Coyote and Deer Populations

[jdurham]

There is some interesting reading on how bad coyotes can affect deer populations.  I live in Unit 124 south of Newport.  I keep mineral blocks and game cameras out yearound so I have a good eye on the deer herds here.   My neighbor has 80 acres of alfalfa so there is a reason for them to be here.  We have both noticed a lack of fawns with does during the summer months.  My game camera and observations by myself and others that scout or watch deer here are seeing about a 5 to 1 ratio on the deer.  That is 5 bucks to every doe!  We have had two mild winters in a row now so numbers should be increasing not declining.   This summer I had 6 does and only 1 fawn on my game camera.  There is an abundance of coyotes here and an occasional set of cougar tracks.  And yes, the wolves are showing up too.

http://www.americanhunter.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2121&cid=47

More good reading.   http://dongasaway.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/a-deer-coyote-study/
http://www.americanhunter.org/articles/how-coyotes-affect-deer-herds/

[Kowsrule30]

Yote season is still open.... Better get some down before they start dropping fawns....

[jdurham]

Yote season is still open.... Better get some down before they start dropping fawns....

I took 13 out of my field a year ago.  They don't like to hang around here anymore.  I do have some hunters coming up Monday to do some calling.

[Kowsrule30]

Sweet... Hope they get some!!! 

[jdurham]

I am hoping to remove 20 yotes between now and May where I hunt for blacktails on the coast. A lot of big dogs have been showing up and need to be delt with.

Any number removed will help.  Coyotes are rough on our game and nesting game birds.  As for dogs, they can be a real problem too.  I live right on the Idaho border.  A few years ago there were quit a few dogs chasing deer around here.  I called both WDFW and IDF&G.  Neither agency did anything other than tell me I couldn't or better not shoot them.  I don't see many dogs running or roaming free this year.  That would be consistent with wolves being spotted here.

[buckfvr]

I have recently decided they need to be hunted year round......if not hunting game animals,  I will target dogs.  I also see first hand the damage they do....I cant even keep track of how many times I have seen yotes run fawns and even adult deer.  121 needs help with yotes, plenty of dogs, but man are they smart...

[jdurham]

Yotes are very smart.  Hard to trap and with the trapping laws I know quite a few people that gave up on trapping.  I am getting serious enough about shooting coyotes that I am looking at night scopes for my ruger #1.  I know some other methods for getting rid of them that I won't mention here!  Very effective too.

[buckfvr]

Im comparing high intensity lights, plus pouring over the long range rifles and scopes to come up with a rig that is slam dunk at 5-600 yards.....If that was slam dunk instead of hail Mary, there'd be more dead yotes.

[jdurham]

I look at those tactical scopes too.  Millet makes some affordable ones that would work great for hunting.  Most any round works great if you know the excact distance and where your rifle hits at that range and the scope that can be adjusted easily and return to the same spot each time.  Most of my shots here are 250-300.  I did take one at 450 with my 7MM.  I shoot the 150 winchester supremes in my 7MM.  A very accurate factory load.  Hornady Vmax in my 22-250.

[jdurham]

I have looked at some of the night vision you can adapt to your scope too.  They sell different adapters that fit the different size optics.  Expensive but...... you can move from weapon to weapon. 

[buckfvr]

Elusivewildlife.com.........XLR 250 mounts atop your scope, guaranteed to light them up out to 250 yards....Your choice of lens colors, read some good reviews, found for about 140 bucks, which is less expensive than many of the others.  Im thinking 6-24X50 with target turrets,  and maybe 6.5 Creedmoor.....or something on those lines.  A true long range heavy barrel coyote gun that can also handle whitetail out there on the next ridge.......

[jdurham]

I have been considering the 6.5x284.  It is making some pretty impressive 1000 yard groups at competitions.  The BC of the 6.5 is about as good as you get.  Savage makes a great gun chambered for that round.  Accustock and Accutrigger. 
I believe it is the 10/110 predator model.  Just over $900.

