Breeders dealing with dysplasia

[pens fan]

Had one of my pups get a Penn Hip out of state and the owner claims the hips are really bad
since he wanted to breed himhe is not happy

Neither am i since both parents are good on thier OFAs
so I did some reading and asking and I found some things out
one is that even IF there is a solid 3 generations of cleared lineage there is still a 25 percent chance that dysplasia can rear its ugly head

Two is that dysplasia can come about not only genetically but can be brought on by
excessive weight from 3-10 months of age
excessive exercise in the early two years
And by injury

Speaking with my vet and his research no one seems to want to pin point dysplasia as a genetic disease

So

How can anyone guarantee a pup against dysplasia

[carpsniperg2]

Penn hip's are a lot more accurate then the ofa's. A lot of my sires have had penn hips done on them.

There is lot's of factors that can contribute to hip dysplasia, a lot of jumping in and out of trucks, over weight dogs etc.

It is really hard to trark the dysplasia because sometimes it comes more out of the blue then anything. Some crosses just tend to produce dogs with dysplasia. Even thought the parents are good or excellent rankings.

All you can do is guarantee the pups if a cross goes wrong then people will want things made right. I would get a letter from the people that did the test and see for yourself the results and go from there.

[Happy Gilmore]

There is the chance the films taken were not done by a good vet or simply didn't get a good shot of the hips. To resolve the situation it might be best to find a different vet who is well known for taking OFA films and pay to have it done. My friends the Meyers' (Rocking M) use a vet in Enumclaw and it costs only about $140 for hips and elbows films and I think it was $65 to send to OFA for review. I would start by having OFA done RIGHT AWAY. You pay for it as the breeder to get a second look and hopefully, they just had a bad angle on the x-ray and scored poorly. Also, have the dog sedated for the x-ray. Any movement can give marginal films which will score poorly. Also, hips should always be done before TWO years old and never within 2 months of being in season if, a female.

Penn Hip and OFA go back and forth. One "probably" isn't better than the other but, 100% of the breeders I know use OFA first. Penn Hip if the OFA doesn't come back decent.

I don't know what breed you have but, breeding two OFA "good" parents should never produce 25% of the puppies with hip problems. That is absurd. If a vet told you that they are probably the type that like to spay and nueter every dog that walks into their office.

[Happy Gilmore]

It is possible a loose joint set is due to injury but, as a breeder, that is a risk you should stand behind unless you want the "backyard" tag. Another thing to check is that the pup had regular vet visits. My young dogs' guarantee was not on paper but, the word from one of the top field trial breeders in the country. His agreement was that he got his regular vet visits, on time, once every six months for two years. If I didn't take him to the vet once every six months, the replacement guarantee for health was void. That way, a vet could check regularly that the pups weight was correct, he was growing at proper rates(food related) and was injury free.

[pens fan]

For the record this is a boykin i am referring to

The 25 percent part was for 3 solid generations
not jus a solid set of parents

It was75 percent for two solid parents

This was a vet giving a seminar at a dysplasia conference

Not sure of the credibility of this vet

The point is

How can anyone gaurantee this if it is easily brought on by the new owner

Its like guaranteeing they wont get a nosebleed

[wildweeds]

How old is the pup?

[Happy Gilmore]

If a breeder produced one out of four dogs with dysplasia, the breeder should be put down. I know of a bitch Chessie who has produced about 6 litters. One dog had mild dysplasia.

You can go look on the OFA website at a single dam, see all of the records of her pups which have been OFA'd. Usually, the more popular breeders place their dogs in competitive homes which almost guarantee the OFA will be done and test records are kept. Some breeders require it for the simple ability to track the quality of the bloodlines they are breeding.

If a breeder doesn't have this history or the bloodline doesn't show these types of results/records, it is a good line to avoid if you want the best chances at a healthy pup. I still think 25% dysplastic of all pups bred doesn't sound right. Responsible breeders would completely discountinue using that line of dogs if that occured.

