Post by: wolfbait on February 08, 2019, 09:08:38 AM
http://nwsportsmanmag.com/wdfw-looking-for-comments-on-9-proposed-fish-wildlife-acquisitions/?fbclid=IwAR1bfzHAElNM0Pou4T2jtTYgexybJCycL6LQwIPCRYuCW2x1ttg9-CNWI80
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on February 08, 2019, 09:15:20 AM
Post by: Stein on February 08, 2019, 09:20:33 AM
:tup:
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on February 08, 2019, 09:52:09 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 08, 2019, 10:42:30 AM
Post by: bracer40 on February 08, 2019, 11:25:32 AM
Can we please keep this garbage in the wolf thread! Public land Acquisitions are a good thing that benefit all citizens. Your wolf hate is exhausting and annoying. Keep it in the wolf section we're all tired of listening to it.
:yeah:
Post by: wolfbait on February 08, 2019, 01:40:54 PM
Can we please keep this garbage in the wolf thread! Public land Acquisitions are a good thing that benefit all citizens. Your wolf hate is exhausting and annoying. Keep it in the wolf section we're all tired of listening to it.
I see WDF&Wolves are buying up the Rest of the Golden Doe, it use to be great deer hunting and winter range, now there are very few deer but lots of wolves. Very sad to watch a once great herd whittled down to nothing because of a corrupt wolf loving agency.
Post by: WSU on February 08, 2019, 01:49:57 PM
Can we please keep this garbage in the wolf thread! Public land Acquisitions are a good thing that benefit all citizens. Your wolf hate is exhausting and annoying. Keep it in the wolf section we're all tired of listening to it.
I see WDF&Wolves are buying up the Rest of the Golden Doe, it use to be great deer hunting and winter range, now there are very few deer but lots of wolves. Very sad to watch a once great herd whittled down to nothing because of a corrupt wolf loving agency.
I'm not sure Wolfbait is listening...
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 08, 2019, 02:05:54 PM
dont think he cares. Just keeps spewing click bait with no substance. I'm continually Blown Away how a guy can hate an animal so much for just being an animal that they let it consume their whole existence :dunno: I'm tired of seeing it! I ignored the wolf forum for a reason but it is allowed to spew into other areas :dunno:Can we please keep this garbage in the wolf thread! Public land Acquisitions are a good thing that benefit all citizens. Your wolf hate is exhausting and annoying. Keep it in the wolf section we're all tired of listening to it.
I see WDF&Wolves are buying up the Rest of the Golden Doe, it use to be great deer hunting and winter range, now there are very few deer but lots of wolves. Very sad to watch a once great herd whittled down to nothing because of a corrupt wolf loving agency.
I'm not sure Wolfbait is listening...
Post by: GoldenRing270 on February 08, 2019, 02:15:16 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on February 08, 2019, 02:16:02 PM
dont think he cares. Just keeps spewing click bait with no substance. I'm continually Blown Away how a guy can hate an animal so much for just being an animal that they let it consume their whole existence :dunno: I'm tired of seeing it! I ignored the wolf forum for a reason but it is allowed to spew into other areas :dunno:Can we please keep this garbage in the wolf thread! Public land Acquisitions are a good thing that benefit all citizens. Your wolf hate is exhausting and annoying. Keep it in the wolf section we're all tired of listening to it.
I see WDF&Wolves are buying up the Rest of the Golden Doe, it use to be great deer hunting and winter range, now there are very few deer but lots of wolves. Very sad to watch a once great herd whittled down to nothing because of a corrupt wolf loving agency.
I'm not sure Wolfbait is listening...
I agree Karl, there comes a point that you lose credibility and his posts are beyond that point.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 08, 2019, 02:20:07 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on February 08, 2019, 02:26:16 PM
Beyond is a gross understatement :chuckle:
Next thread could be titled "Wolves created upcoming snow storm to make it easier to kill deer and elk" :bash:
Post by: bigtex on February 08, 2019, 02:50:43 PM
Can we please keep this garbage in the wolf thread! Public land Acquisitions are a good thing that benefit all citizens. Your wolf hate is exhausting and annoying. Keep it in the wolf section we're all tired of listening to it.:yeah:
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: wolfbait on February 08, 2019, 04:32:26 PM
That Central Ferry land buy would be really great. That whole area is getting planted into orchard- it will be good to get it set aside and opened up for hunting
I wonder will WDF&Wolves predator fence these new "WILDLIFE ACQUISITIONS"? Because if they don't the uncontrolled predators will take care of any hunting that might have been "set aside".
Post by: hunter399 on February 08, 2019, 07:47:15 PM
Ya the way these wolf people are.There won't be any hunting in about ten years.so I agree.That Central Ferry land buy would be really great. That whole area is getting planted into orchard- it will be good to get it set aside and opened up for hunting
I wonder will WDF&Wolves predator fence these new "WILDLIFE ACQUISITIONS"? Because if they don't the uncontrolled predators will take care of any hunting that might have been "set aside".
Post by: cbond3318 on February 08, 2019, 08:33:24 PM
That Central Ferry land buy would be really great. That whole area is getting planted into orchard- it will be good to get it set aside and opened up for hunting
:yeah: lots of once prime winter habitat turned now into fenced orchard. This would be a small but positive purchase.
Post by: idahohuntr on February 08, 2019, 09:13:34 PM
You are wildly uninformed if you believe wolves will end hunting in 10 years...or ever.Ya the way these wolf people are.There won't be any hunting in about ten years.so I agree.That Central Ferry land buy would be really great. That whole area is getting planted into orchard- it will be good to get it set aside and opened up for hunting
I wonder will WDF&Wolves predator fence these new "WILDLIFE ACQUISITIONS"? Because if they don't the uncontrolled predators will take care of any hunting that might have been "set aside".
We can just put this next to wolfbaits post proclaiming there would be no elk hunting in idaho by 2012 because of wolves. :chuckle:
Post by: mfswallace on February 08, 2019, 09:59:17 PM
You are wildly uninformed if you believe wolves will end hunting in 10 years...or ever.Ya the way these wolf people are.There won't be any hunting in about ten years.so I agree.That Central Ferry land buy would be really great. That whole area is getting planted into orchard- it will be good to get it set aside and opened up for hunting
I wonder will WDF&Wolves predator fence these new "WILDLIFE ACQUISITIONS"? Because if they don't the uncontrolled predators will take care of any hunting that might have been "set aside".
We can just put this next to wolfbaits post proclaiming there would be no elk hunting in idaho by 2012 because of wolves. :chuckle:
Just drastically reduced or in some areas eliminated tags but nothing to see here as always....
Sometimes its a stretch or to focused on wolves but someone needs keep all predator issues front and center so others can't just dismiss it...
Post by: Buckhunter82 on February 08, 2019, 11:56:39 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 09, 2019, 06:44:00 AM
This forum needs rules to restrict criticism of wolves. Too many pro-wolfers are getting offended.not offended and not pro wolf but cool story. Just beyond annoyed by wolfbait. EVERY is about wolves. Wdfw could plant trout for a youth fishing day and had find a way to make it something negative and related to wolves. It's just old. Click bait is annoying regardless of subject. I refuse to accept that if you dont HATE all things wolf and wdfw that you are a wolf lover. That's the most narrow sighted and ignorant way to approach any topic and it immediately turns people off to your point of view and ends any useful conversation.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on February 09, 2019, 07:23:28 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on February 09, 2019, 08:18:22 AM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on February 09, 2019, 08:32:18 AM
Wolf issues should be discussed in the context of management (or lack thereof)...labeling wolves as evil or horrible is just silly. They are a wild animal...not some vile enemy out to destroy America. Same with these pro-wolf/wolf lover labels being applied to hunters...absolutely ridiculous.
The leftist controlled WDFW is out to destroy Washington State hunting and the vile democrats are enemies out to destroy America..... :tup:
Post by: hunter399 on February 09, 2019, 08:43:39 AM
I didn't say wolves themselves will end hunting .You are wildly uninformed if you believe wolves will end hunting in 10 years...or ever.Ya the way these wolf people are.There won't be any hunting in about ten years.so I agree.That Central Ferry land buy would be really great. That whole area is getting planted into orchard- it will be good to get it set aside and opened up for hunting
I wonder will WDF&Wolves predator fence these new "WILDLIFE ACQUISITIONS"? Because if they don't the uncontrolled predators will take care of any hunting that might have been "set aside".
We can just put this next to wolfbaits post proclaiming there would be no elk hunting in idaho by 2012 because of wolves. :chuckle:
It's the environmental groups ,political groups,and just plain anti hunting groups that will.we have a lot of groups of people against hunting right now .And some how you think it's gonna get better in ten years.
Post by: elkboy on February 09, 2019, 08:48:15 AM
When hunting is your life’s passion and heritage and something destroys it in your family’s legacy area you may adopt a cause to fight that evil. Can’t fault the passion.
I agree. I think it's great people are passionate. But you have to approach management issues in a way that doesn't lose your audience. Also, if people redirected a quarter of the anger aimed at wolves to issues like development of winter range, lack of appropriate forest management in the East Cascades and Blues, energy development, and the never-ending push to divest our public lands, I think we would be in a better place. The single-minded focus on wolves is more about our prejudices as a species, and less about the whole range of management issues. And disclaimer: I do think predator management is important. It's just not the only thing!!!
And last, back the point of the thread, awesome on the land purchase. Public land, public hunting.
Post by: ribka on February 09, 2019, 10:27:57 AM
It’s easy to deride this as anti wolf hysteria but a logical examination of all facts indicates there is a justifiable concern on the behalf of sportsmen.
You are wildly uninformed if you believe wolves will end hunting in 10 years...or ever.Ya the way these wolf people are.There won't be any hunting in about ten years.so I agree.That Central Ferry land buy would be really great. That whole area is getting planted into orchard- it will be good to get it set aside and opened up for hunting
I wonder will WDF&Wolves predator fence these new "WILDLIFE ACQUISITIONS"? Because if they don't the uncontrolled predators will take care of any hunting that might have been "set aside".
We can just put this next to wolfbaits post proclaiming there would be no elk hunting in idaho by 2012 because of wolves. :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 09, 2019, 10:48:26 AM
As mentioned it’s not just the wolves but the combination of anti hunting groups like conservation NW, Sierra club, PETA etc that are actively getting predator hunting seasons and areas shut down so there is no management of expanding predator populations. Mule deer moose and elk herds are already stressed enough. USFW and WDFW continue to lie about predator numbers and deer and elk numbers.ok but claiming wdfw is acquiring additional public land soley for the sake of wolves is dumb and agenda driven by the OP. Its clickbait and fake news.
It’s easy to deride this as anti wolf hysteria but a logical examination of all facts indicates there is a justifiable concern on the behalf of sportsmen.You are wildly uninformed if you believe wolves will end hunting in 10 years...or ever.Ya the way these wolf people are.There won't be any hunting in about ten years.so I agree.That Central Ferry land buy would be really great. That whole area is getting planted into orchard- it will be good to get it set aside and opened up for hunting
I wonder will WDF&Wolves predator fence these new "WILDLIFE ACQUISITIONS"? Because if they don't the uncontrolled predators will take care of any hunting that might have been "set aside".
We can just put this next to wolfbaits post proclaiming there would be no elk hunting in idaho by 2012 because of wolves. :chuckle:
Post by: idahohuntr on February 09, 2019, 11:41:18 AM
Good clarification...because wolves and predators will not be the demise of hunting. I agree that politics, anti-hunters, etc. are a more substantive threat to the future of hunting. In WA state I think its important to make certain hunters have the reputation of being respectful, well informed folks who are sincere about conservation of all wildlife. If we allow the extremists to be the image of hunters...the middle 80% of the population that votes will not be kind to us. You look at how these gun law initiatives go in this state - and it scares the hell out of me what a PETA might try and get on the ballot...and if our image is portrayed as a bunch of hillbillies who want to poison, trap, and kill every wolf in the state simply so we can shoot more of bambi's dad...we don't stand even a small chance.I didn't say wolves themselves will end hunting .You are wildly uninformed if you believe wolves will end hunting in 10 years...or ever.Ya the way these wolf people are.There won't be any hunting in about ten years.so I agree.That Central Ferry land buy would be really great. That whole area is getting planted into orchard- it will be good to get it set aside and opened up for hunting
I wonder will WDF&Wolves predator fence these new "WILDLIFE ACQUISITIONS"? Because if they don't the uncontrolled predators will take care of any hunting that might have been "set aside".
