story on Whites, Kehne and my question?

[denali]

Mike Cenci, the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife’s chief of enforcement

“Certainly, where wolves are concerned, I think that poaching has had a big impact on recovery,” Cenci said. “Who knows how many wolves were poached before our agency agreed to recognize that they were present. Some were probably rmistaken for coyotes, at least initially.”

How long and how many wolves did they know existed before the were forced to come clean.??   I want to give the department the benefit of the doubt but statements like this make it hard.   maybe I'm over reacting 

http://crosscut.com/2012/05/22/animals-wildlife/108683/wolf-poaching-in-the-northwest/

[Huntbear]

Wolves have been in this state for years... crossing back and forth from Canada to start with....  It was when the state started transplanting but still denying, that it became an issue of believability.

[Special T]

 

They lost thier trust from me. Time to clean house... Look up some of Wolfbaits posts. He has posted lots of articles from newspapers around the area on the west side that talk about wolf sitings. 

[humanure]

It was when the state started transplanting

The fact that you guys still push this baseless, proofless rumor is beyond me.

[pianoman9701]

Wolves have been in this state for years... crossing back and forth from Canada to start with....  It was when the state started transplanting but still denying, that it became an issue of believability.

I don't believe this because it would be professional suicide to have done it. If you can prove that wolves were transplanted, you've got your solution to changing over the management of the DFW. They'd be fired immediately, anyone involved all the way to the top. Criminal charges would be filed. There's a very specific procedure to follow and they just haven't had the budget to do it.

There's never been any need for transplanting. The movement of wolves from Yellowstone, Alberta, BC and ID is well documented through radio collars. With all of these populations increasing at a rate of 30%= plus per year, they have all the wolves they need moving into WA.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match with people on the same side of the fence as me on this issue, Huntbear. But I've personally interviewed representatives from the DFW, the USFWS, the NFS, and the NPS about that specific question and don't believe there have been transplants in WA, at least not by the authorities in WA or the feds. Hybrids and wolf Haven types wolves - could be another story altogether.

[SemperFidelis97]

I personally believe the wolves we are dealing with originated in the yellowstone reintroduction as well.  That being said the state severly abrogated their responsiblities in identifying, and managing wolves until they became a problem they couldn't ignore.  Cenci says it in the article "Who knows how many wolves were poached before our agency agreed to recognize they were present"  I think that its easy for allot of people who haven't seen the impact wolves are having to write them off as a necessary part of our ecosystem.  When in fact they are doing harm in many area's that with a continued presence of wolves may never recover.  Unfortunately as in the case with that cougar in CA you cannot convince someone who's ideas on ecosystems, and wildlife management are based on what they have seen in a Disney cartoon rather than real life science.

[pianoman9701]

I personally believe the wolves we are dealing with originated in the yellowstone reintroduction as well.  That being said the state severly abrogated their responsiblities in identifying, and managing wolves until they became a problem they couldn't ignore.  Cenci says it in the article "Who knows how many wolves were poached before our agency agreed to recognize they were present"  I think that its easy for allot of people who haven't seen the impact wolves are having to write them off as a necessary part of our ecosystem.  When in fact they are doing harm in many area's that with a continued presence of wolves may never recover.  Unfortunately as in the case with that cougar in CA you cannot convince someone who's ideas on ecosystems, and wildlife management are based on what they have seen in a Disney cartoon rather than real life science.

Agreed on all points.

[humanure]

Good points.

[JODakota]

Good points.

Uh oh humanure is back.....lol

[Huntbear]

Wolves have been in this state for years... crossing back and forth from Canada to start with....  It was when the state started transplanting but still denying, that it became an issue of believability.

I don't believe this because it would be professional suicide to have done it. If you can prove that wolves were transplanted, you've got your solution to changing over the management of the DFW. They'd be fired immediately, anyone involved all the way to the top. Criminal charges would be filed. There's a very specific procedure to follow and they just haven't had the budget to do it.