[bobcat]

Elusivewildlife.com.........XLR 250 mounts atop your scope, guaranteed to light them up out to 250 yards....Your choice of lens colors, read some good reviews, found for about 140 bucks, which is less expensive than many of the others.  Im thinking 6-24X50 with target turrets,  and maybe 6.5 Creedmoor.....or something on those lines.  A true long range heavy barrel coyote gun that can also handle whitetail out there on the next ridge.......

That's the same light I was looking at, and same website. Did a little research on predatormasters.com and that's the one that seems to be getting all the favorable reviews. I don't want to spend the money right now but by next winter I'll have one.

[buckfvr]

I have been considering the 6.5x284.  It is making some pretty impressive 1000 yard groups at competitions.  The BC of the 6.5 is about as good as you get.  Savage makes a great gun chambered for that round.  Accustock and Accutrigger. 
I believe it is the 10/110 predator model.  Just over $900.

Yep....thats at the top of my list.....little spooked by the reviews of barrel life on the 6.5X.284...seems they burn the throats pretty quickly.  But, as usual, I will go back and forth on the specific chambering, but I think Im leaning towards the Creedmoor......in the 10 Predator Hunter Max 1 ....love that model.

[buckfvr]

Elusivewildlife.com.........XLR 250 mounts atop your scope, guaranteed to light them up out to 250 yards....Your choice of lens colors, read some good reviews, found for about 140 bucks, which is less expensive than many of the others.  Im thinking 6-24X50 with target turrets,  and maybe 6.5 Creedmoor.....or something on those lines.  A true long range heavy barrel coyote gun that can also handle whitetail out there on the next ridge.......

That's the same light I was looking at, and same website. Did a little research on predatormasters.com and that's the one that seems to be getting all the favorable reviews. I don't want to spend the money right now but by next winter I'll have one.

 

I think I will have that light here in the next month, and mount it on my .243 that gets the coyote nod for now....I hope its as good as many say it is.....We get a middle of the night wake up call darn near every night.....I want to be able to light them up to thank them properly....

[Sitka_Blacktail]

http://www.americanhunter.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2121&cid=47

Here's a couple quotes from this article.

"During the past 100 years, however, coyotes colonized North America's eastern corridor after gray wolves and red wolves were exterminated."

"That's because scientific research from eastern Canada to the southeastern U.S. shows coyote predation on fawns kill more deer than herds can replace in some areas."

This is what I've been saying about wolves helping deer populations. Wolves hit coyote populations hard. They don't tolerate competition from other canines. The fawns they save from coyotes will more than make up for the deer they kill themselves.  Personally, I'd rather have a half dozen to a dozen wolves in an area than a thousand coyotes. Besides fawns, game bird populations would increase too.

This is the good that wolves can do that many refuse to accept.

[carpsniperg2]

 "The fawns they save from coyotes will more than make up for the deer they kill themselves."

Thanks I needed a good laugh, havent had one like that in a long time!!!

Wolves helping deer fawns Now that's funny

[buckfvr]

Funny Idaho hasnt mentioned benefiting from the wolves.............

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I know it's hard to understand, but some day it may all make sense to you guys. 

[bobcat]

I can actually see the argument that the presence of wolves may not affect deer significantly, due to the likelyhood of the decrease in the number of coyotes. It will be interesting to see if this theory holds true, in say another 20 or 30 years.

However I'm not very optimistic at all when it comes to the chance of our elk and moose populations holding up with the additional predation of wolves added into the equation.

[3nails]

I know it's hard to understand, but some day it may all make sense to you guys. 

All I really know is what I see. In the Dworshack area of Idaho (an area with a large wolf poulation) coyote numbers have gone through the roof for some reason. Don't know why but the deer are getting hammered from both.