We can just put this next to wolfbaits post proclaiming there would be no elk hunting in idaho by 2012 because of wolves. :chuckle:
It's the environmental groups ,political groups,and just plain anti hunting groups that will.we have a lot of groups of people against hunting right now .And some how you think it's gonna get better in ten years.
This is why I think it's important to call out BS pushed by really extreme folks regarding wolves and other predators. Let the other side be known for their ridiculous tree spiking extremist views...we can't afford to have a hint of that image among our ranks - not in this state anyways. :twocents:
Post by: jackelope on February 09, 2019, 12:21:14 PM
Anti-hunters, division among hunters, politics, a lack of support for the org’s that are working to promote and support hunting...those are the concerns we need to focus more of our time on in order to preserve our pastime moving forward.
:twocents:
Post by: Brute on February 09, 2019, 12:29:17 PM
Can we please keep this garbage in the wolf thread! Public land Acquisitions are a good thing that benefit all citizens. Your wolf hate is exhausting and annoying. Keep it in the wolf section we're all tired of listening to it.
Here is a concept : If you don't like what he post. Put him on your Buddies / Ignore List in your Profile.
Then you will not have to see what he post :twocents:
Post by: Buckhunter82 on February 09, 2019, 12:56:34 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on February 09, 2019, 01:19:55 PM
Post by: Pinetar on February 09, 2019, 01:34:30 PM
Predators won’t end hunting. If we keep going with our predator populations it will put a serious dent in hunter success. I won’t deny that. I think wolves will play a part in that moving forward. Not as big a part as cougars and coyotes and over-hunting do for a long time anyway. We’ll still be able to hunt. We just won’t have anything to shoot.
Anti-hunters, division among hunters, politics, a lack of support for the org’s that are working to promote and support hunting...those are the concerns we need to focus more of our time on in order to preserve our pastime moving forward.
:twocents:
:yeah: Well said!!
Post by: bobcat on February 09, 2019, 03:06:55 PM
Post by: bigmacc on February 09, 2019, 07:52:18 PM
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
Post by: Bob33 on February 09, 2019, 08:07:16 PM
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
Post by: wolfbait on February 09, 2019, 08:23:26 PM
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.
WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.
Post by: jackelope on February 09, 2019, 08:53:38 PM
There are lots of reasons to support more public land. Hunting is just one of them.
Post by: bigmacc on February 10, 2019, 04:43:32 PM
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
Well, I am far from ignorant and I don't think anywhere in my statement did I blame the decline on a "single factor". I agree there are many elements that have contributed but it is also not a coincidence that the decline actually started with the predator population going up and a new apex predator that arrived on the scene, at least in this state. Thats when we started noticing the decline, new laws on the books concerning our already established predators and as I said, a new one appearing and left to populate. Something has to give, an exploding predator population along with a growing population of the wolf, guess what they all have to eat and with populations of these predators on the rise they will eat more and more, in the last 20 years it has been noticed, another 5, 10 or 20 years, at this rate no one really knows what will be left. The Methow herd has been devastated, many factors are to blame but this herd has taken the biggest beating by an exploding predator issue combined with a Department that has put other priorities ahead of putting forth a "quality product" for the hunters of this state. Yes Mother Nature has hit our herds through the years just as she has since the beginning of time and will continue to do so for the rest of time, but how things are "managed" is what will and has determined the health of our herds, whether it be during predator explosions or when Mother Nature shows her bad side. In a nutshell, predators, Mother Nature and other factors are happening, and what we are seeing in our big game herds is a result of "managing" through these issues or as some are saying, mis-managing..... :twocents:
Post by: jackelope on February 10, 2019, 04:48:39 PM
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
Well, I am far from ignorant and I don't think anywhere in my statement did I blame the decline on a "single factor". I agree there are many elements that have contributed but it is also not a coincidence that the decline actually started with the predator population going up and a new apex predator that arrived on the scene, at least in this state. Thats when we started noticing the decline, new laws on the books concerning our already established predators and as I said, a new one appearing and left to populate. Something has to give, an exploding predator population along with a growing population of the wolf, guess what they all have to eat and with populations of these predators on the rise they will eat more and more, in the last 20 years it has been noticed, another 5, 10 or 20 years, at this rate no one really knows what will be left. The Methow herd has been devastated, many factors are to blame but this herd has taken the biggest beating by an exploding predator issue combined with a Department that has put other priorities ahead of putting forth a "quality product" for the hunters of this state. Yes Mother Nature has hit our herds through the years just as she has since the beginning of time and will continue to do so for the rest of time, but how things are "managed" is what will and has determined the health of our herds, whether it be during predator explosions or when Mother Nature shows her bad side. In a nutshell, predators, Mother Nature and other factors are happening, and what we are seeing in our big game herds is a result of "managing" through these issues or as some are saying, mis-managing..... :twocents:
Pretty sure he’s talking about the guy blaming everything on the wolves...not you.
Post by: wolfbait on February 11, 2019, 08:58:16 AM
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
Well, I am far from ignorant and I don't think anywhere in my statement did I blame the decline on a "single factor". I agree there are many elements that have contributed but it is also not a coincidence that the decline actually started with the predator population going up and a new apex predator that arrived on the scene, at least in this state. Thats when we started noticing the decline, new laws on the books concerning our already established predators and as I said, a new one appearing and left to populate. Something has to give, an exploding predator population along with a growing population of the wolf, guess what they all have to eat and with populations of these predators on the rise they will eat more and more, in the last 20 years it has been noticed, another 5, 10 or 20 years, at this rate no one really knows what will be left. The Methow herd has been devastated, many factors are to blame but this herd has taken the biggest beating by an exploding predator issue combined with a Department that has put other priorities ahead of putting forth a "quality product" for the hunters of this state. Yes Mother Nature has hit our herds through the years just as she has since the beginning of time and will continue to do so for the rest of time, but how things are "managed" is what will and has determined the health of our herds, whether it be during predator explosions or when Mother Nature shows her bad side. In a nutshell, predators, Mother Nature and other factors are happening, and what we are seeing in our big game herds is a result of "managing" through these issues or as some are saying, mis-managing..... :twocents:
Pretty sure he’s talking about the guy blaming everything on the wolves...not you.
You are getting in the way of Jackelope's pro-wolf pack, Bigmacc, you need to just be quiet and watch from the sidelines, as they tear chunks out of any part of this discussion where I blame the decline of deer on wolves. Doesn't matter if I blame other predators or management, they are here to make a point....That danged ole wolf hater etc... :o
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.
WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.
Post by: James on February 11, 2019, 10:35:05 AM
While I do appreciate his enthusiasm, if it could be directed in better ways we could make some progress for fish and wildlife.
Post by: idahohuntr on February 11, 2019, 10:37:55 AM
The real problem with the sort of things that Wolfbait likes to post is that it undermines our credibility as sportsmen and conservationists to be able to discuss real issues (like predators) and their impacts. The sort of propaganda that he distributes paints us in a light where we are very easily dismissed at all levels of important game management decisions.Absolutely. Which is why this sort of bs is important to call out.
While I do appreciate his enthusiasm, if it could be directed in better ways we could make some progress for fish and wildlife.
Post by: jackelope on February 11, 2019, 10:38:30 AM
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
Well, I am far from ignorant and I don't think anywhere in my statement did I blame the decline on a "single factor". I agree there are many elements that have contributed but it is also not a coincidence that the decline actually started with the predator population going up and a new apex predator that arrived on the scene, at least in this state. Thats when we started noticing the decline, new laws on the books concerning our already established predators and as I said, a new one appearing and left to populate. Something has to give, an exploding predator population along with a growing population of the wolf, guess what they all have to eat and with populations of these predators on the rise they will eat more and more, in the last 20 years it has been noticed, another 5, 10 or 20 years, at this rate no one really knows what will be left. The Methow herd has been devastated, many factors are to blame but this herd has taken the biggest beating by an exploding predator issue combined with a Department that has put other priorities ahead of putting forth a "quality product" for the hunters of this state. Yes Mother Nature has hit our herds through the years just as she has since the beginning of time and will continue to do so for the rest of time, but how things are "managed" is what will and has determined the health of our herds, whether it be during predator explosions or when Mother Nature shows her bad side. In a nutshell, predators, Mother Nature and other factors are happening, and what we are seeing in our big game herds is a result of "managing" through these issues or as some are saying, mis-managing..... :twocents:
Pretty sure he’s talking about the guy blaming everything on the wolves...not you.
You are getting in the way of Jackelope's pro-wolf pack, Bigmacc, you need to just be quiet and watch from the sidelines, as they tear chunks out of any part of this discussion where I blame the decline of deer on wolves. Doesn't matter if I blame other predators or management, they are here to make a point....That danged ole wolf hater etc... :o
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.
WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.
Your insults aimed at me make literally zero sense as usual and are totally uncalled for. You've been called out and are desperately fishing for ways to regain something. It ain't happening. All the people bashing your posts in this thread and picking them apart and you single me out? I didn't even attempt to insult you. Wow...you're desperate.
For clarification for the others reading this...all I was trying to do was clarify that Bob33 wasn't calling bigmacc ignorant.
Post by: vandeman17 on February 11, 2019, 10:41:53 AM
The real problem with the sort of things that Wolfbait likes to post is that it undermines our credibility as sportsmen and conservationists to be able to discuss real issues (like predators) and their impacts. The sort of propaganda that he distributes paints us in a light where we are very easily dismissed at all levels of important game management decisions.
While I do appreciate his enthusiasm, if it could be directed in better ways we could make some progress for fish and wildlife.
:yeah: Well said
Post by: baldopepper on February 11, 2019, 10:44:37 AM
The real problem with the sort of things that Wolfbait likes to post is that it undermines our credibility as sportsmen and conservationists to be able to discuss real issues (like predators) and their impacts. The sort of propaganda that he distributes paints us in a light where we are very easily dismissed at all levels of important game management decisions.:yeah:
While I do appreciate his enthusiasm, if it could be directed in better ways we could make some progress for fish and wildlife.
Post by: bigtex on February 11, 2019, 10:46:32 AM
The real problem with the sort of things that Wolfbait likes to post is that it undermines our credibility as sportsmen and conservationists to be able to discuss real issues (like predators) and their impacts. The sort of propaganda that he distributes paints us in a light where we are very easily dismissed at all levels of important game management decisions.:tup: :yeah:
While I do appreciate his enthusiasm, if it could be directed in better ways we could make some progress for fish and wildlife.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 11, 2019, 10:54:08 AM
spot on!The real problem with the sort of things that Wolfbait likes to post is that it undermines our credibility as sportsmen and conservationists to be able to discuss real issues (like predators) and their impacts. The sort of propaganda that he distributes paints us in a light where we are very easily dismissed at all levels of important game management decisions.:tup: :yeah:
While I do appreciate his enthusiasm, if it could be directed in better ways we could make some progress for fish and wildlife.
Post by: wolfbait on February 11, 2019, 10:56:05 AM
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
Well, I am far from ignorant and I don't think anywhere in my statement did I blame the decline on a "single factor". I agree there are many elements that have contributed but it is also not a coincidence that the decline actually started with the predator population going up and a new apex predator that arrived on the scene, at least in this state. Thats when we started noticing the decline, new laws on the books concerning our already established predators and as I said, a new one appearing and left to populate. Something has to give, an exploding predator population along with a growing population of the wolf, guess what they all have to eat and with populations of these predators on the rise they will eat more and more, in the last 20 years it has been noticed, another 5, 10 or 20 years, at this rate no one really knows what will be left. The Methow herd has been devastated, many factors are to blame but this herd has taken the biggest beating by an exploding predator issue combined with a Department that has put other priorities ahead of putting forth a "quality product" for the hunters of this state. Yes Mother Nature has hit our herds through the years just as she has since the beginning of time and will continue to do so for the rest of time, but how things are "managed" is what will and has determined the health of our herds, whether it be during predator explosions or when Mother Nature shows her bad side. In a nutshell, predators, Mother Nature and other factors are happening, and what we are seeing in our big game herds is a result of "managing" through these issues or as some are saying, mis-managing..... :twocents:
Pretty sure he’s talking about the guy blaming everything on the wolves...not you.