[pens fan]

This may take a few posts

 Show details

But because more than one gene location and interaction is involved,it can skip generations or affect some puppies in a litter while sparing others. That is what makes the problem difficult for breeders to stamp out.

 Mike Richards, DVM

Vet info

The genetics of hip dysplasia are pretty complicated, since it is a disorder that is affected by the more than one gene and also by environmental influences, especially the weight of the puppy as it grows. However, the best advice seems to be to try to get information from multiple generations. The reason for this is that even when two dogs with hip dysplasia are bred, there are likely to be as many as 25% or more of the puppies who will have good hips despite their parent's problems. But these dogs have a much higher risk of passing on hip dysplasia to their offspring than if they had been from a breeding in which both parents had good or excellent hips. In that case, the odds of a puppy having good hips might be as high as 75% or more.

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[pens fan]

Continued

 I have attended one seminar in which this issue was discussed in detail and the person presenting the talk said that knowing only the parent's hip status improved your chances of getting a puppy without hip dysplasia only by about 25%. Knowing two generations improved the odds by about 50 to 75% and knowing three generations improved the chances to about 75%. These were not presented as hard facts, just as general guideline for the value of the information. She felt that even knowing more generations than this did not help in breeds prone to hip dysplasia but that it was obvious that with a large number of generations in which selection was made to eliminate carriers’ hip dysplasia could be eliminated.

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[pens fan]

I know you strive to the Nth degree to produce the highest quality dogs, Happy.

I am trying hard to do the same. But when I have two good solid dogs and they produce bad pup I get nervous about the future. This dog, or pup, was 16 months old when the Penn Hip was done. The owner said the vet took one look at him and said there was a problem just by his walk and stance. This pup had his adult weight before he was a year old and I know he’s been in training at an early age

[pens fan]

This is the only pup that I know of that got any checks for dysplasia. I keep up with all the pups I have sold and most everyone wanted a hunting dog and a family pet. None had any intentions of breeding. So, of the 40 some-odd pups I’ve sold, the only one who definitely should have come back good, didn’t.

So, my question still is, how can anyone guarantee hips given the recessive gene syndrome and the fact that the new owner can exasperate the problem all by themselves?

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[wildweeds]

At 16 months it is too soon to tell IMO,growth rate would be a concern,remember that goofy looking kid in the fifth grade that was all arms and legs?Some things grow faster than others but catch up in the end.

    Another question.......................was the pairing of the parents a linebreeding situation? If so one must always be aware  that the good will be magnified as well as the bad..............get the bads lined up together and you've got a cull.

 My vet an A+ cougar has expressed that the pennhip is superior to ofa as a breeders tool because it involves measurements, ofa is a radiologists "personal" interpratation of an X-ray film.

  The guy who bought the pup sounds like a ding a ling to me,you do NOT buy an 8 week old pup and assume it is a breeder..................because of who the parents are,who the breeder was.............. individual excellence is what makes a breeding quality animal.Sorting through a bunch to get the right one is a pain in the A$$,and a ton of work.My experiance tells me  one in 10 is worthy of reproduction,I am picky picky picky though.

[Happy Gilmore]

I'm not real keen on the percentages represented. I'd like to know where the numbers came from. Beyond that- labs and chessies have some excellent resources available to view pedigrees. View the pedigree, go back compare to OFA records, view the next "back" in the pedigree, review the OFA records until you get to the point the OFA database is no longer any help. At that point, you view the competetive record which is a good indicator.

Old timers would rarely, if ever invest time into a dog who showed symptoms of illness/disability. It was highly likely they'd not be in a competitve program nor, anywhere near a breeding program.

