Coyote and Deer Populations

[PA BEN]

I live on the west side now. ever time i go home to hunt i see more and more coyotes, in 2008 i saw 12 in one pack. the bucks and all deer numbers has gone down.

[jdurham]

I live on the west side now. ever time i go home to hunt i see more and more coyotes, in 2008 i saw 12 in one pack. the bucks and all deer numbers has gone down.

I used to pass on coyotes when I was hunting deer.  Now I smoke everyone I see.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

sorry your logic behind your thoughts has not been proven in any state that has wolves right now.

Why is Prince of Wales Island near Ketchikan the premier Sitka Blacktail hunting location then? It is infested with wolves and black bears. Deer and salmon are the main source of food for those two species.

It is estimated that 300-350 wolves live on the island. I've seen estimates of 10,000, that's right ten thousand black bears live on the island. Prince of Wales is about 2/3 the size of the Olympic Peninsula. If the wolf haters were correct about how much damage wolves do to cervids (not to mention bears), there wouldn't be a deer on Prince of Wales. But of course reality doesn't always live up to wild speculation.

Another interesting fact is, on Prince of Wales Island, the biggest killer of deer fawns is black bears, not wolves, by a very large margin. 

I understand the real concern about farm animal predation. People should be able to protect their property.  And problem animals should be dealt with swiftly and fatally. 

[Dhoey07]

sorry your logic behind your thoughts has not been proven in any state that has wolves right now.

Why is Prince of Wales Island near Ketchikan the premier Sitka Blacktail hunting location then? It is infested with wolves and black bears. Deer and salmon are the main source of food for those two species.

It is estimated that 300-350 wolves live on the island. I've seen estimates of 10,000, that's right ten thousand black bears live on the island. Prince of Wales is about 2/3 the size of the Olympic Peninsula. If the wolf haters were correct about how much damage wolves do to cervids (not to mention bears), there wouldn't be a deer on Prince of Wales. But of course reality doesn't always live up to wild speculation.

Another interesting fact is, on Prince of Wales Island, the biggest killer of deer fawns is black bears, not wolves, by a very large margin. 

I understand the real concern about farm animal predation. People should be able to protect their property.  And problem animals should be dealt with swiftly and fatally.

Different habitat and different hunting pressure

[Special T]

Not a very good comparison. Are you trying to say that the wolves here in wa are going to "fish" for thier meat?  ALL canivors are oportunists. If there is an easy meal they will take it...

I don't doubt that wolves kill for fun. Why? My brothers house cat is a killing machine, and it doesn't eat any mice. He just stacks them up by the door like cord wood.   

[Sitka_Blacktail]

sorry your logic behind your thoughts has not been proven in any state that has wolves right now.

Why is Prince of Wales Island near Ketchikan the premier Sitka Blacktail hunting location then? It is infested with wolves and black bears. Deer and salmon are the main source of food for those two species.

It is estimated that 300-350 wolves live on the island. I've seen estimates of 10,000, that's right ten thousand black bears live on the island. Prince of Wales is about 2/3 the size of the Olympic Peninsula. If the wolf haters were correct about how much damage wolves do to cervids (not to mention bears), there wouldn't be a deer on Prince of Wales. But of course reality doesn't always live up to wild speculation.

Another interesting fact is, on Prince of Wales Island, the biggest killer of deer fawns is black bears, not wolves, by a very large margin. 

I understand the real concern about farm animal predation. People should be able to protect their property.  And problem animals should be dealt with swiftly and fatally.

Different habitat and different hunting pressure

Hey, carpsniper said my theory has never been proved out anywhere. I pointed out that it has. Every time I point out that wolves don't wipe out their prey, somebody says ohhh but that's different.  I'll tell you the difference there, they get a heck of a lot more snow and that makes the deer more vulnerable. That should tip the balance to the predators even farther. But it doesn't.

You'd be surprised at the hunting pressure on POW. There are lots of roads and the limit is 4 deer per year.

Here's a couple of the local outfitters/guides

http://thornebaylodge.com/bear_hunting.html
http://thornebaylodge.com/deer_hunting.html

http://muskegexcursions.com/hunting/southeast_alaska_bear_hunting.htm
http://muskegexcursions.com/hunting/southeast_alaska_deer_hunting.htm

No shortage of deer there.

[Special T]

There is a HUGE difference between Correlation and Causation.  Just because 2 things seem to be joined together does not mean they are. There are exception on both sides. An island is a great way to study something because its more controllable. It does not make it the same as main land.