You are getting in the way of Jackelope's pro-wolf pack, Bigmacc, you need to just be quiet and watch from the sidelines, as they tear chunks out of any part of this discussion where I blame the decline of deer on wolves. Doesn't matter if I blame other predators or management, they are here to make a point....That danged ole wolf hater etc... :o
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.
WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.
Your insults aimed at me make literally zero sense as usual and are totally uncalled for. You've been called out and are desperately fishing for ways to regain something. It ain't happening. All the people bashing your posts in this thread and picking them apart and you single me out? I didn't even attempt to insult you. Wow...you're desperate.
For clarification for the others reading this...all I was trying to do was clarify that Bob33 wasn't calling bigmacc ignorant.
:cryriver:
There are a few people in this discussion that might be considered ignorant, but that's doubtful at this stage of the game. That being said I have read most of, if not all of Bigmacc's post on deer and wolves etc., I don't think he's too worried about anyone suggesting he's "ignorant". ;)
Post by: wolfbait on February 11, 2019, 11:01:54 AM
F&G Protects Wolves, Rattlesnakes
http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%202%20April%202004.IDFG%20protects%20wolves,rattlesnakes.pdf
A New Solution to Non-Game Program Funding?
http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%2024%20Jul-Sep%202007%20A%20New%20Solution%20to%20Non-Game%20Program%20Funding%20.pdf
Post by: jackelope on February 11, 2019, 11:14:16 AM
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
Well, I am far from ignorant and I don't think anywhere in my statement did I blame the decline on a "single factor". I agree there are many elements that have contributed but it is also not a coincidence that the decline actually started with the predator population going up and a new apex predator that arrived on the scene, at least in this state. Thats when we started noticing the decline, new laws on the books concerning our already established predators and as I said, a new one appearing and left to populate. Something has to give, an exploding predator population along with a growing population of the wolf, guess what they all have to eat and with populations of these predators on the rise they will eat more and more, in the last 20 years it has been noticed, another 5, 10 or 20 years, at this rate no one really knows what will be left. The Methow herd has been devastated, many factors are to blame but this herd has taken the biggest beating by an exploding predator issue combined with a Department that has put other priorities ahead of putting forth a "quality product" for the hunters of this state. Yes Mother Nature has hit our herds through the years just as she has since the beginning of time and will continue to do so for the rest of time, but how things are "managed" is what will and has determined the health of our herds, whether it be during predator explosions or when Mother Nature shows her bad side. In a nutshell, predators, Mother Nature and other factors are happening, and what we are seeing in our big game herds is a result of "managing" through these issues or as some are saying, mis-managing..... :twocents:
Pretty sure he’s talking about the guy blaming everything on the wolves...not you.
You are getting in the way of Jackelope's pro-wolf pack, Bigmacc, you need to just be quiet and watch from the sidelines, as they tear chunks out of any part of this discussion where I blame the decline of deer on wolves. Doesn't matter if I blame other predators or management, they are here to make a point....That danged ole wolf hater etc... :o
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.
WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.
Your insults aimed at me make literally zero sense as usual and are totally uncalled for. You've been called out and are desperately fishing for ways to regain something. It ain't happening. All the people bashing your posts in this thread and picking them apart and you single me out? I didn't even attempt to insult you. Wow...you're desperate.
For clarification for the others reading this...all I was trying to do was clarify that Bob33 wasn't calling bigmacc ignorant.
:cryriver:
There are a few people in this discussion that might be considered ignorant, but that's doubtful at this stage of the game. That being said I have read most of, if not all of Bigmacc's post on deer and wolves etc., I don't think he's too worried about anyone suggesting he's "ignorant". ;)
Which is good, because it's not him that anyone is suggesting is ignorant.
;)
Oh hey...what do you know. Called out again and still coming for only me. One thing's for sure....you're predictable.
Post by: bigmacc on February 11, 2019, 11:45:50 AM
Post by: bearpaw on February 11, 2019, 12:50:53 PM
Wyoming still feeds their elk and they have the highest success rate of any state with general elk seasons. :twocents:
http://www.backcountrychronicles.com/elk-harvest-comparison-western-states/
Quote
Wyoming claims an amazing overall 44.4% average hunter success rate (includes OTC tags), followed now by Utah at 26.4% (Utah is always late, so waiting on 2017 harvest data). Idaho dropped to third place followed by Montana.
Post by: ribka on February 11, 2019, 01:03:52 PM
At least he wolfbait is passionate and trying to stop it. Give him credit for that.
The real problem with the sort of things that Wolfbait likes to post is that it undermines our credibility as sportsmen and conservationists to be able to discuss real issues (like predators) and their impacts. The sort of propaganda that he distributes paints us in a light where we are very easily dismissed at all levels of important game management decisions.
While I do appreciate his enthusiasm, if it could be directed in better ways we could make some progress for fish and wildlife.
:yeah: Well said
Post by: bigmacc on February 11, 2019, 01:36:21 PM
We have a retired WDFW employee here locally that used to feed the deer in NE WA. WDFW when it was the fish & game dept used to feed deer in the winter. He says feeding the deer a ways up on the mountain accomplished two things, it nourished the deer and it kept them off the highways. I wonder if they used to feed deer in the Methow too?
Wyoming still feeds their elk and they have the highest success rate of any state with general elk seasons. :twocents:
http://www.backcountrychronicles.com/elk-harvest-comparison-western-states/QuoteWyoming claims an amazing overall 44.4% average hunter success rate (includes OTC tags), followed now by Utah at 26.4% (Utah is always late, so waiting on 2017 harvest data). Idaho dropped to third place followed by Montana.
Well bearpaw, they used to, I myself on many occasions during rough winters would stop by and pick up bags of feed and went where they told me to go but like you said, thats when they were the Game Department, we were told the same thing, it supplemented them through some extreme periods and kept them away from more populated areas. I hate to sound like a broken record but thats when that herd was at the top of the flagpole, a lot of pride was taken in that herd by the Game Dept. and it was watched, studied and coddled over the way some other animals are now days. I,ve told stories before how Game managers and Bios we knew back in the day would actually ask us questions about routes or staging areas we knew of, they would come to camp and talk for hours with my family. Many a time they would meet up with my dad and 2 or 3 of them would jump in the rig with my dad and be gone for hours and hours, one time they left at 6 in the A.M and were back at 8 P.M, my dad said they put on over 250 miles on some real bad roads from Winthrop to 30 mile, they were picking his and my grandpas brains about where to begin gating roads to protect deer during the migration. Back then you could talk to them and they genuinely would listen, they would ask questions and seek opinions, they valued input from folks that just may know some things that they didn't. We don't have a "Game Department" anymore unfortunately.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 11, 2019, 03:46:06 PM
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.
WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.
Ignorant guy here...…... :chuckle:.
@wolfbait If there are "very few deer", But "plenty of cat's & wolves", what are they eating?
Post by: wolfbait on February 11, 2019, 04:07:16 PM
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.
WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.
Ignorant guy here...…... :chuckle:.
@wolfbait If there are "very few deer", But "plenty of cat's & wolves", what are they eating?
Road Kill
http://bb.methowvalley.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3655 Here's three that have been hanging on the Golden Doe, they seem to wonder up through the back canyon and cross down to the river bottom about once a week. We have cross their trail most of the winter plowing our driveway. We hear, along with others the wolves howling in the river bottom and and Golden Doe quite often. Last week a friend heading to town early came up on a wolf lopping up the county road just past Harlderman's hole.
Last year we started out with 17 deer hanging with our broncs, by winters end there were no fawns and we figured 7 does left and a small buck. This year we have started with five pair, they hang by the house most of the day and eat with the broncs at night and morning when wolves are in close, we still have 5 does but they don't have any fawns on them anymore.
Like I said, not many deer but plenty of predators that are picking off what's left.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 11, 2019, 04:42:46 PM
Post by: wolfbait on February 11, 2019, 05:31:58 PM
So I'm confused, Very few deer, but there's roadkill? Where did the roadkill come from?
Ignorant guy here...…... :chuckle:.
[/quote]
No Comment........ :chuckle:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 11, 2019, 07:41:04 PM
Post by: KFhunter on February 11, 2019, 10:00:43 PM
red = predator area
yellow = deer area
make of it what you will ;)
Post by: Buckhunter82 on February 12, 2019, 01:17:05 AM
No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.
WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.
Ignorant guy here...…... :chuckle:.
@wolfbait If there are "very few deer", But "plenty of cat's & wolves", what are they eating?
Livestock
Post by: idahohuntr on February 12, 2019, 06:57:48 AM
How many livestock have been eaten in the methow this year? I think some estimates have said 1 lion will eat a deer per week..not sure what a consumption rate for wolves would be...so whats been eaten...500 cattle? 1000?No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.
In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity". I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see ;).....once again, all due respect.
https://muledeer.org/conservation/ (https://muledeer.org/conservation/)
I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.
WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.
Ignorant guy here...…... :chuckle:.
@wolfbait If there are "very few deer", But "plenty of cat's & wolves", what are they eating?
Livestock
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 12, 2019, 07:47:14 AM
Post by: bearpaw on February 12, 2019, 08:14:44 AM
A few weeks ago the cattle broke down the fence around one house and were in the yard in the morning, there were wolf tracks in the fresh snow not far from the house. A wolf was spotted 30 yards from another house in the valley.
At another ranch wolf tracks were found in the timber all around where the cattle were being fed so they moved the cattle as close to the house as possible and put the younger weened calves in a coral right next to the house.
A week or two ago a wolf was seen in the morning in the middle of the street in Bluecreek between the store and the railroad tracks (15 miles south of Colville). It was reported to WDFW that a wolf was in town and a chopper soon herded the wolf back up the mountian.
WDFW actually has a specific deer season along the Hwy 395 corridor to reduce car/deer wrecks. So, perhaps wolfbait didn't explain his reasoning well enough for a few folks, but if you call WDFW and ask them why they have the Colvlille Valley 2nd deer hunt they will tell you to more or less it was established to reduce car wrecks. Then if you look at the WDFW wolf pack map you will see wolf packs dominate the mountains surrounding the Colville Valley.
Anyone who has been hunting the higher mountain areas in Unit 117 and 121 (actually almost any unit in NE WA) in the last year or two can probably relate the lack of deer in the mountains. The most remaining deer are in the valley bottoms close to human activity.
Look at Kfhunters map then look at the WDFW wolf pack map, people living in these wolf infested areas think there's a connection? WDFW's special deer season to reduce deer numbers along Hwy 395 seems to verify that deer are concentrated in the valley!
(Colville valley highlighted in Yellow, the black dot is Colville)
Post by: bearpaw on February 12, 2019, 08:28:32 AM
I'm willing to bet it's a little of both! :twocents:
Post by: Cougartail on February 12, 2019, 09:45:08 AM
Post by: Special T on February 12, 2019, 10:09:12 AM
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: jagermiester on February 12, 2019, 01:33:23 PM
Post by: Bob33 on February 12, 2019, 01:34:46 PM
I personally think that it is great that the state is purchasing land for habitat. How did this get so far off the subject???It started that way. Check the title.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 12, 2019, 01:39:26 PM
:yeah: and the only reason I would even comment on a thread such as this. Literally the whole discussion is just wolves are bad. Has nothing to do with more public land and habit for everyone.I personally think that it is great that the state is purchasing land for habitat. How did this get so far off the subject???It started that way. Check the title.
Post by: jagermiester on February 12, 2019, 01:42:18 PM
I personally think that it is great that the state is purchasing land for habitat. How did this get so far off the subject???It started that way. Check the title.
I was just kidding.... because everyone is insulting each other about their feelings on wolves... not funny I know>
Honestly though I think the state and RMEF and Pheasants forever and DU and all the other conservation groups acquiring habitat is the most positive thing that we have going right now as sportsman in this country. Without that we would not have any wild animals deer or wolves in the future. Good on ya WDFW.