There's never been any need for transplanting. The movement of wolves from Yellowstone, Alberta, BC and ID is well documented through radio collars. With all of these populations increasing at a rate of 30%= plus per year, they have all the wolves they need moving into WA.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match with people on the same side of the fence as me on this issue, Huntbear. But I've personally interviewed representatives from the DFW, the USFWS, the NFS, and the NPS about that specific question and don't believe there have been transplants in WA, at least not by the authorities in WA or the feds. Hybrids and wolf Haven types wolves - could be another story altogether.

Ask Idaho F&G about that.. they completely banned the importation and planting of wolves...  the head of the F&G did it anyway, and lost his job, and is fighting for his life in court.. but kind of like closing the barn door after the horses get out.  This is from the Wolf guy that spoke at CWU with Kehne...

[WAcoyotehunter]

Good points.

Uh oh humanure is back.....lol

Yep- everyone get ready for some serious enlightenment. 

WDFW did not put wolves in WA.  The genetics are really clear...they have been here for a while, and they have bee moving here for a while...on their own.

[Elkaholic daWg]

 

They lost thier trust from me. Time to clean house... Look up some of Wolfbaits posts. He has posted lots of articles from newspapers around the area on the west side that talk about wolf sitings. 

 

 Agreed

[humanure]

Good points.

Uh oh humanure is back.....lol

Yep- everyone get ready for some serious enlightenment. 

WDFW did not put wolves in WA.  The genetics are really clear...they have been here for a while, and they have bee moving here for a while...on their own.

And because they have been here for at least 20-30 years(I honestly feel they they were never fully driven up to Canada to begin with, but that my theory), that means that they have adapted to the eco-system and are now native species(like they were before).

[nwwanderer]

The wolfer meeeting I attended in Yakima last fall was full of I do not know and how could this happen from the WDFW.  They openly discussed that they felt no management would need to occur before 2020.  Many still feel the same.
The genetic report I read from the wolf road killed in Spokane county some years ago said a blend of transplanted Alberta and walk over BC genetics, I have never seen an official report from WDFW. 
These beasties have a range and habit that can put Idaho, Montana and maybe Wyoming individuals here at any time.
 A farmer killed a wolf coming out of a livestock barn a year or so ago less than a half a mile into Idaho, recieved a warning ticket for not reporting the kill in a timely manner.  Did Washington and Idaho cooperate and report to local producers the situation?  Not a word. 
I know you are tired of hearing it, they are here, not going away with the tools we have and the seperation of political boundaries does not allow useful management.  It is a never ending story that no agency has a budget to support.

[BOWHUNTER45]

Good points.

Uh oh humanure is back.....lol

WTH .....But I am not 

[bearpaw]

Myself and my guides have been seeing occasional wolf tracks in NE WA since the late 80's or early 90's. We'd see them every year or two in the winter, but usually just a few traveling together, we never saw tracks of large packs.

It is also common knowledge that a local wolf hybrid breeder opened the kennel doors and turned all his wolve hybrids loose in GMU 121. Local people say several have been shot but not all of them. Because wolfbait and others have talked about eyewitness accounts of wolves being turned loose, I highly suspect that other wolf breeders and possibly wolf groups have turned hybrids or wolves loose around the state.

I doubt the state has attempted to turn any wolves loose. Wolves have been documented to suddenly strike out and cover country, a good example is the wolf from NE Oregon that is now in California, and the wolf that went from Yellowstone to NW Montana, then all the way to Colorado in 6 months. It is nothing for these wolves to move around from state to state. Wolves from NE WA or from the Methow could easily turn up anywhere in WA.

[Special T]

There are 2 very big differences in behavior that do NOT match up, and are never explained... Like BP said,  nearly all of the sitings were of just a couple of wolves. They stayed in the woods and were mostly seen in the winter.   We now see larger packs roaming areas that are not deep in the woods like before...  I would argue that we have 2 different kinds of wolves in this state. From the differences in observation we have wolves that are/were in this state that did live balanced in the Eco-system... It has only been in the last 10 or so years that we have seen the explosion of large packs disseminating form the Yellowstone area. Sightings are just a snapshot of what is going on, so it is harder to "Certify" what is going on. But it is safe to say that a major social change is more likely from a different kind of wolf than some kind of evolution in the wolves that were already here.   