Would you be surprised to know that if you drink more than 8 cups of coffee a day you are 10x as likely to get in a serious car accident? That is a FACT! Now you say how can coffee kill you? Well i doubt it does. Alcoholics are HUGE consumers of coffee. As it turns out its the ALCOHOL that causes the accidents but one of the signs is large coffee consumption. 

Correlation is MUCH easier to prove than Causation. Media and people like to think they are the same...

[Dhoey07]

POW island in not the premier sitka black tail hunting location, that would be the ABC islands.  POW does have bigger bt in general but that is because they are running under optimun occupancy.  They also kill 1/3 of the wolf population every year, to try and keep them in check.  Only 6,000 people live there, so no they won't get the hunter pressure we do. 

[jdurham]

Prince of Whales Island is a poor comparison to the State of Washington.  Not similar in the most remote way.  Sad thing about the people that want the wolf here.  I bet 99% of them never get off their lazy asses and go look for a wolf!  Even those that do look for them will rarely see one.  How is this wolf population going to help save the woodland caribou they are trying to protect?  That should work well!

[Kowsrule30]

http://www.americanhunter.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2121&cid=47

Here's a couple quotes from this article.

"During the past 100 years, however, coyotes colonized North America's eastern corridor after gray wolves and red wolves were exterminated."

"That's because scientific research from eastern Canada to the southeastern U.S. shows coyote predation on fawns kill more deer than herds can replace in some areas."

This is what I've been saying about wolves helping deer populations. Wolves hit coyote populations hard. They don't tolerate competition from other canines. The fawns they save from coyotes will more than make up for the deer they kill themselves.  Personally, I'd rather have a half dozen to a dozen wolves in an area than a thousand coyotes. Besides fawns, game bird populations would increase too.

This is the good that wolves can do that many refuse to accept.

Sorry so late.....  But you're joking right?!!!!!!!  I sure hope so.... That's as close to comparing 1000 deer to half a dozen elk.... Minus the fact they don't eat each other.... POINTLESS!!!! 

[carpsniperg2]

Sitka you sure like comparing apples to oranges I think the other guys have summed up just what I would have said Good job guys

[jdurham]

http://www.americanhunter.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2121&cid=47

Here's a couple quotes from this article.

"During the past 100 years, however, coyotes colonized North America's eastern corridor after gray wolves and red wolves were exterminated."

"That's because scientific research from eastern Canada to the southeastern U.S. shows coyote predation on fawns kill more deer than herds can replace in some areas."

This is what I've been saying about wolves helping deer populations. Wolves hit coyote populations hard. They don't tolerate competition from other canines. The fawns they save from coyotes will more than make up for the deer they kill themselves.  Personally, I'd rather have a half dozen to a dozen wolves in an area than a thousand coyotes. Besides fawns, game bird populations would increase too.

This is the good that wolves can do that many refuse to accept.

Sorry so late.....  But you're joking right?!!!!!!!  I sure hope so.... That's as close to comparing 1000 deer to half a dozen elk.... Minus the fact they don't eat each other.... POINTLESS!!!!

So the wolves will kill the coyotes and ignore the fawns.  Now I understand NOT!

[PA BEN]

Hey, carpsniper said my theory has never been proved out anywhere. I pointed out that it has. Every time I point out that wolves don't wipe out their prey, somebody says ohhh but that's different.  I'll tell you the difference there, they get a heck of a lot more snow and that makes the deer more vulnerable. That should tip the balance to the predators even farther.[b] But it doesn't.[/b]
You'd be surprised at the hunting pressure on POW. There are lots of roads and the limit is 4 deer per year.


You have never seen snow crust over?? The deer break through and can't out run a dog let alone a coyote or a wolf. They run up along side bite the belley and rip it open.

[buckfvr]

Unfortunately we will all get to see the results.....and I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.  However, I think the only wolf advocate on this site will be the farthest from the truth.  He seems to have the persuasion of an anti......very unlike any of the rest of us here....very much like a plant.

[jdurham]

Hey, carpsniper said my theory has never been proved out anywhere. I pointed out that it has. Every time I point out that wolves don't wipe out their prey, somebody says ohhh but that's different.  I'll tell you the difference there, they get a heck of a lot more snow and that makes the deer more vulnerable. That should tip the balance to the predators even farther.[b] But it doesn't.[/b]
You'd be surprised at the hunting pressure on POW. There are lots of roads and the limit is 4 deer per year.


You have never seen snow crust over?? The deer break through and can't out run a dog let alone a coyote or a wolf. They run up along side bite the belley and rip it open.

 So Pa Ben why are you so in favor of the non native Grey wolf being introduced to Washington?