Post by: idahohuntr on February 12, 2019, 02:12:47 PM
I personally think that it is great that the state is purchasing land for habitat. How did this get so far off the subject???Don't use that H-word around here...there is nothing positive about a corrupt bunch of wolf counters buying more wolf habitat so they can keep forcing wolves on us...look at the maps showing all that deserted habitat...and never mind the fact it looks like something a 4 year old made with 2 crayons :chuckle: :chuckle:
Sadly, there are a folks out there with such extreme views they can't help but blame everything on wolves all the time...even something that should be nothing but good news for public land hunters. If I lived in the city and couldn't go see for myself and only read this forum - I'd swear it would be an act of god to spot a deer just about anywhere in the state of Washington.
Post by: Tbar on February 12, 2019, 02:31:24 PM
So here's a map I found that illustrates where the deer are vs where the predators are.Where did you "find" this map? What went into its creation?
red = predator area
yellow = deer area
make of it what you will ;)
Post by: WAcoueshunter on February 12, 2019, 02:37:41 PM
So here's a map I found that illustrates where the deer are vs where the predators are.
red = predator area
yellow = deer area
make of it what you will ;)
:dunno: Looks like deer like alfalfa? Is that news?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 12, 2019, 02:45:33 PM
:chuckle: I wasnt gonna go there but in my experience in both areas with and without wolves, if theres agriculture, that's where the volume of deer are at :chuckle:So here's a map I found that illustrates where the deer are vs where the predators are.
red = predator area
yellow = deer area
make of it what you will ;)
:dunno: Looks like deer like alfalfa? Is that news?
Post by: jackelope on February 12, 2019, 03:15:29 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 12, 2019, 05:25:01 PM
So I'm confused, Very few deer, but there's roadkill? Where did the roadkill come from?
Ignorant guy here...…... :chuckle:.
No Comment........ :chuckle:
[/quote]
:chuckle: :tup: at least you got it.
I'm not a wolf lover, or hater, but i do like to base my thoughts on fact, not fiction.
To me its really simple, Predators eat prey.(fact) Both species will fluctuate populations depending on how the other is doing.(fact) The Methow deer herd has been historically low for several years now(fact) so why the drastic increase in predators(wolf/lion)?
To blame all of, or the majority of, the deer herds reduction on wolf/cat predation is fiction.
Post by: idahohuntr on February 12, 2019, 05:34:55 PM
Well stated. My thoughts exactly.
I'm not a wolf lover, or hater, but i do like to base my thoughts on fact, not fiction.
Also wondering the source of the map.My guess was a young child with crayons...completely fabricated and fictitious and not based on any actual wildlife data. :dunno:
Post by: Bob33 on February 12, 2019, 06:26:39 PM
Post by: bigmacc on February 12, 2019, 07:20:04 PM
So I'm confused, Very few deer, but there's roadkill? Where did the roadkill come from?
Ignorant guy here...…... :chuckle:.
No Comment........ :chuckle:
:chuckle: :tup: at least you got it.
I'm not a wolf lover, or hater, but i do like to base my thoughts on fact, not fiction.
To me its really simple, Predators eat prey.(fact) Both species will fluctuate populations depending on how the other is doing.(fact) The Methow deer herd has been historically low for several years now(fact) so why the drastic increase in predators(wolf/lion)?
To blame all of, or the majority of, the deer herds reduction on wolf/cat predation is fiction.
[/quote]
For NOCK NOCK
I will chime in as far as the Methow goes, you are right about the herd "being historically low for several years now". What you may be missing is that it has been low for periods at a time through history and has always bounced back. Historically this herd has been darn near bullet proof. Winters of 68-69, winters of 36-37, winters of 18-19, horrible winters in the 70,s and 90,s and 10 year draughts, throw in some fires too going back 100 years if you like. Thousands and thousands of deer perished, especially 68-69 where its estimated anywhere from 5-9 thousand died. I told stories in another thread of what my dad and I witnessed during that winter. The herd bounced back within 3 to 6 years. In its day, at its peak it fluctuated anywhere from 30-40 thousand head(50,s and 60,s), the herd held fairly stable numbers through the 70,s ,80,s and 90,s with some minor ups and downs. This herd has been declining for 20-25 years with no "bouncing back", is it just a coincidence that is roughly when predator numbers began going through the roof? you tell me. it continues to fall, its roughly half the size of its historic numbers and continues to plummet.This herd (was at one time) THE largest migrating herd in the country, bar none. Predators are pounding this herd PERIOD and bouncing back is not happening until that issue is addressed. With all do respect, this once thriving herd, the largest in the country has been devastated by ALL predators including a new one(wolf) that has been roaming this valley for at least 25 years (that I myself know of). Now throw in exploding cougar and bear populations, well somethings gonna give, this herd is still "alive" but barely.....Eventually the predators will be gone or reduced, some will starve but only when this herds been reduced to the point that makes your scenario possible, "both species will fluctuate depending on how the others doing", which for me, concerning this particular herd is a very sad way to look at things, something could and should be done through management concerning predators in this state.....sorry, rant over. and yes, they have heard from me.
Post by: KFhunter on February 12, 2019, 11:18:37 PM
A young child woul have done better, Om not so good with a phone, they laugh at my single thumb typing :)
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 13, 2019, 06:25:02 AM
So I'm confused, Very few deer, but there's roadkill? Where did the roadkill come from?
Ignorant guy here...…... :chuckle:.
No Comment........ :chuckle:
:chuckle: :tup: at least you got it.
I'm not a wolf lover, or hater, but i do like to base my thoughts on fact, not fiction.
To me its really simple, Predators eat prey.(fact) Both species will fluctuate populations depending on how the other is doing.(fact) The Methow deer herd has been historically low for several years now(fact) so why the drastic increase in predators(wolf/lion)?
To blame all of, or the majority of, the deer herds reduction on wolf/cat predation is fiction.
For NOCK NOCK
I will chime in as far as the Methow goes, you are right about the herd "being historically low for several years now". What you may be missing is that it has been low for periods at a time through history and has always bounced back. Historically this herd has been darn near bullet proof. Winters of 68-69, winters of 36-37, winters of 18-19, horrible winters in the 70,s and 90,s and 10 year draughts, throw in some fires too going back 100 years if you like. Thousands and thousands of deer perished, especially 68-69 where its estimated anywhere from 5-9 thousand died. I told stories in another thread of what my dad and I witnessed during that winter. The herd bounced back within 3 to 6 years. In its day, at its peak it fluctuated anywhere from 30-40 thousand head(50,s and 60,s), the herd held fairly stable numbers through the 70,s ,80,s and 90,s with some minor ups and downs. This herd has been declining for 20-25 years with no "bouncing back", is it just a coincidence that is roughly when predator numbers began going through the roof? you tell me. it continues to fall, its roughly half the size of its historic numbers and continues to plummet.This herd (was at one time) THE largest migrating herd in the country, bar none. Predators are pounding this herd PERIOD and bouncing back is not happening until that issue is addressed. With all do respect, this once thriving herd, the largest in the country has been devastated by ALL predators including a new one(wolf) that has been roaming this valley for at least 25 years (that I myself know of). Now throw in exploding cougar and bear populations, well somethings gonna give, this herd is still "alive" but barely.....Eventually the predators will be gone or reduced, some will starve but only when this herds been reduced to the point that makes your scenario possible, "both species will fluctuate depending on how the others doing", which for me, concerning this particular herd is a very sad way to look at things, something could and should be done through management concerning predators in this state.....sorry, rant over. and yes, they have heard from me.
[/quote]
With all due respect, Your not getting the point. I am all for better predator management, but refuse to put all the blame on predators for the declining herds.
Mule deer and predators have coexisted for longer than your above stated times. Why are the predators just now decimating the herds?
Human predator numbers have also "exploded" in the valley. Do you believe they have an effect on deer herd health?
Do you believe hard winters kill deer?
Do you believe fires kill deer?
Is it just a coincidence that herds started declining at the same time frame humans started increasing?
Or, is it all to blame on the wolves and cats????
Have you killed any of these massive amounts of predators? Cat? Bear? Reading your posts you say you have seen lots of them...……. kill some...... help the deer out. :twocents:
I am not trying to argue, or call you out, as I am positive you are a stand up guy, but just tired of seeing all the blame put on predators as the ONLY reason herds are declining. (FICTION)
Post by: boneaddict on February 13, 2019, 08:15:18 AM
but there is history.
Any land purchased for wildlife to prevent a house from going up on it, GOOD IMO, especially in the Methow
Post by: mburrows on February 13, 2019, 08:22:11 AM
There is a History for all of you and what I believe the inspiration to the thread title, whether you choose to believe it or not...is it worth my time writing it down for all of you, probably not.
but there is history.
Any land purchased for wildlife to prevent a house from going up on it, GOOD IMO, especially in the Methow
:yeah: Wolves are bad for them but habitat lose is even worse for mule deer.
Post by: wolfbait on February 13, 2019, 09:08:24 AM
There is a History for all of you and what I believe the inspiration to the thread title, whether you choose to believe it or not...is it worth my time writing it down for all of you, probably not.
but there is history.
Any land purchased for wildlife to prevent a house from going up on it, GOOD IMO, especially in the Methow
:yeah: Wolves are bad for them but habitat lose is even worse for mule deer.
If it wasn't for the "homes" habitat there would a hell of a lot less deer then there are now. Where ever there is a wolf problem the ungulates move to town or around people.
For the record I don't like how the Methow has grown either, but I can tell you, it isn't the homes built everywhere that's killing the ungulates, and WDFW buying up more land isn't going to help the deer etc. at this point. Strict predator control on the other hand would.
WDFW's land grab isn't about habitat for deer etc., it's been plain to see for many years now that WDFW don't have any intention of any positive management for deer etc.. Predators on the other hand are protected above all else.
Post by: timberfaller on February 13, 2019, 09:32:36 AM
Post by: jackelope on February 13, 2019, 09:53:34 AM
Predators
Habitat
Fires
Humans
Lack of legitimate feed
Road kill
Development
Over-harvest
I'm sure some of them fall together, and I'm sure I left a few out.
My point is we're all in it for the same goal. Sitting around on the internet slinging insults back and forth and insinuating one doesn't know enough to have a quality opinion is just plain dumb. Us hunters and sportsmen not coming together as 1 consolidated group and dealing with each issue to the best of our ability will be the single most detrimental factor to the future of hunting...or lack thereof.
Seems like some people don't understand that and just want to argue to hear themselves argue.
Post by: 7mmfan on February 13, 2019, 10:00:54 AM
In no particular order.....
Predators
Habitat
Fires
Humans
Lack of legitimate feed
Road kill
Development
Over-harvest
I'm sure some of them fall together, and I'm sure I left a few out.
My point is we're all in it for the same goal. Sitting around on the internet slinging insults back and forth and insinuating one doesn't know enough to have a quality opinion is just plain dumb. Us hunters and sportsmen not coming together as 1 consolidated group and dealing with each issue to the best of our ability will be the single most detrimental factor to the future of hunting...or lack thereof.
Seems like some people don't understand that and just want to argue to hear themselves argue.
This :yeah:
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 10:26:13 AM
There's some very important history that most people keep forgetting or never learned. Lewis and Clark nearly starved to death crossing the Rocky Mountain west (it's all documented) until they got to the Columbia River system and found abundant food, they barely survived the Rocky Mountain region. The only reason there has been abundant deer and elk populations in the mountains is because predators were hunted hard for decades and their numbers brought down to a point where deer, elk, and eventually even moose could flourish.
Ungulate herds have actually flourished with the settlement of the far west. The first two Hudson Bay trading posts in the west were first near Astoria and second at Kettle Falls. There are records of hundreds of wolf hides being traded by the Indian tribes in the early 1800's. My grandfathers both homesteaded here in the very early 1900's, as a little boy my father and grandfather traded with the Indians for salmon at Kettle Falls. My father watched loggers clear land along the Columbia River while Coulee Dam was being built. My dad hunted with Cougar Sam one of the famed cougar bounty hunters during the middle of the 1900's. It was not until after the wolves were brought under control and then cougar were brought under control that ungulate herds really flourished. The 1960's and 1970's were the peak.