[carpsniperg2]

I am sure all the sportsman in Idaho agree with you sitka, They are kicking there hills up because the yote population is gone and the deer numbers are better then ever You know how much meat your wolves take to survive? I know yotes very well and spent a lot of time around them and hunting them. They do not eat fawns and deer 24/7 like the wolf does. How many wolves will mouse out in my fields to feed themselves? How many will turn my sheep into a food source or my cattle? everyone given the chance. I knock the hell out of the yotes in my area and they are even getting harder to find. In the area that does not have cats. The deer numbers are very good and the yote population is lower. Throw wolves into the mix when there is no elk in my area and guess what is going to get ate 24/7! I would bet for every one deer a yote kills a wolf kills 50+ sorry your logic behind your thoughts has not been proven in any state that has wolves right now. Washington will not be any different then the others. Our moose sheep mtn goats elk deer and livestock will be the main food source for wolves not mice and birds like the yotes Nice try though

[jdurham]

"The fawns they save from coyotes will more than make up for the deer they kill themselves."

Thanks I needed a good laugh, havent had one like that in a long time!!!

Wolves helping deer fawns Now that's funny

I have to agree with you on that one.  How funny!

[jdurham]

I am sure all the sportsman in Idaho agree with you sitka, They are kicking there hills up because the yote population is gone and the deer numbers are better then ever You know how much meat your wolves take to survive? I know yotes very well and spent a lot of time around them and hunting them. They do not eat fawns and deer 24/7 like the wolf does. How many wolves will mouse out in my fields to feed themselves? How many will turn my sheep into a food source or my cattle? everyone given the chance. I knock the hell out of the yotes in my area and they are even getting harder to find. In the area that does not have cats. The deer numbers are very good and the yote population is lower. Throw wolves into the mix when there is no elk in my area and guess what is going to get ate 24/7! I would bet for every one deer a yote kills a wolf kills 50+ sorry your logic behind your thoughts has not been proven in any state that has wolves right now. Washington will not be any different then the others. Our moose sheep mtn goats elk deer and livestock will be the main food source for wolves not mice and birds like the yotes Nice try though

   I read an article several years ago written by a biologist from Montana.  Wished I had saved it.  He went on to say how even given ample wild game the wolf will soon learn that livestock is a more plentiful and easier prey.  Just think how they will do given protection from their predator, man!

[carpsniperg2]

Yep! Hell at least when ever I lost any livestock to yotes "which has been very few over the years" I could go on a killing spree and thin them a little. With the wolves I would just get to sit and wait for tiny check for reimbursement! if!!! there was to even be funding for it. Then when they come back all I get to do is go collect another carcase or 2. Hell there has been packs in Montana that use to do killing sprees on livestock all the time. Get into a big flock of sheep and kill tons every night just for fun and the thrill of it. Shredded guard dogs and then go have a little fun killing with a full belly. Piss on the wolves being brought back we had a plenty healthy ecosystem without them here. There is a reason they were killed off because they are good for nothing! There is enough dang predators here already to take care of the "weak and old" haha my a$$. People always try to twist it into, oh they will help! What are they helping in any of the other states? is the fawn survival rate threw the roof? haha yeah right. Is the elk numbers booming? haha yeah right! Is the coyote population wiped out? hahaha yeah right. Is there no predation on livestock? hahahaha yeah right! Go try to pawn your wasted twisted info on some other people that don't have a brain. Not real sportsmen that understand the truth like we have on this site.   

[rtspring]

I want some of what he is smoking.  Really ? use wolves to cut down the coyotes, which in turn will save game?

I got a BULL CHIT flag run all the way up the damn flag pole on this theory you got!!!

[bearpaw]

Hounds and trapping has been stopped and the greenies have destroyed the fur market, and raptor numbers are rapidly increasing.

I'm going to borrow a geeenie term.... "footprint"

The overall "predator footprint" is so large that full scale predator control is needed to turn around many big game and gamebird populations. It is very simple, there will be less and less game animals or gamebuirds available for hunters to hunt. We have shorter seasons, there are fewer hunters, and success is dropping in many formerly outsatanding hunting areas.