I use Lisa Van Loo's website extensively as a learning tool for bloodlines. People who breed healthy dogs have a lot of time invested in knowing as much as possible about what they are getting into with stud dogs or, their bitch line selection. I try. I'm no breeder and have yet to put a litter on the ground but, I can assure you, if I was buying a pup for more than $100 I'd know everything about the dog. I don't want to put a dog down at 5 years old because it can't walk. I don't want to see a dog go blind at 4 years old because the sire and dam never had their eyes checked. Sure, it costs a little bit of money but, it costs about what a little nickel want add pup will sell for to do an OFA on hips, CERF on eyes, PRA dna for eyes and even an EIC test. To sell a pup for more than a couple hundred bucks and NOT test is negligent.

http://www.chessieinfo.net/pp_search.htm

[Special T]

Thanks for posting that link up... I won't be breeding my Chessie chief but you sparked my curiosity as to his deeper lineage. 

[Happy Gilmore]

Thanks for posting that link up... I won't be breeding my Chessie chief but you sparked my curiosity as to his deeper lineage. 

what's his registered name again? gotta keep track of what Chessies around are still packing a pair.

[Ireland Farms]

The number I've heard is 7% if the pedigree has dogs passing their OFA's.

It's a great idea to have a guarantee in writing or on your website showing the requirements for a refund. With this economy, make sure you micro chip or have the buyer do it within a certain amount of time and get you the chip #, that way when the x-rays are done at 2 years of age, you can match the chip # to that of the actual dog and not just someone claiming the pup they got from you has dysplasia. It's great to think most people are honest, but getting things in writing are one way to be sure!

There are different reasons for dysplasia, and in my experience you really are only guaranteeing a buyer who plans to breed. Most everyone else likes that there is a guarantee, but doesn't bother with the necessary work, OFA fees, etc. in making sure their dog's hips are good. Fortunately I've not had any problems with clients having any problems with dysplasia in any of my dogs, but I know even at 7% it's bound to happen.

[Happy Gilmore]

The number I've heard is 7% if the pedigree has dogs passing their OFA's.

It's a great idea to have a guarantee in writing or on your website showing the requirements for a refund. With this economy, make sure you micro chip or have the buyer do it within a certain amount of time and get you the chip #, that way when the x-rays are done at 2 years of age, you can match the chip # to that of the actual dog and not just someone claiming the pup they got from you has dysplasia. It's great to think most people are honest, but getting things in writing are one way to be sure!

There are different reasons for dysplasia, and in my experience you really are only guaranteeing a buyer who plans to breed. Most everyone else likes that there is a guarantee, but doesn't bother with the necessary work, OFA fees, etc. in making sure their dog's hips are good. Fortunately I've not had any problems with clients having any problems with dysplasia in any of my dogs, but I know even at 7% it's bound to happen.

The dog must be microchipped to get an OFA#. The vet taking the film confirms the microchip and writes it on the paperwork and films. Same with CERF. PRA is DNA so, nothing there. This is why it is a good practice for the breeders to 'chip the pups.

[Schmalzfam]

I was looking for information on supplements to help with hip dysplasia and came across this thread.

I think maybe my experience can help shine a little light on this.

I got a girl from some older lineage, in 2007.
She went into training at 6 months and was showing great stuff.
When she turned 9 months, I had Penn hip done to get an idea as I didn't want to put money into a dog who may have dysplasia or be prone to it-previous experience from another dog.
Penn hip came back and based on that info, I was sad...
She had OFA's done at 2, first results showed she had elbow dysplasia,  and her hips were fair.
Bummed!!
But, I kinda knew she wasn't going to be excellent based on the Penn Hip.
I wasn't happy with the elbow films, they weren't clear and she had a rice like object in her elbow.
Come to find out this was her micro chip. It migrated that far.
Had the films done at a later time and the chip moved more.
This made the film a lot better!
OFA then gave her a normal on the what was supposedly a bad elbow!
Anyways, I would do Penn Hip, as to my experience it was very accurate.
She is almost 10 and definitely has been showing signs of hip dysplasia for the last 3 years or so. It is the hip that Penn Hip determined at 9 months was most likely to become affected.
It's hard to look at lineage etc and base your decision solely on the OFA results. Most people don't bother with it or they choose to hide negative results...since they offer that option.

Just a little input, based on my first hand experience.

If you don't mind me asking, what was the outcome of this male Boykin?