Obviously there's a reason there was no moose season at all until near the end of the 1900's, there were almost no moose before that time! Moose have only flourished after predators were controlled and logging operations created huge amounts of perfect habitat.
For those who seem a little foggy on this and especially anyone who has never read any of it, please look up the Lewis and Clark records and the Hudson Bay records!
Elk and deer literally flourish right in the middle of human development! Colorado has the largest elk herd in the world and the epicenter is right in downtown Estes park Colorado! Within the city limits of our nations capitol WA DC there's outstanding deer numbers and hunting opportunities! DON'T miss the Omaha Nebraska buck or the Salt Lake City buck either. Right here in NE WA since the predators have taken over I can probably show you more deer quicker in the city of Colville than in the country.
Most of us want to hunt in a country setting, but the rubbish that human development is causing the loss of deer and elk herds is simply green propaganda. Yes people need to tie up dogs, yes we lose deer on highways, yes i hate to see winter range developed, but predators have prevented herds from recovering from hard winters and that's why herds are not what they used to be!
Post by: Platensek-po on February 13, 2019, 10:56:16 AM
Post by: jstone on February 13, 2019, 11:04:41 AM
Yes, we all need to stick together. This state is going in the wrong direction. The bad Politics are ruining it. To many politicians bought and paid for. Predators need to be controlled. They always have been.
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 11:06:35 AM
So wolves hunted elk into extinction on the east coast?? Wolves killed all the bison? What’s funny is you have it backwards. The white tail numbers in the US today are inflated because we have killed most of their predators and eliminated competition. When you remove predators from an ecosystem the prey tends to become overpopulated. What we are seeing is a rebalancing of nature. What’s out of balance is the human population in these areas. How many humans lived in all of the US when Lewis and Clark made their journey?? I bet it’s less than the amount that live in Washington state alone. Wolves, bears, cougars, coyote and etc all are part of this ecosystem. I agree that they may need to be managed but let’s not get carried away saying that humans have less of an impact than other predators.
I'm sorry, but actually you have it wrong. It wasn't modern hunters who decimated herds you mention. Market hunting and subsistence hunting decimated herds. Also buffalo were extirpated to help win the indian wars, modern ranching and hunter dollars are bringing bison herds back. Modern regulated hunters have actually footed the bill for bringing herds back while predators were brought under control.
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 11:08:53 AM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on February 13, 2019, 11:13:10 AM
Some of you people have been hand fed to much liberal propaganda and you believe it. You can't blame dieing herds all on the impacts of humans! In fact the contrary is far more truthful.
There's some very important history that most people keep forgetting or never learned. Lewis and Clark nearly starved to death crossing the Rocky Mountain west (it's all documented) until they got to the Columbia River system and found abundant food, they barely survived the Rocky Mountain region. The only reason there has been abundant deer and elk populations in the mountains is because predators were hunted hard for decades and their numbers brought down to a point where deer, elk, and eventually even moose could flourish.
Ungulate herds have actually flourished with the settlement of the far west. The first two Hudson Bay trading posts in the west were first near Astoria and second at Kettle Falls. There are records of hundreds of wolf hides being traded by the Indian tribes in the early 1800's. My grandfathers both homesteaded here in the very early 1900's, as a little boy my father and grandfather traded with the Indians for salmon at Kettle Falls. My father watched loggers clear land along the Columbia River while Coulee Dam was being built. My dad hunted with Cougar Sam one of the famed cougar bounty hunters during the middle of the 1900's. It was not until after the wolves were brought under control and then cougar were brought under control that ungulate herds really flourished. The 1960's and 1970's were the peak.
Obviously there's a reason there was no moose season at all until near the end of the 1900's, there were almost no moose before that time! Moose have only flourished after predators were controlled and logging operations created huge amounts of perfect habitat.
For those who seem a little foggy on this and especially anyone who has never read any of it, please look up the Lewis and Clark records and the Hudson Bay records!
Elk and deer literally flourish right in the middle of human development! Colorado has the largest elk herd in the world and the epicenter is right in downtown Estes park Colorado! Within the city limits of our nations capitol WA DC there's outstanding deer numbers and hunting opportunities! DON'T miss the Omaha Nebraska buck or the Salt Lake City buck either. Right here in NE WA since the predators have taken over I can probably show you more deer quicker in the city of Colville than in the country.
Most of us want to hunt in a country setting, but the rubbish that human development is causing the loss of deer and elk herds is simply green propaganda. Yes people need to tie up dogs, yes we lose deer on highways, yes i hate to see winter range developed, but predators have prevented herds from recovering from hard winters and that's why herds are not what they used to be!
LOL..... Estes park. Lets not forget that there is no HUNTING impact in many of those places either :chuckle:
Post by: Buckhunter82 on February 13, 2019, 11:14:21 AM
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 11:17:30 AM
Some of you people have been hand fed to much liberal propaganda and you believe it. You can't blame dieing herds all on the impacts of humans! In fact the contrary is far more truthful.
There's some very important history that most people keep forgetting or never learned. Lewis and Clark nearly starved to death crossing the Rocky Mountain west (it's all documented) until they got to the Columbia River system and found abundant food, they barely survived the Rocky Mountain region. The only reason there has been abundant deer and elk populations in the mountains is because predators were hunted hard for decades and their numbers brought down to a point where deer, elk, and eventually even moose could flourish.
Ungulate herds have actually flourished with the settlement of the far west. The first two Hudson Bay trading posts in the west were first near Astoria and second at Kettle Falls. There are records of hundreds of wolf hides being traded by the Indian tribes in the early 1800's. My grandfathers both homesteaded here in the very early 1900's, as a little boy my father and grandfather traded with the Indians for salmon at Kettle Falls. My father watched loggers clear land along the Columbia River while Coulee Dam was being built. My dad hunted with Cougar Sam one of the famed cougar bounty hunters during the middle of the 1900's. It was not until after the wolves were brought under control and then cougar were brought under control that ungulate herds really flourished. The 1960's and 1970's were the peak.
Obviously there's a reason there was no moose season at all until near the end of the 1900's, there were almost no moose before that time! Moose have only flourished after predators were controlled and logging operations created huge amounts of perfect habitat.
For those who seem a little foggy on this and especially anyone who has never read any of it, please look up the Lewis and Clark records and the Hudson Bay records!
Elk and deer literally flourish right in the middle of human development! Colorado has the largest elk herd in the world and the epicenter is right in downtown Estes park Colorado! Within the city limits of our nations capitol WA DC there's outstanding deer numbers and hunting opportunities! DON'T miss the Omaha Nebraska buck or the Salt Lake City buck either. Right here in NE WA since the predators have taken over I can probably show you more deer quicker in the city of Colville than in the country.
Most of us want to hunt in a country setting, but the rubbish that human development is causing the loss of deer and elk herds is simply green propaganda. Yes people need to tie up dogs, yes we lose deer on highways, yes i hate to see winter range developed, but predators have prevented herds from recovering from hard winters and that's why herds are not what they used to be!
LOL..... Estes park. Lets not forget that there is no HUNTING impact in many of those places either :chuckle:
You are absolutely correct. I didn't say there was hunting, I was pointing out that elk and other wildlife can flourish alongside humans. Additionally, if you watch those videos you won't see too many cougar or wolves roaming, another reason the elk and deer are flourishing right alongside humans.
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on February 13, 2019, 11:22:40 AM
:yeah:
Any land purchased for wildlife to prevent a house from going up on it, GOOD IMO, especially in the Methow
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 11:23:08 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on February 13, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
Hunting and Conservation of wildlife is not a Republican or Democrat issue...anybody who tries to intimidate or ridicule others on a party line basis is clueless and out of touch with whats going on. There are good elected leaders in both parties working to do good things for hunters and wildlife...and there are really bad, dumb elected leaders in both parties doing things that undermine hunting.
Post by: jagermiester on February 13, 2019, 11:27:11 AM
The wolf lovers will never be swayed. They claim they aren't pro-wolf, but defend wolves whenever possible. They are the educated intellectuals that love "facts" but just don't force common sense on them. Their abundance in this state is the reason predators are treated like gods and their defense of WDFW is steadfast. At least wolfbait draws them out to show us it isn't just the game department and anti's we are up against on the issue of wolves.
There is a big difference between being a wolf lover and someone who can appreciate nature in it's natural state. The WDFW and any other organization acquiring habitat is a good thing for the flora and the fauna. All the Fauna. I believe that Wolves should be hunted and should fear man. I also believe that it is sad that Wolves were eradicated they are an awesome creature. I believe that we should be able to hunt Cats with dogs to control the population better but I love Cougars and I would not want to live in a world that they do not exist.
WDFW acquiring this land is a good thing.
Post by: jackelope on February 13, 2019, 11:29:43 AM
https://kimatv.com/news/local/buttons-the-beloved-cle-elum-elk-has-been-tranquilized-and-rehomed
https://www.timescolonist.com/islander/b-c-ending-relocation-of-troublesome-carnivores-1.2336629
B.C. ending relocation of troublesome carnivores
After coming into contact with people, it will be aversion measures — or death
B.C. will no longer relocate large carnivores long distances once they have been in conflict with humans or habituated to human food. Instead, an updated Ministry of the Environment policy says the animals will be destroyed if aversion measures to promote fear of people cannot be implemented.
I can probably google up lots more liberal propaganda showing wildlife living too close to humans is a problem too but I wouldn't want to pollute my noggin any more than it already is.
;)
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 13, 2019, 11:30:44 AM
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 11:31:26 AM
It's amazing that some people believe more human development and loss of habitat is either a non-issue or is a benefit to wildlife. A few hundred wolves inhabit this state...and 7+ million humans...but yea, wolves are definitely the biggest threat. Lets develop a whole bunch more land so we can make safe places for the deer in towns. :rolleyes:
Hunting and Conservation of wildlife is not a Republican or Democrat issue...anybody who tries to intimidate or ridicule others on a party line basis is clueless and out of touch with whats going on. There are good elected leaders in both parties working to do good things for hunters and wildlife...and there are really bad, dumb elected leaders in both parties doing things that undermine hunting.
Again misinformation and twisting what's been said. Not surprised, I knew my post would bring out certain persons. :chuckle:
I said deer and elk can thrive alongside humans and I showed the proof. The biggest reason WA herds are declining is because hard winters take a big toll on herds, at that point the many predators have a larger impact on the herds and it becomes hard for those herds to recover. Colorado has the same exploding human population as WA yet has record elk herds, but no wolves, yet!
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on February 13, 2019, 11:32:26 AM
Some of you people have been hand fed to much liberal propaganda and you believe it. You can't blame dieing herds all on the impacts of humans! In fact the contrary is far more truthful.
There's some very important history that most people keep forgetting or never learned. Lewis and Clark nearly starved to death crossing the Rocky Mountain west (it's all documented) until they got to the Columbia River system and found abundant food, they barely survived the Rocky Mountain region. The only reason there has been abundant deer and elk populations in the mountains is because predators were hunted hard for decades and their numbers brought down to a point where deer, elk, and eventually even moose could flourish.
Ungulate herds have actually flourished with the settlement of the far west. The first two Hudson Bay trading posts in the west were first near Astoria and second at Kettle Falls. There are records of hundreds of wolf hides being traded by the Indian tribes in the early 1800's. My grandfathers both homesteaded here in the very early 1900's, as a little boy my father and grandfather traded with the Indians for salmon at Kettle Falls. My father watched loggers clear land along the Columbia River while Coulee Dam was being built. My dad hunted with Cougar Sam one of the famed cougar bounty hunters during the middle of the 1900's. It was not until after the wolves were brought under control and then cougar were brought under control that ungulate herds really flourished. The 1960's and 1970's were the peak.
Obviously there's a reason there was no moose season at all until near the end of the 1900's, there were almost no moose before that time! Moose have only flourished after predators were controlled and logging operations created huge amounts of perfect habitat.