The environmentalists are winning folks.

[Dhoey07]

http://www.americanhunter.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2121&cid=47

Here's a couple quotes from this article.

"During the past 100 years, however, coyotes colonized North America's eastern corridor after gray wolves and red wolves were exterminated."

"That's because scientific research from eastern Canada to the southeastern U.S. shows coyote predation on fawns kill more deer than herds can replace in some areas."

This is what I've been saying about wolves helping deer populations. Wolves hit coyote populations hard. They don't tolerate competition from other canines. The fawns they save from coyotes will more than make up for the deer they kill themselves.  Personally, I'd rather have a half dozen to a dozen wolves in an area than a thousand coyotes. Besides fawns, game bird populations would increase too.

This is the good that wolves can do that many refuse to accept.

Don't you think that wolves would kill fawns before they turn to yotes?  Seems to me that fawns would be an easier meal.

[Special T]

http://www.lightforce.com/products/portable-systems

I have the scope mounted 100w one it will shine yotes out farther than i can see them. they say you can read abook about 600yards from the light. My bro in law has the hand held. Both are VERY bright. they are basically their offroad lights with different mounting hardware.

I remember reading/watching about midwest relationship between coyotes and deer. Lots of clubs go heavy on fruits that drop early to protect the deer. Dropped fruits substitute for deer killed. Since coyotes tend to fill any void where there is food, I'm unsure if fruit really helps save fawns, but i know it helps deer. 

[jdurham]

Yep! Hell at least when ever I lost any livestock to yotes "which has been very few over the years" I could go on a killing spree and thin them a little. With the wolves I would just get to sit and wait for tiny check for reimbursement! if!!! there was to even be funding for it. Then when they come back all I get to do is go collect another carcase or 2. Hell there has been packs in Montana that use to do killing sprees on livestock all the time. Get into a big flock of sheep and kill tons every night just for fun and the thrill of it. Shredded guard dogs and then go have a little fun killing with a full belly. Piss on the wolves being brought back we had a plenty healthy ecosystem without them here. There is a reason they were killed off because they are good for nothing! There is enough dang predators here already to take care of the "weak and old" haha my a$$. People always try to twist it into, oh they will help! What are they helping in any of the other states? is the fawn survival rate threw the roof? haha yeah right. Is the elk numbers booming? haha yeah right! Is the coyote population wiped out? hahaha yeah right. Is there no predation on livestock? hahahaha yeah right! Go try to pawn your wasted twisted info on some other people that don't have a brain. Not real sportsmen that understand the truth like we have on this site.   

[PA BEN]

I live on the west side now. ever time i go home to hunt i see more and more coyotes, in 2008 i saw 12 in one pack. the bucks and all deer numbers has gone down.

[jdurham]

I live on the west side now. ever time i go home to hunt i see more and more coyotes, in 2008 i saw 12 in one pack. the bucks and all deer numbers has gone down.

I used to pass on coyotes when I was hunting deer.  Now I smoke everyone I see.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

sorry your logic behind your thoughts has not been proven in any state that has wolves right now.

Why is Prince of Wales Island near Ketchikan the premier Sitka Blacktail hunting location then? It is infested with wolves and black bears. Deer and salmon are the main source of food for those two species.

It is estimated that 300-350 wolves live on the island. I've seen estimates of 10,000, that's right ten thousand black bears live on the island. Prince of Wales is about 2/3 the size of the Olympic Peninsula. If the wolf haters were correct about how much damage wolves do to cervids (not to mention bears), there wouldn't be a deer on Prince of Wales. But of course reality doesn't always live up to wild speculation.

Another interesting fact is, on Prince of Wales Island, the biggest killer of deer fawns is black bears, not wolves, by a very large margin. 

I understand the real concern about farm animal predation. People should be able to protect their property.  And problem animals should be dealt with swiftly and fatally. 

