do and what they could learn so, in turn, several of these On-line people realized what they were missing out on and are already registered for a Traditional class.  On another note- We put all of our hours in on a Friday night and all day Saturday.  Sunday is test day.
My Biggest Beef right now:  Someone sort of touched on this earlier with the archery.  Illegal Aliens and Felons....
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Offline ghosthunter

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2012, 08:08:43 PM »
Horse Power said:color=orange]Fake Guns:[/color]  I am in total agreement that this would be a tragic mistake, and WILL be a tragic mistake.  But, I'm not quitting because our youth (the highest percentage of my classes) need us more than ever and I'm not comfortable knowing that some of these people with no actual hands on experience will be able to be out there in the field with my kids.  I received a call today from a game biologist in a neighboring county about my upcoming classes because their instructor has already quit over this issue, even after people were already signed up for his classes.  It is sad to see good instructors leave. 

 :tup:

It, is sorry to see instructors leave. Each has to make their own decision. For me I cannot use fake orange guns or non working. If I cannot bring in the firearms I want for a quality class than I am not doing classes. It did not have to come to this.

I too do not do internet classes for the same reason. The students cannot absorb the gun handling in 4 hrs. When I teach a class I am trying to create a habit with my students. Muzzle in a safe direction,finger off the trigger,work the action three times, every time they receive or pick up a gun. It works I know it works. 
My friend who helps in my classes does the internet classes too. I have told him I will do anything for him he is a friend and a hunting buddy,but I will not help in internet reviews.

Welcome HorsePower to this forum.
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We are all traveling from Birth to the Packing House. ( Broken Trail)

“I f he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ― Theodore Roosevelt

Don’t Curse the Darkness.

Offline ghosthunter

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2012, 07:26:37 PM »
Today I met and talked for several hours with Carl Kline & Dan Boes along with my teaching team.

I have said many times here the issues for me where 1. I am not teaching with Orange guns.
                                                                             2. I am not teaching with guns which are not operational.

The issues for me were resolved in the following way by Carl & Dan. 1. We will not be required to use the orange guns. Provided the guns we do use in the classroom and for skills cannot be fired. The solution for me is a trigger lock on all firearms in the classroom. This way the student can train and handle the exact gun used for live fire and skills testing. We never let the students put their finger on the trigger any ways. This way they will not be able too.
This solves both my complaints. I will continue to use the same guns I have always used with trigger locks in place that I can take off when needed.
I still need to come up with a so loution for lever action firearms.


They brought a set of orange guns to the meeting and we all inspected them. Here's my observations.

The guns are butt ugly orange.
All of the guns are heavier than the state owned 20 GA. youth models.
Non of the firearms are Youth Models, they are all full size.
As expected all the actions are very stiff.

Another topic of discussion was Live Fire Range Days. They assured me those would not go away. But Range days are optional for the instructor and the student. :yikes: What? The student may op out of live fire. So in my class we do skills one night and live fire on the weekend. If the student is allowed to op out of live fire than why should I have live fire? Why should I get up at  o dark 30 if only half my class shows up for live fire.

So for me I intend not to have live fire range as long as students are allowed to op out of Live fire. This is not how I interput ed live fire over the years. I saw live fire as optional for the instructor. If I had a range everyone was required to attend and shoot. That according to Dan & Carl in not policy. If a student does not want to shoot you cannot  require it.  So why have a range day?

Other changes are in the works, set max hours, age limit?, I did not discuss these changes with them because I am not concerned with them.

So that is what I know right now. More will be fleshedout at IST.
GHOST CAMP "We Came To Hunt"
Proud Parent of A United States Marine

We are all traveling from Birth to the Packing House. ( Broken Trail)

“I f he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ― Theodore Roosevelt

Don’t Curse the Darkness.