For those who seem a little foggy on this and especially anyone who has never read any of it, please look up the Lewis and Clark records and the Hudson Bay records!
Elk and deer literally flourish right in the middle of human development! Colorado has the largest elk herd in the world and the epicenter is right in downtown Estes park Colorado! Within the city limits of our nations capitol WA DC there's outstanding deer numbers and hunting opportunities! DON'T miss the Omaha Nebraska buck or the Salt Lake City buck either. Right here in NE WA since the predators have taken over I can probably show you more deer quicker in the city of Colville than in the country.
Most of us want to hunt in a country setting, but the rubbish that human development is causing the loss of deer and elk herds is simply green propaganda. Yes people need to tie up dogs, yes we lose deer on highways, yes i hate to see winter range developed, but predators have prevented herds from recovering from hard winters and that's why herds are not what they used to be!
LOL..... Estes park. Lets not forget that there is no HUNTING impact in many of those places either :chuckle:
You are absolutely correct. I didn't say there was hunting, I was pointing out that elk and other wildlife can flourish alongside humans. Additionally, if you watch those videos you won't see too many cougar or wolves roaming, another reason the elk and deer are flourishing right alongside humans.
Only if tolerated. That was my point. Open a general season in estes and see how long it lasts. Or put that herd adjacent to a bunch of farmers crops and see if it goes unnoticed and if anyone is crying about damage. And thats before crossing the fence about who gets the say so on what happens with the animals. Estes and similar areas are unique in that most folks see eye to eye on mangement. Not sure I want anymore growth where those types of folks are seeing eye to eye on how to manage ungulate herds. Not beneficial for me at all.
Post by: idahohuntr on February 13, 2019, 11:35:44 AM
Nothing has been twisted. Re-read all the posts in this thread :tup:It's amazing that some people believe more human development and loss of habitat is either a non-issue or is a benefit to wildlife. A few hundred wolves inhabit this state...and 7+ million humans...but yea, wolves are definitely the biggest threat. Lets develop a whole bunch more land so we can make safe places for the deer in towns. :rolleyes:
Hunting and Conservation of wildlife is not a Republican or Democrat issue...anybody who tries to intimidate or ridicule others on a party line basis is clueless and out of touch with whats going on. There are good elected leaders in both parties working to do good things for hunters and wildlife...and there are really bad, dumb elected leaders in both parties doing things that undermine hunting.
Again misinformation and twisting what's been said. Not surprised, I knew my post would bring out certain persons. :chuckle:
I said deer and elk can thrive alongside humans and I showed the proof. The biggest reason WA herds are declining is because hard winters take a big toll on herds, at that point the many predators have a larger impact on the herds and it becomes hard for those herds to recover. Colorado has the same exploding human population as WA yet has record elk herds, but no wolves, yet!
Your last line is hilarious...it's like you are suggesting the only difference between Colorado and Washington is wolves. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 11:38:31 AM
Some of you people have been hand fed to much liberal propaganda and you believe it. You can't blame dieing herds all on the impacts of humans! In fact the contrary is far more truthful.
There's some very important history that most people keep forgetting or never learned. Lewis and Clark nearly starved to death crossing the Rocky Mountain west (it's all documented) until they got to the Columbia River system and found abundant food, they barely survived the Rocky Mountain region. The only reason there has been abundant deer and elk populations in the mountains is because predators were hunted hard for decades and their numbers brought down to a point where deer, elk, and eventually even moose could flourish.
Ungulate herds have actually flourished with the settlement of the far west. The first two Hudson Bay trading posts in the west were first near Astoria and second at Kettle Falls. There are records of hundreds of wolf hides being traded by the Indian tribes in the early 1800's. My grandfathers both homesteaded here in the very early 1900's, as a little boy my father and grandfather traded with the Indians for salmon at Kettle Falls. My father watched loggers clear land along the Columbia River while Coulee Dam was being built. My dad hunted with Cougar Sam one of the famed cougar bounty hunters during the middle of the 1900's. It was not until after the wolves were brought under control and then cougar were brought under control that ungulate herds really flourished. The 1960's and 1970's were the peak.
Obviously there's a reason there was no moose season at all until near the end of the 1900's, there were almost no moose before that time! Moose have only flourished after predators were controlled and logging operations created huge amounts of perfect habitat.
For those who seem a little foggy on this and especially anyone who has never read any of it, please look up the Lewis and Clark records and the Hudson Bay records!
Elk and deer literally flourish right in the middle of human development! Colorado has the largest elk herd in the world and the epicenter is right in downtown Estes park Colorado! Within the city limits of our nations capitol WA DC there's outstanding deer numbers and hunting opportunities! DON'T miss the Omaha Nebraska buck or the Salt Lake City buck either. Right here in NE WA since the predators have taken over I can probably show you more deer quicker in the city of Colville than in the country.
Most of us want to hunt in a country setting, but the rubbish that human development is causing the loss of deer and elk herds is simply green propaganda. Yes people need to tie up dogs, yes we lose deer on highways, yes i hate to see winter range developed, but predators have prevented herds from recovering from hard winters and that's why herds are not what they used to be!
LOL..... Estes park. Lets not forget that there is no HUNTING impact in many of those places either :chuckle:
You are absolutely correct. I didn't say there was hunting, I was pointing out that elk and other wildlife can flourish alongside humans. Additionally, if you watch those videos you won't see too many cougar or wolves roaming, another reason the elk and deer are flourishing right alongside humans.
Only if tolerated. That was my point. Open a general season in estes and see how long it lasts. Or put that herd adjacent to a bunch of farmers crops and see if it goes unnoticed and if anyone is crying about damage. And thats before crossing the fence about who gets the say so on what happens with the animals. Estes and similar areas are unique in that most folks see eye to eye on mangement. Not sure I want anymore growth where those types of folks are seeing eye to eye on how to manage ungulate herds. Not beneficial for me at all.
Some people have insinuated that human development causes deer and elk to die off, that they can't survive along side humans. I proved that is absolutely false!
I think you are confusing hunting in that issue. No matter where we hunt animals will flee when the shooting starts, that's completely different issue. It's not the human presence that kills animals, they can survive right alongside humans.
Of course I'm like most everyone, I don't want to see human developments everywhere, we need wild places, but I expect people to get the facts straight!
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 11:39:38 AM
Nothing has been twisted. Re-read all the posts in this thread :tup:It's amazing that some people believe more human development and loss of habitat is either a non-issue or is a benefit to wildlife. A few hundred wolves inhabit this state...and 7+ million humans...but yea, wolves are definitely the biggest threat. Lets develop a whole bunch more land so we can make safe places for the deer in towns. :rolleyes:
Hunting and Conservation of wildlife is not a Republican or Democrat issue...anybody who tries to intimidate or ridicule others on a party line basis is clueless and out of touch with whats going on. There are good elected leaders in both parties working to do good things for hunters and wildlife...and there are really bad, dumb elected leaders in both parties doing things that undermine hunting.
Again misinformation and twisting what's been said. Not surprised, I knew my post would bring out certain persons. :chuckle:
I said deer and elk can thrive alongside humans and I showed the proof. The biggest reason WA herds are declining is because hard winters take a big toll on herds, at that point the many predators have a larger impact on the herds and it becomes hard for those herds to recover. Colorado has the same exploding human population as WA yet has record elk herds, but no wolves, yet!
Your last line is hilarious...it's like you are suggesting the only difference between Colorado and Washington is wolves. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
and we have WDFW, nuff said...
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 13, 2019, 11:40:17 AM
Deer are not safe in towns either. I have seen 8 deer killed by autos within city limits this year, 1 killed by dogs. On the contrary I drive Wenatchee to Leavenworth 4 trips a day, and have yet to see a single deer roadkill between 5am-3pm.
Again, not saying Predators are the sole problem, nor are humans, Just cant swallow the "Its all the wolfs fault" koolaid.
It's amazing that some people believe more human development and loss of habitat is either a non-issue or is a benefit to wildlife. A few hundred wolves inhabit this state...and 7+ million humans...but yea, wolves are definitely the biggest threat. Lets develop a whole bunch more land so we can make safe places for the deer in towns. :rolleyes:
:yeah:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 13, 2019, 11:41:33 AM
The wolf lovers will never be swayed. They claim they aren't pro-wolf, but defend wolves whenever possible. They are the educated intellectuals that love "facts" but just don't force common sense on them. Their abundance in this state is the reason predators are treated like gods and their defense of WDFW is steadfast. At least wolfbait draws them out to show us it isn't just the game department and anti's we are up against on the issue of wolves.
There is a big difference between being a wolf lover and someone who can appreciate nature in it's natural state. The WDFW and any other organization acquiring habitat is a good thing for the flora and the fauna. All the Fauna. I believe that Wolves should be hunted and should fear man. I also believe that it is sad that Wolves were eradicated they are an awesome creature. I believe that we should be able to hunt Cats with dogs to control the population better but I love Cougars and I would not want to live in a world that they do not exist.
WDFW acquiring this land is a good thing.
THIS :tup: :tup: :tup:
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on February 13, 2019, 11:44:27 AM
Some of you people have been hand fed to much liberal propaganda and you believe it. You can't blame dieing herds all on the impacts of humans! In fact the contrary is far more truthful.
There's some very important history that most people keep forgetting or never learned. Lewis and Clark nearly starved to death crossing the Rocky Mountain west (it's all documented) until they got to the Columbia River system and found abundant food, they barely survived the Rocky Mountain region. The only reason there has been abundant deer and elk populations in the mountains is because predators were hunted hard for decades and their numbers brought down to a point where deer, elk, and eventually even moose could flourish.
Ungulate herds have actually flourished with the settlement of the far west. The first two Hudson Bay trading posts in the west were first near Astoria and second at Kettle Falls. There are records of hundreds of wolf hides being traded by the Indian tribes in the early 1800's. My grandfathers both homesteaded here in the very early 1900's, as a little boy my father and grandfather traded with the Indians for salmon at Kettle Falls. My father watched loggers clear land along the Columbia River while Coulee Dam was being built. My dad hunted with Cougar Sam one of the famed cougar bounty hunters during the middle of the 1900's. It was not until after the wolves were brought under control and then cougar were brought under control that ungulate herds really flourished. The 1960's and 1970's were the peak.
Obviously there's a reason there was no moose season at all until near the end of the 1900's, there were almost no moose before that time! Moose have only flourished after predators were controlled and logging operations created huge amounts of perfect habitat.
For those who seem a little foggy on this and especially anyone who has never read any of it, please look up the Lewis and Clark records and the Hudson Bay records!
Elk and deer literally flourish right in the middle of human development! Colorado has the largest elk herd in the world and the epicenter is right in downtown Estes park Colorado! Within the city limits of our nations capitol WA DC there's outstanding deer numbers and hunting opportunities! DON'T miss the Omaha Nebraska buck or the Salt Lake City buck either. Right here in NE WA since the predators have taken over I can probably show you more deer quicker in the city of Colville than in the country.
Most of us want to hunt in a country setting, but the rubbish that human development is causing the loss of deer and elk herds is simply green propaganda. Yes people need to tie up dogs, yes we lose deer on highways, yes i hate to see winter range developed, but predators have prevented herds from recovering from hard winters and that's why herds are not what they used to be!
LOL..... Estes park. Lets not forget that there is no HUNTING impact in many of those places either :chuckle:
You are absolutely correct. I didn't say there was hunting, I was pointing out that elk and other wildlife can flourish alongside humans. Additionally, if you watch those videos you won't see too many cougar or wolves roaming, another reason the elk and deer are flourishing right alongside humans.
Only if tolerated. That was my point. Open a general season in estes and see how long it lasts. Or put that herd adjacent to a bunch of farmers crops and see if it goes unnoticed and if anyone is crying about damage. And thats before crossing the fence about who gets the say so on what happens with the animals. Estes and similar areas are unique in that most folks see eye to eye on mangement. Not sure I want anymore growth where those types of folks are seeing eye to eye on how to manage ungulate herds. Not beneficial for me at all.
Some people have insinuated that human development causes deer and elk to die off, that they can't survive along side humans. I proved that is absolutely false!