[WAcoyotehunter]

They lost thier trust from me. Time to clean house... Look up some of Wolfbaits posts. He has posted lots of articles from newspapers around the area on the west side that talk about wolf sitings. 

 

 Agreed

You're kidding right?  Wolfbait never provided anything to the site...he made outrageous claims without any evidence...at all... I wonder how his big court date is going? He was going to prove it to the world in court if I remember correctly.

[Special T]

Well you are referring to his claims of wolves being transplanted... I'm referring to the VOLUMES of news articles that talked about wolves. Especially the ones that talked about wolves in WA during the period that the state said there was none... I won't argue the case about transplanting here in WA. What i would argue is that we had wolves here before this so called "recovery". That and the "Experimental transplant" of wolves to YNP did not use the same kinds of wolves that are/were in the Rockies and Cascaides.  To me it is like trying to convince someone that a steel head is the same  as a Chinook salmon... Yes they are both salmonoids but they are not the same...  The state recognizes the differences in salmon but not for wolves...   

I personally think it is irrelevant to argue if they are transplanted... I think the ESA is about $$$ for lawyers, and activism for wacko environmentalists... I think to really solve the issue we new 2 things.. Rob McKenna as Gov, and to scrap the ESA. 

[Humptulips]

The wolfer meeeting I attended in Yakima last fall was full of I do not know and how could this happen from the WDFW.  They openly discussed that they felt no management would need to occur before 2020.  Many still feel the same.

In a meeting with Donny Martorella I had a different impression. He seemed real worried they did not have the tools available to control their numbers. He talked about snares and of course they are illegal in WA.
Reading between the lines he implied something would need to be done sooner rather then later.

[GrainfedMuley]

It was when the state started transplanting

The fact that you guys still push this baseless, proofless rumor is beyond me.

They collared a wolf in the northeast part of Washington 2 years ago. Took a DNA sample and thew DNA goes back to a pack in the Grand Teton National Park. That's an awful long ways for a wolf to travel on it's own without help. Yes WE ALL believe that the state planted some here.

[Elkaholic daWg]

Well you are referring to his claims of wolves being transplanted... I'm referring to the VOLUMES of news articles that talked about wolves. Especially the ones that talked about wolves in WA during the period that the state said there was none... I won't argue the case about transplanting here in WA. What i would argue is that we had wolves here before this so called "recovery". That and the "Experimental transplant" of wolves to YNP did not use the same kinds of wolves that are/were in the Rockies and Cascaides.  To me it is like trying to convince someone that a steel head is the same  as a Chinook salmon... Yes they are both salmonoids but they are not the same...  The state recognizes the differences in salmon but not for wolves...   

I personally think it is irrelevant to argue if they are transplanted... I think the ESA is about $$$ for lawyers, and activism for wacko environmentalists... I think to really solve the issue we new 2 things.. Rob McKenna as Gov, and to scrap the ESA. 

x2

[CAMPMEAT]

Dale,
A freind of mine saw 5 wolves cross the road in front of him when has was grading a road up near Smackout Pass. He said it was a couple weeks ago.
Campmeat

[bobcat]

Yes WE ALL believe that the state planted some here.

That's not true. I don't believe that and I know of many others who don't. Look back about 8 posts and you'll see where Bearpaw said he "doubts the state has attempted to turn any wolves loose."

[pianoman9701]

It was when the state started transplanting

The fact that you guys still push this baseless, proofless rumor is beyond me.

They collared a wolf in the northeast part of Washington 2 years ago. Took a DNA sample and thew DNA goes back to a pack in the Grand Teton National Park. That's an awful long ways for a wolf to travel on it's own without help. Yes WE ALL believe that the state planted some here.

Not sure what you mean by we. I don't believe it. And wolves can travel a thousand miles or more on their own, in a relatively short period of time.

[Special T]

I just went back and checked. The last 30 posted he made back in Jan of 11 were all 3rd party documentation. His first post back in june of 09 and he was talking about wolves back then and starting to gather and post information on wolves...

I would not be surprised if SOMEONE was releasing wolves... WHO? Wouldn't know... But wouldn't you agree that it is odd that several people in different areas are describing the same kinds of activities? 