[Dhoey07]

sorry your logic behind your thoughts has not been proven in any state that has wolves right now.

Why is Prince of Wales Island near Ketchikan the premier Sitka Blacktail hunting location then? It is infested with wolves and black bears. Deer and salmon are the main source of food for those two species.

It is estimated that 300-350 wolves live on the island. I've seen estimates of 10,000, that's right ten thousand black bears live on the island. Prince of Wales is about 2/3 the size of the Olympic Peninsula. If the wolf haters were correct about how much damage wolves do to cervids (not to mention bears), there wouldn't be a deer on Prince of Wales. But of course reality doesn't always live up to wild speculation.

Another interesting fact is, on Prince of Wales Island, the biggest killer of deer fawns is black bears, not wolves, by a very large margin. 

I understand the real concern about farm animal predation. People should be able to protect their property.  And problem animals should be dealt with swiftly and fatally.

Different habitat and different hunting pressure

[Special T]

Not a very good comparison. Are you trying to say that the wolves here in wa are going to "fish" for thier meat?  ALL canivors are oportunists. If there is an easy meal they will take it...

I don't doubt that wolves kill for fun. Why? My brothers house cat is a killing machine, and it doesn't eat any mice. He just stacks them up by the door like cord wood.   

[Sitka_Blacktail]

sorry your logic behind your thoughts has not been proven in any state that has wolves right now.

Why is Prince of Wales Island near Ketchikan the premier Sitka Blacktail hunting location then? It is infested with wolves and black bears. Deer and salmon are the main source of food for those two species.

It is estimated that 300-350 wolves live on the island. I've seen estimates of 10,000, that's right ten thousand black bears live on the island. Prince of Wales is about 2/3 the size of the Olympic Peninsula. If the wolf haters were correct about how much damage wolves do to cervids (not to mention bears), there wouldn't be a deer on Prince of Wales. But of course reality doesn't always live up to wild speculation.

Another interesting fact is, on Prince of Wales Island, the biggest killer of deer fawns is black bears, not wolves, by a very large margin. 

I understand the real concern about farm animal predation. People should be able to protect their property.  And problem animals should be dealt with swiftly and fatally.

Different habitat and different hunting pressure

Hey, carpsniper said my theory has never been proved out anywhere. I pointed out that it has. Every time I point out that wolves don't wipe out their prey, somebody says ohhh but that's different.  I'll tell you the difference there, they get a heck of a lot more snow and that makes the deer more vulnerable. That should tip the balance to the predators even farther. But it doesn't.

You'd be surprised at the hunting pressure on POW. There are lots of roads and the limit is 4 deer per year.

Here's a couple of the local outfitters/guides

http://thornebaylodge.com/bear_hunting.html
http://thornebaylodge.com/deer_hunting.html

http://muskegexcursions.com/hunting/southeast_alaska_bear_hunting.htm
http://muskegexcursions.com/hunting/southeast_alaska_deer_hunting.htm

No shortage of deer there.

[Special T]

There is a HUGE difference between Correlation and Causation.  Just because 2 things seem to be joined together does not mean they are. There are exception on both sides. An island is a great way to study something because its more controllable. It does not make it the same as main land.

Would you be surprised to know that if you drink more than 8 cups of coffee a day you are 10x as likely to get in a serious car accident? That is a FACT! Now you say how can coffee kill you? Well i doubt it does. Alcoholics are HUGE consumers of coffee. As it turns out its the ALCOHOL that causes the accidents but one of the signs is large coffee consumption. 

Correlation is MUCH easier to prove than Causation. Media and people like to think they are the same...

[Dhoey07]

POW island in not the premier sitka black tail hunting location, that would be the ABC islands.  POW does have bigger bt in general but that is because they are running under optimun occupancy.  They also kill 1/3 of the wolf population every year, to try and keep them in check.  Only 6,000 people live there, so no they won't get the hunter pressure we do. 