Offline Brownarola

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2012, 08:59:02 AM »
Quote
I too do not do internet classes for the same reason. The students cannot absorb the gun handling in 4 hrs. When I teach a class I am trying to create a habit with my students. Muzzle in a safe direction,finger off the trigger,work the action three times, every time they receive or pick up a gun. It works I know it works.
My friend who helps in my classes does the internet classes too. I have told him I will do anything for him he is a friend and a hunting buddy,but I will not help in internet reviews

I would have to disagree. Through trial and error the entire issue was the lack of information; if you give online students a vague outline of what to expect, they will come unprepared. When my son went for his driver's license the state gave a clear, concise outline of everything they need to demonstrate to obtain his license. The same should apply to online students. if you write a very detailed set of instructions(I'm not talking about a book) telling the students what skills they must perform as well as what dictates a failure, students will come prepared. I gave them places to view firearm actions on the web and I also made it very clear that when they showed up, this was going to be an evaluation. The Online Event Manager makes it very easy to communicate with students and you simply have to copy and paste your instructions in a mass email, and send it down the line.

Here is the last revision of the email I used to send to students at least two weeks prior to the range day evaluation. You have to give them time to prepare. Of course I would update it to include what the state mandates as well as dates, times, and location of your events. The general comments received from students who who attended my online certification field days was the email woke them up and made them realize they needed to do a lot of practicing before the range day.

BTW - On the range day I simply collected the paperwork,  outlined where  they be at when not shooting and the range layout. Gave them a safety brief and then called my first student and did nothing more than ask them to perform tasks. I.e. please secure a firearm from the vehicle or from the gun rack. They either opened the action and discovered the hidden snap inside or they failed. My advice to all of you thinking about online students, TEST THEM.. Do NOT teach. If they prepared for the course they will pass. If not they didn't, they will take a traditional course.

Quote
--------------------------------------------
copy of range notification email
----------------------------------------------

Dear "Student name",

The field evaluation will be held on {Date and time} on {Location} and it is a Field Skills Evaluation where you will be evaluated on your ability to safely handle a firearm. If you fail this evaluation, you will be required to attend a traditional hunter education course.

Note: The only persons who may waive the field skills evaluation are active or inactive military personnel. To waive the field course, the student must provide {instructor name} with a copy of their DD 214 and photo id such as a driver's license.

Here is a copy of the information contained in the course outline.

WARNING: If you are a person who cannot legally possess a firearm, I cannot certify you but you may still become certified with archery equipment to hunt in Washington State.

Please bring the following documents {Date and Time} to {Location}.

1. The Signed Exam Certificate. A parent must sign if the student is under 18.
2. The Range Evaluation Form.
3. A signed Parental Consent form if the student is under 18 years of age.

The Range Evaluation and Regulation Quiz are found http://my.hunter-ed.com/welcome/how_it_works?default_course=201050 at the bottom of the page.

Here are directions to the shooting area.

To get to {Location}

{Give driving location or GPS coordinates}

Here are somethings you will be evaluated on.
1. The six field carries
2. Unloading / loading firearm. This may be any action.
3. Selecting proper ammunition
4. Crossing an obstacles.
5. Difference between gauges and calibers.

Additional Information
You may bring your own firearms if you wish. They must be a caliber .243 or higher and between .20 gauge and .12gauge and I will need to inspect them prior to use. If you are not using a .270 or .243 ammunition, you will then need to provide your own ammunition.  If you do not have a firearm, you will be able to qualify with mine. I will also provide shooting glasses and hearing protection.

Here is a rough outline of my grading criteria.

If any THREE following guidelines are broken you will fail the field course.

•    Parents interfering in the testing process by trying to help their child
•    Trying to hand a firearm to another person with the action closed
•    Inability to identify the term zone of fire
•    Not using safeties between each shot
•    Keeping finger out of trigger guard before ready to shoot.
•    Inability to identify a caliber or gauge on firearm
•    Inability to identify proper length shot shell length for firearm
•    Not changing carries to avoid muzzling instructor or other students on field walk.
•    Inability to name and or perform four of the six field carries
•    Failing to open the action before removing the firearm from a vehicle.

If you do one of the following listed things you will fail the evaluation.

•    Trying to cross an obstacle with a loaded firearm
•    Unintentional launch of a shell down range (not keeping finger out of the trigger guard)
•    Muzzling of crowd with loaded firearm
•    Loading of a firearm any place other than the firing line.
•    Identify target with a scope instead of binoculars
•    Inability to select proper ammunition
•    Inability to operate any firearm actions.
•    Failure to close the action and attempting to fire the weapon.
•    Failure to wait 1 minute in the event a cartridge fails to discharge before opening the action
•    The performance of any unsafe act which includes shooting at anything other than designated targets.