I do think arguing about it detracks from many of the facts that should be addressed.   Maybe if the WDFW acted more like our champion people would not  believe such things?  Because the WDFW is a political agency and does not really support hunters it makes it a lot easier for me to think that they may be involved...

[Elkaholic daWg]

 Seems to me  he got the TWG2 kind of send off here since certain folks took offense to his  posts, since many were not PC. and some here are so naive (sp) that they, well, forget it! I run into him on HFNW

[GrainfedMuley]

It was when the state started transplanting

The fact that you guys still push this baseless, proofless rumor is beyond me.

They collared a wolf in the northeast part of Washington 2 years ago. Took a DNA sample and thew DNA goes back to a pack in the Grand Teton National Park. That's an awful long ways for a wolf to travel on it's own without help. Yes WE ALL believe that the state planted some here.

Not sure what you mean by we. I don't believe it. And wolves can travel a thousand miles or more on their own, in a relatively short period of time.

OK, wrong wording........I believe the state planted wolves. This liberal state, it would not suprise me at all.

[pianoman9701]

It was when the state started transplanting

The fact that you guys still push this baseless, proofless rumor is beyond me.

They collared a wolf in the northeast part of Washington 2 years ago. Took a DNA sample and thew DNA goes back to a pack in the Grand Teton National Park. That's an awful long ways for a wolf to travel on it's own without help. Yes WE ALL believe that the state planted some here.

Not sure what you mean by we. I don't believe it. And wolves can travel a thousand miles or more on their own, in a relatively short period of time.

OK, wrong wording........I believe the state planted wolves. This liberal state, it would not suprise me at all.

If you can prove it, you can probably have federal charges filed against any involved. Just sayin, there's way too much risk for a gobmit employee to do this without taking the required steps. And, the movement of Yellowstone wolves has been tracked into WA and OR with radio collars. Why is that so hard to believe?

[Special T]

I think it is a more usefull and profitable argument that the wolves transported to YNP  were not done properly.  The USFS did not follow the proper steps OR reintroduce the proper kind of wolf to the area... As a result the few wolves that were here were overrun by these competing canines... We should make the argument that  because of this there should be open season on them.

[pianoman9701]

I think it is a more usefull and profitable argument that the wolves transported to YNP  were not done properly.  The USFS did not follow the proper steps OR reintroduce the proper kind of wolf to the area... As a result the few wolves that were here were overrun by these competing canines... We should make the argument that  because of this there should be open season on them.

With the wolf-friendly DFW? Good luck with that.

[Special T]

I think that our sales pitch will be more effective on the general public, and with a new Gov than with the WDFW... Shake up the WDFW and they might be a little more interested in listening to us tho. 

[pianoman9701]

The 90% of the liberal public who never goes into the woods and think wolves are cuddly? This would be another "good luck with that" moment. Most people can't understand that these animals will change not only the face of hunting, but will end up threatening even little Fido in their backyard.

[Special T]

First off i disagree with the 90% lib statement. There are lots of people who vote for the Big D because they are union, or they always have...  You will NEVER change their mind if you don't try. I would argue that it is the metro areas that are the most ignorant, and while they make a a huge portion of the population in this state it is not even close to 90%. 

[stihlpro]

If you look at it, the public would not support this.  When Olympia was asking for public comment on the budget shortfall, they recieved 3,000 comments and opinions from the entire state.  When the WDFW asked for comments on the Wolf Management plan, they recieved 65,000................. it seems like the "public" cares an awful lot about wolves........whether they are informed or not.

[pianoman9701]

First off i disagree with the 90% lib statement. There are lots of people who vote for the Big D because they are union, or they always have...  You will NEVER change their mind if you don't try. I would argue that it is the metro areas that are the most ignorant, and while they make a a huge portion of the population in this state it is not even close to 90%. 

Go for it then. Put out a message to the general public. For every dollar you spend, Conservation NW, Defenders of Wildlife, and the HSUS will spend $10.

We went to the public about bait and hound hunting, didn't we? How did that work, T? This is an even more volatile issue with the grey wolf being an endangered species in the western 2/3s of the state and wolf lovers willing to spend incredible amounts of $ to support their side.

I don't like it at all. I'm just being a realist. The general public is heavily weighed on the pro-wolf side.