I think you are confusing hunting in that issue. No matter where we hunt animals will flee when the shooting starts, that's completely different issue. It's not the human presence that kills animals, they can survive right alongside humans.
Of course I'm like most everyone, I don't want to see human developments everywhere, we need wild places, but I expect people to get the facts straight!
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 11:45:13 AM
Poor Buttons...
https://kimatv.com/news/local/buttons-the-beloved-cle-elum-elk-has-been-tranquilized-and-rehomed
https://www.timescolonist.com/islander/b-c-ending-relocation-of-troublesome-carnivores-1.2336629
B.C. ending relocation of troublesome carnivores
After coming into contact with people, it will be aversion measures — or death
B.C. will no longer relocate large carnivores long distances once they have been in conflict with humans or habituated to human food. Instead, an updated Ministry of the Environment policy says the animals will be destroyed if aversion measures to promote fear of people cannot be implemented.
I can probably google up lots more liberal propaganda showing wildlife living too close to humans is a problem too but I wouldn't want to pollute my noggin any more than it already is.
;)
There are wildlife issues everywhere, I guess I'm missing exactly what you are trying to say, or were you replying to my comments, I wasn't sure? :dunno:
Post by: jackelope on February 13, 2019, 11:50:04 AM
Poor Buttons...
https://kimatv.com/news/local/buttons-the-beloved-cle-elum-elk-has-been-tranquilized-and-rehomed
https://www.timescolonist.com/islander/b-c-ending-relocation-of-troublesome-carnivores-1.2336629
B.C. ending relocation of troublesome carnivores
After coming into contact with people, it will be aversion measures — or death
B.C. will no longer relocate large carnivores long distances once they have been in conflict with humans or habituated to human food. Instead, an updated Ministry of the Environment policy says the animals will be destroyed if aversion measures to promote fear of people cannot be implemented.
I can probably google up lots more liberal propaganda showing wildlife living too close to humans is a problem too but I wouldn't want to pollute my noggin any more than it already is.
;)
There are wildlife issues everywhere, I guess I'm missing exactly what you are trying to say, or were you replying to my comments, I wasn't sure? :dunno:
Basically I'm saying that for all the Estes park examples, there are examples to point the other way regarding human/wildlife relations.
Post by: jackelope on February 13, 2019, 11:50:47 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on February 13, 2019, 11:52:30 AM
WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. :twocents:
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 12:04:48 PM
Quote
I agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.
I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.
From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.
I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? :dunno:
I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.
WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. :twocents:
In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. :hello:
Post by: Buckhunter82 on February 13, 2019, 12:06:32 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on February 13, 2019, 12:10:24 PM
In areas where tolerance is higher or the damage is not that costly - the ag interface can be a very productive thing for wildlife...great food source!
Post by: jackelope on February 13, 2019, 12:12:02 PM
I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.QuoteI agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.
I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.
From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.
I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? :dunno:I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.
WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. :twocents:
In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. :hello:
The point that I, and I believe a few others are trying to make, is that several factors all add up to create major issues. Some part wolves...some part humans moving in, some part habitat loss.
Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc.
Post by: bigmacc on February 13, 2019, 12:15:44 PM
So I'm confused, Very few deer, but there's roadkill? Where did the roadkill come from?
Ignorant guy here...…... :chuckle:.
No Comment........ :chuckle:
:chuckle: :tup: at least you got it.
I'm not a wolf lover, or hater, but i do like to base my thoughts on fact, not fiction.
To me its really simple, Predators eat prey.(fact) Both species will fluctuate populations depending on how the other is doing.(fact) The Methow deer herd has been historically low for several years now(fact) so why the drastic increase in predators(wolf/lion)?
To blame all of, or the majority of, the deer herds reduction on wolf/cat predation is fiction.
For NOCK NOCK
I will chime in as far as the Methow goes, you are right about the herd "being historically low for several years now". What you may be missing is that it has been low for periods at a time through history and has always bounced back. Historically this herd has been darn near bullet proof. Winters of 68-69, winters of 36-37, winters of 18-19, horrible winters in the 70,s and 90,s and 10 year draughts, throw in some fires too going back 100 years if you like. Thousands and thousands of deer perished, especially 68-69 where its estimated anywhere from 5-9 thousand died. I told stories in another thread of what my dad and I witnessed during that winter. The herd bounced back within 3 to 6 years. In its day, at its peak it fluctuated anywhere from 30-40 thousand head(50,s and 60,s), the herd held fairly stable numbers through the 70,s ,80,s and 90,s with some minor ups and downs. This herd has been declining for 20-25 years with no "bouncing back", is it just a coincidence that is roughly when predator numbers began going through the roof? you tell me. it continues to fall, its roughly half the size of its historic numbers and continues to plummet.This herd (was at one time) THE largest migrating herd in the country, bar none. Predators are pounding this herd PERIOD and bouncing back is not happening until that issue is addressed. With all do respect, this once thriving herd, the largest in the country has been devastated by ALL predators including a new one(wolf) that has been roaming this valley for at least 25 years (that I myself know of). Now throw in exploding cougar and bear populations, well somethings gonna give, this herd is still "alive" but barely.....Eventually the predators will be gone or reduced, some will starve but only when this herds been reduced to the point that makes your scenario possible, "both species will fluctuate depending on how the others doing", which for me, concerning this particular herd is a very sad way to look at things, something could and should be done through management concerning predators in this state.....sorry, rant over. and yes, they have heard from me.
With all due respect, Your not getting the point. I am all for better predator management, but refuse to put all the blame on predators for the declining herds.
Mule deer and predators have coexisted for longer than your above stated times. Why are the predators just now decimating the herds?
Human predator numbers have also "exploded" in the valley. Do you believe they have an effect on deer herd health?
Do you believe hard winters kill deer?
Do you believe fires kill deer?
Is it just a coincidence that herds started declining at the same time frame humans started increasing?
Or, is it all to blame on the wolves and cats????
Have you killed any of these massive amounts of predators? Cat? Bear? Reading your posts you say you have seen lots of them...……. kill some...... help the deer out. :twocents:
I am not trying to argue, or call you out, as I am positive you are a stand up guy, but just tired of seeing all the blame put on predators as the ONLY reason herds are declining. (FICTION)
[/quote]
NOCK NOCK
I am getting your point but you may not have read all my other posts and therefor may be misunderstanding mine. I am responding to you because you may be confusing me with others. Nowhere have I said or will I ever say that predators are the ONLY reason the Methow herd is being decimated, I have said there are many reasons this herd is suffering but IMHO at the top of the list is growing predator numbers and the addition and growing population of the wolf, a new apex predator who we all know are amazing killers. Second on that list would be MIS-MANAGEMENT of BOTH the predators and the deer herd. Fires , winters, etc. are all playing roles also. As I said, tough winters, fires and draughts have been going on since the beginning of time in the Methow. I can only go back to 1917 and tell you from family journals, talks with my dad and great-grandparents and my own personal experiences going back to the 1950,s that predators have never been an issue until the last 20 or so years, in fact seeing a cougar or bear was such a rarity to see in the Methow when I was young that when you did run into one it was neat to see. Once again I said in another post that it was a rarity to find predator kills(cached), just this last year we found dozens, all cougar kills, we seen the cat but couldn't get a clean shot, we told some other fellas that had tags and were experienced cat hunters and they went in and killed it. I will say it again and I stand by this and I agree with bearpaw, Mother Nature will throw haymakers at this herd for the rest of time as she has from the beginning, whats different in the last 20 years is booming predator populations and these populations which are growing by the year are PREVENTING this herd from recovering or bouncing back like I said in the other post. Concerning your question on my killing predators, yes, I myself have probably killed over 100 coyotes in my lifetime in the Methow, as far as bear, we have killed around 10 over the years and 0 cougars. Like I said, back in the day it was so rare to see a cat or bear they were just neat to see, I can count on one hand the number of cats Ive seen UP UNTIL about 20 years ago, now in the last 20 years I would need many more hands. I also said in a previous post that we are all studying up on cougar hunting for next year, none of us have ever hunted them, there was just never a need to in the past and since the gloves were put on concerning controlling these things, now there is. Your other question was did I think hard winters kill deer, you will need to read my other posts about some of the tough winters I,ve witnessed(the worst being 68-69), I can't keep re-writing stuff, my finger gets tired on this keyboard. Sorry some of this stuff is repetition, just explaining myself.
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 12:20:21 PM
Again...just another something that adds to the issues wildlife has staying alive. It's not just predators.
Do you really think I'm that shallow. :chuckle: I say that in a friendly manner, don't take it as snapping back at you.
Of course there are a ton of factors that impact herds, including all those fenced orchards and shooting depredating wildlife in those orchards. We need to find better answers to a lot of issues. But simple math dictates that over populated predators prevent naturally depleted herds (hard winters and big fires) from easily recovering. Every one of you needs to stop and think about this, the Methow herds took another big dive after the hard winter and big fires. It's very likely the over populated predators that will slow these herds from recovering.
Government studies have shown each wolf eats about 17 elk or 42 deer per year. Government studies have shown each cougar eats 25 to 50 deer per year. I'm not a math wiz but I can easily figure how much impact 20 or 30 wolves and 250 to 500 cougar can have on a local deer herd even if they are only eating half as many deer because they are having as much trouble finding something to eat as hunters are having.
(those were just quick estimates of predator numbers but they are probably pretty close)
I say all this in a friendly manner! :hello:
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 12:23:46 PM
I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.QuoteI agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.
I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.
From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.
I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? :dunno:I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.
WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. :twocents:
In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. :hello:
The point that I, and I believe a few others are trying to make, is that several factors all add up to create major issues. Some part wolves...some part humans moving in, some part habitat loss.
Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc.
No predators in Yakima?
How about cougars and coyotes, and wait till the wolves expand more into yakima. It's the additional predation that makes the biggest impact!
Post by: jackelope on February 13, 2019, 12:25:01 PM
I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.QuoteI agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.
I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.
From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.
I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? :dunno:I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.
WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. :twocents:
In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. :hello:
The point that I, and I believe a few others are trying to make, is that several factors all add up to create major issues. Some part wolves...some part humans moving in, some part habitat loss.
Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc.
No predators in Yakima?
How about cougars and coyotes, and wait till the wolves expand more into yakima. It's the additional predation that makes the biggest impact!
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said...and I quote with a copy and paste.... "Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc."
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 12:25:41 PM
To add to the human/wildlife interface not always being all that beneficial for wildlife...crop damage by wildlife (and the lack of tolerance for such damage by producers) is a major driver of lower population objectives across the Western US. Once the State sets a lower objective, they use very aggressive hunts to slaughter the elk and bring populations down to levels that are more acceptable to producers. As an example, take a look at whats being proposed across southern Idaho this year...
In areas where tolerance is higher or the damage is not that costly - the ag interface can be a very productive thing for wildlife...great food source!
I completely agree with this comment, I mentioned that factor in one of my posts. :tup:
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 12:28:55 PM
I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.QuoteI agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.
I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.
From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.
I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? :dunno:I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.
WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. :twocents:
In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. :hello:
The point that I, and I believe a few others are trying to make, is that several factors all add up to create major issues. Some part wolves...some part humans moving in, some part habitat loss.
Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc.
No predators in Yakima?
How about cougars and coyotes, and wait till the wolves expand more into yakima. It's the additional predation that makes the biggest impact!
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said...and I quote with a copy and paste.... "Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc."
I read your post exactly, I simply commented that there are other predators impacting those herds and when wolves arrive the impact will be even worse. Again it's hard to convey this but I am saying all this in a friendly manner, not trying to ruffle your feathers or put words in your mouth and I'm sorry if you took it that way. :hello:
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 12:32:33 PM
Post by: bigmacc on February 13, 2019, 12:33:23 PM
Again...just another something that adds to the issues wildlife has staying alive. It's not just predators.
Do you really think I'm that shallow. :chuckle: I say that in a friendly manner, don't take it as snapping back at you.
Of course there are a ton of factors that impact herds, including all those fenced orchards and shooting depredating wildlife in those orchards. We need to find better answers to a lot of issues. But simple math dictates that over populated predators prevent naturally depleted herds (hard winters and big fires) from easily recovering. Every one of you needs to stop and think about this, the Methow herds took another big dive after the hard winter and big fires. It's very likely the over populated predators that will slow these herds from recovering.