[jdurham]

Prince of Whales Island is a poor comparison to the State of Washington.  Not similar in the most remote way.  Sad thing about the people that want the wolf here.  I bet 99% of them never get off their lazy asses and go look for a wolf!  Even those that do look for them will rarely see one.  How is this wolf population going to help save the woodland caribou they are trying to protect?  That should work well!

[Kowsrule30]

http://www.americanhunter.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2121&cid=47

Here's a couple quotes from this article.

"During the past 100 years, however, coyotes colonized North America's eastern corridor after gray wolves and red wolves were exterminated."

"That's because scientific research from eastern Canada to the southeastern U.S. shows coyote predation on fawns kill more deer than herds can replace in some areas."

This is what I've been saying about wolves helping deer populations. Wolves hit coyote populations hard. They don't tolerate competition from other canines. The fawns they save from coyotes will more than make up for the deer they kill themselves.  Personally, I'd rather have a half dozen to a dozen wolves in an area than a thousand coyotes. Besides fawns, game bird populations would increase too.

This is the good that wolves can do that many refuse to accept.

Sorry so late.....  But you're joking right?!!!!!!!  I sure hope so.... That's as close to comparing 1000 deer to half a dozen elk.... Minus the fact they don't eat each other.... POINTLESS!!!! 

[carpsniperg2]

Sitka you sure like comparing apples to oranges I think the other guys have summed up just what I would have said Good job guys

[jdurham]

http://www.americanhunter.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2121&cid=47

Here's a couple quotes from this article.

"During the past 100 years, however, coyotes colonized North America's eastern corridor after gray wolves and red wolves were exterminated."

"That's because scientific research from eastern Canada to the southeastern U.S. shows coyote predation on fawns kill more deer than herds can replace in some areas."

This is what I've been saying about wolves helping deer populations. Wolves hit coyote populations hard. They don't tolerate competition from other canines. The fawns they save from coyotes will more than make up for the deer they kill themselves.  Personally, I'd rather have a half dozen to a dozen wolves in an area than a thousand coyotes. Besides fawns, game bird populations would increase too.

This is the good that wolves can do that many refuse to accept.

Sorry so late.....  But you're joking right?!!!!!!!  I sure hope so.... That's as close to comparing 1000 deer to half a dozen elk.... Minus the fact they don't eat each other.... POINTLESS!!!!

So the wolves will kill the coyotes and ignore the fawns.  Now I understand NOT!

[PA BEN]

Hey, carpsniper said my theory has never been proved out anywhere. I pointed out that it has. Every time I point out that wolves don't wipe out their prey, somebody says ohhh but that's different.  I'll tell you the difference there, they get a heck of a lot more snow and that makes the deer more vulnerable. That should tip the balance to the predators even farther.[b] But it doesn't.[/b]
You'd be surprised at the hunting pressure on POW. There are lots of roads and the limit is 4 deer per year.


You have never seen snow crust over?? The deer break through and can't out run a dog let alone a coyote or a wolf. They run up along side bite the belley and rip it open.

[buckfvr]

Unfortunately we will all get to see the results.....and I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.  However, I think the only wolf advocate on this site will be the farthest from the truth.  He seems to have the persuasion of an anti......very unlike any of the rest of us here....very much like a plant.

[jdurham]

Hey, carpsniper said my theory has never been proved out anywhere. I pointed out that it has. Every time I point out that wolves don't wipe out their prey, somebody says ohhh but that's different.  I'll tell you the difference there, they get a heck of a lot more snow and that makes the deer more vulnerable. That should tip the balance to the predators even farther.[b] But it doesn't.[/b]
You'd be surprised at the hunting pressure on POW. There are lots of roads and the limit is 4 deer per year.


You have never seen snow crust over?? The deer break through and can't out run a dog let alone a coyote or a wolf. They run up along side bite the belley and rip it open.

 So Pa Ben why are you so in favor of the non native Grey wolf being introduced to Washington?