Again - this is an evaluation and not a teaching session. If the student fails, they will be required to attend a traditional hunter education course.

Please - before you attend this evaluation, make sure you know how to properly handle a firearms. The evaluation criteria may seem harsh, but I take firearm safety very seriously and I do not wish to get a call telling me that a student I passed had a firearm accident. Firearms may kill from over 5 miles away and it is very important that you understand this fact prior to going into the field for the first time.

If you are not very familiar with firearm actions a good place to look is YouTube or visit a local gun shop where they will show how actions operate. You will not be evaluated on pistols or muzzle-loaders and YouTube contains a lot of videos that explain exactly how to operate the various firearm actions however a video is not the same as the real-thing so try and get hands on practice with real firearms prior to the evaluation.

Hopefully that answers all of your questions and I'll see you at the range.

Makes me wonder if this topic should evolve into a different thread where instructors could go to share thoughts and ideas about setting up a successful online field evaluation. Those of you from the military; do you remember basic training. When it came time to field skills evaluations were you told, "Don't put your finger in the trigger guard?" , "Watch the muzzle", "click this button to open the action", "Remember to use your safety." NOT!!!.. You were either a go or no go. If you failed you went back and got further training and tried it again at a later date.  If you failed again, you were recycled to another class. The same should apply to your field days. Don't know if you are teaching on range days. Ask yourself the question. Am I reminding the student to do something they should already know how to do? If you are reminding them, you are teaching. If you stick to the state standards you should be ok.

Offline ghosthunter

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2012, 11:53:18 AM »
Suggestions to the state on the inert firearms:

There’s only five so you can’t have two groups of three out doing the field course with these things at the same time.  We could really use even numbers.

There’s no single shot break action, so the most common firearm used on live shoots for the smaller kids is missing and they can’t practice loading/unloading unless we use the live guns.

The 12 gauge pump should be 20 gauge if that is an option.  It will be lighter and also match our range day firearms, but still have the 12 gauge semi-auto for the larger gun.

I suggest they buy $1500.00 in trigger locks then we use the guns we want. How much money would that save?
GHOST CAMP "We Came To Hunt"
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We are all traveling from Birth to the Packing House. ( Broken Trail)

“I f he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ― Theodore Roosevelt

Don’t Curse the Darkness.

Offline ghosthunter

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2012, 12:37:13 PM »
If you want to see the guns the state is buying, here they are: http://www.guns.com/mossberg-and-the-ihea-team-up-to-make-training-shotguns.html.

Mine came in the rolling case.  The case includes the five firearms in soft-sided cases which are cheap.  One of the zippers pulled apart the first time it was closed and the case is now useless.

Interesting if you read to the bottom of your link you will find this statement.
Guess i am not alone.

"OK, we get it, we understand the argument of having guns that are good for training and that can't hurt anyone unless you club them with them, but you can do all that with real guns sans bullets.  There is always the risk of things turning all Brandon Lee but honestly, if you're training with guns you know can't hurt people, aren't you just going to train in mistakes along the way?"
:bash:
GHOST CAMP "We Came To Hunt"
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We are all traveling from Birth to the Packing House. ( Broken Trail)

“I f he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ― Theodore Roosevelt

Don’t Curse the Darkness.

Offline ghosthunter

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Re: Hunter Education Discussion
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2012, 12:41:23 PM »
Someone said they are not fakes. but on the link we have this.

: the Mossberg 500 pump-action shotgun, MosMossberg's making five different tastyfakessberg 930 semiautomatic shotgun, Maverick Hunter Over-and-Under break-action shotgun, the Mossberg 464 lever-action rifle, and the Mossberg International 802 Plinkster bolt-action rimfire rifle.  They all have functioning safeties, which just makes our brains hurt
GHOST CAMP "We Came To Hunt"
Proud Parent of A United States Marine

We are all traveling from Birth to the Packing House. ( Broken Trail)

“I f he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ― Theodore Roosevelt

Don’t Curse the Darkness.

 


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