Government studies have shown each wolf eats about 17 elk or 42 deer per year. Government studies have shown each cougar eats 25 to 50 deer per year. I'm not a math wiz but I can easily figure how much impact 20 or 30 wolves and 250 to 500 cougar can have on a local deer herd even if they are only eating half as many deer because they are having as much trouble finding something to eat as hunters are having.
(those were just quick estimates of predator numbers but they are probably pretty close)
I say all this in a friendly manner! :hello:
I 100% agree.
Post by: bigmacc on February 13, 2019, 12:34:24 PM
I'm going to inject another little comment here, if WDFW would simply start managing cougars and wolves to prevent localized predator over populations most of this elk and deer problem would go away. Idaho has elk herds in the accessible areas of Idaho at or near record levels, if the greeners would let Idaho manage wolves in the wilderness areas those herds would also begin recover.
I again 100% agree.
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 12:36:50 PM
I'm going to inject another little comment here, if WDFW would simply start managing cougars and wolves to prevent localized predator over populations most of this elk and deer problem would go away. Idaho has elk herds in the accessible areas of Idaho at or near record levels, if the greeners would let Idaho manage wolves in the wilderness areas those herds would also begin recover.
That reinforces my previous point that it's not the humans necessarily causing herd declines, there are no cities or orchards in the Selway or Frank wilderness, it's the predators that are preventing those herds from recovering from harsh winters. I rest my case! :twocents:
Post by: jackelope on February 13, 2019, 12:37:32 PM
I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.QuoteI agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.
I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.
From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.
I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? :dunno:I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.
WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. :twocents:
In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. :hello:
The point that I, and I believe a few others are trying to make, is that several factors all add up to create major issues. Some part wolves...some part humans moving in, some part habitat loss.
Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc.
No predators in Yakima?
How about cougars and coyotes, and wait till the wolves expand more into yakima. It's the additional predation that makes the biggest impact!
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said...and I quote with a copy and paste.... "Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc."
I read your post exactly, I simply commented that there are other predators impacting those herds and when wolves arrive the impact will be even worse. Again it's hard to convey this but I am saying all this in a friendly manner, not trying to ruffle your feathers or put words in your mouth and I'm sorry if you took it that way. :hello:
Yeah I get it...it's all good. I was just trying to show an example to show that there are other significant factors and the issues vary greatly from area to area....not using all predators as an example...just wolves...in Yakima...right now. I understand what the future holds and all that.
Just talking about today.
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 12:40:06 PM
I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.QuoteI agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.
I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.
From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.
I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? :dunno:I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.
WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. :twocents:
In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. :hello:
The point that I, and I believe a few others are trying to make, is that several factors all add up to create major issues. Some part wolves...some part humans moving in, some part habitat loss.
Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc.
No predators in Yakima?
How about cougars and coyotes, and wait till the wolves expand more into yakima. It's the additional predation that makes the biggest impact!
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said...and I quote with a copy and paste.... "Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc."
I read your post exactly, I simply commented that there are other predators impacting those herds and when wolves arrive the impact will be even worse. Again it's hard to convey this but I am saying all this in a friendly manner, not trying to ruffle your feathers or put words in your mouth and I'm sorry if you took it that way. :hello:
Yeah I get it...it's all good. I was just trying to show an example to show that there are other significant factors and the issues vary greatly from area to area....not using all predators as an example...just wolves...in Yakima...right now. I understand what the future holds and all that.
Just talking about today.
It's too easy to not easily express our thoughts on the internet and often people argue almost identical points but from slightly different angles, I know you know what i mean. LOL
Post by: Rainier10 on February 13, 2019, 01:25:40 PM
Wildfires, hard winters and habitat loss have been happening for years. People look at the current low numbers and see the new variable wolves or the change in predator management from using dogs and bait to not being allowed to use those tools.
Low numbers and change in predators and management techniques. The straw that broke the camels back and the most recent change.
I think changes to need to be made in all areas affecting the herd numbers there is no "one fix" that will get the numbers back up.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 13, 2019, 01:33:33 PM
What I don't get is how a lot of folks are saying, "_________" is THE reason, or "the Main reason" the herds are declining. Unless you are God, or the wholly grail of Biologists..(even that's debatable :chuckle:), its all based on speculation and emotion.
Every area is different, as well as the critters that inhabit them. What could be the leading cause of herd decline in one area, may very well be at the bottom end of the spectrum in another.
@bigmacc , Its all good :tup: I'm just trying to state my opinion that wolves, cats, bears, humans, are not the end all, its a multitude of issues. And yes, my finger gets tired too.....Us one finger typers gotta stick together. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 01:37:09 PM
One thing that I will add is the wolf thing is a new developement that is easy to point at.
Wildfires, hard winters and habitat loss have been happening for years. People look at the current low numbers and see the new variable wolves or the change in predator management from using dogs and bait to not being allowed to use those tools.
Low numbers and change in predators and management techniques. The straw that broke the camels back and the most recent change.
I think changes to need to be made in all areas affecting the herd numbers there is no "one fix" that will get the numbers back up.
I know it sounds good to say that and a guy wants to feel that it's all the factors causing the reduction in numbers but again I have to use Idaho as a point to consider. Idaho is growing fast too, yet there are near record numbers of elk in areas with all the access and growth. Yet in the wilderness where green groups are preventing IDFG from taking helicopters and preventing hired contractors from reducing wolf numbers, the elk are at or near historic lows. Before wolves those wilderness areas were the best elk areas in idaho.
I say this in a friendly manner! :hello:
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 01:41:27 PM
let me add again so somebody doesn't say I am only blaming wolves, i understand there are other factors, but there is strong evidence wolves are one of the biggest factors limiting herds
Post by: Bob33 on February 13, 2019, 01:45:29 PM
and then there's colorado, growing like mad, developments everywhere, no wolves, record numbers of elk :dunno:Yes indeed.
1983 mule deer population: 625,000
2018 mule deer population: 408,000
Number of known wild wolves: 0
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 01:49:17 PM
and then there's colorado, growing like mad, developments everywhere, no wolves, record numbers of elk :dunno:Yes indeed.
1983 mule deer population: 625,000
2018 mule deer population: 408,000
Number of known wild wolves: 0
And the big difference is that if you look at deer numbers in CO a few years ago they were lower. CO like most states suffered winter loss, but they changed deer management and deer numbers are climbing. Arguably, in the Idaho wilderness where there are
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 13, 2019, 01:49:31 PM
and then there's colorado, growing like mad, developments everywhere, no wolves, record numbers of elk :dunno:but deer herds continue to shrink :dunno: I've watched it there for almost a decade. Development continues to chew up winter range and IT IS hitting the mule deer just like Wyoming and Idaho. A herd cannot outgrow its winter range. If it does mother nature resets it. Fire and development that nukes winter range holding capacity IS the biggest elephant in the room.
I also blame elk. Since Yakima was mentioned, elk are taking over our MD winter range. I spend a considerable amount of time out and about and I see no more bear and cats (visual sightings as well as scat and track) as I did a decade ago. The exploding predator population is an over hyped think. At least in my neck of the woods :twocents:
Post by: jackelope on February 13, 2019, 01:54:06 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on February 13, 2019, 01:55:34 PM
Numbers were lowered on purpose by man and now the wolf and other predators are just doing what they have always done, eat elk and elk calves.
20 years ago there was a muzzleloading season up there. ML area 911. They cancelled it because herd numbers were under population objectives for the land. They said the land could carry 7,500 head. Twenty years later, a few fires and I am sure tons of complaining from the timothy hay farmers about crop damage and they decide the herd is over objective and say the land can only carry 5,500-6,000 head or something like that.
I think that if we did a poll you would get answers all across the board because each GMU has different variables affecting it at that point.
I am sure the Idaho wilderness is not affected by development is more affected by wolves and predators.
I am sure the people in South Prarie/Bonney Lake would say the elk numbers are affected there more because of habitat loss than predators.
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 01:56:33 PM
and then there's colorado, growing like mad, developments everywhere, no wolves, record numbers of elk :dunno:but deer herds continue to shrink :dunno: I've watched it there for almost a decade. Development continues to chew up winter range and IT IS hitting the mule deer just like Wyoming and Idaho. A herd cannot outgrow its winter range. If it does mother nature resets it. Fire and development that nukes winter range holding capacity IS the biggest elephant in the room.
I also blame elk. Since Yakima was mentioned, elk are taking over our MD winter range. I spend a considerable amount of time out and about and I see no more bear and cats (visual sightings as well as scat and track) as I did a decade ago. The exploding predator population is an over hyped think. At least in my neck of the woods :twocents:
I have to somewhat agree, elk certainly can out compete deer. I don't believe that happens too much in WA, we don't have that many animals. But honestly I'm not a Yakima area expert, if you think there are too many elk there you would know better than me. I was under the impression elk herds were down? Was I wrong about that? If I am wrong I'm willing to bet that changes as soon as there are as many wolf packs as in the NE!
Not being unfriendly, just continuing the conversation. :tup:
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 01:59:33 PM
I can say where my cabin is in the colockum the reason for the massive decline in elk numbers is the game department decided to reduce the herd numbers by giving out tons of permits for cows and bulls. Now the numbers are lower and I am competing with the predators for less elk.
Numbers were lowered on purpose by man and now the wolf and other predators are just doing what they have always done, eat elk and elk calves.
20 years ago there was a muzzleloading season up there. ML area 911. They cancelled it because herd numbers were under population objectives for the land. They said the land could carry 7,500 head. Twenty years later, a few fires and I am sure tons of complaining from the timothy hay farmers about crop damage and they decide the herd is over objective and say the land can only carry 5,500-6,000 head or something like that.
I think that if we did a poll you would get answers all across the board because each GMU has different variables affecting it at that point.
I am sure the Idaho wilderness is not affected by development is more affected by wolves and predators.
I am sure the people in South Prarie/Bonney Lake would say the elk numbers are affected there more because of habitat loss than predators.
That all makes sense, I agree, but wait till you have more wolf packs, I'm willing to lay a benjamin on the line right here and now that your elk number drop further?
I'm saying this in a friendly manner, please don't take it wrong, just replying back.
Post by: Rainier10 on February 13, 2019, 02:06:56 PM
I agree with that 100%.I can say where my cabin is in the colockum the reason for the massive decline in elk numbers is the game department decided to reduce the herd numbers by giving out tons of permits for cows and bulls. Now the numbers are lower and I am competing with the predators for less elk.
Numbers were lowered on purpose by man and now the wolf and other predators are just doing what they have always done, eat elk and elk calves.
20 years ago there was a muzzleloading season up there. ML area 911. They cancelled it because herd numbers were under population objectives for the land. They said the land could carry 7,500 head. Twenty years later, a few fires and I am sure tons of complaining from the timothy hay farmers about crop damage and they decide the herd is over objective and say the land can only carry 5,500-6,000 head or something like that.
I think that if we did a poll you would get answers all across the board because each GMU has different variables affecting it at that point.
I am sure the Idaho wilderness is not affected by development is more affected by wolves and predators.
I am sure the people in South Prarie/Bonney Lake would say the elk numbers are affected there more because of habitat loss than predators.
That all makes sense, I agree, but wait till you have more wolf packs, I'm willing to lay a benjamin on the line right here and now that your elk number drop further?
I'm saying this in a friendly manner, please don't take it wrong, just replying back.
I think it is great that they have the state broken up into GMU's that makes it easier to manage these areas.
Management is what we need and unfortunately I think what the WDFW is having to manage right now is people and the people with the clearest message being relayed to them are the people wanting predators increased and crop damage decreased both very bad things for ungulates.
Hunters and outdoors men are having a tough time coming up with a clear message that we all stand behind.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 13, 2019, 02:07:29 PM
Another issue our deer face is while I don't think they have lost a ton of habitat over the years the habitat has absolutely changed. We haven't logged anything in decades and we suppress every fire that Sparks up. Our forests are thicker than ever before and nothing grows there anymore. The holding capacity for deer just isn't that high
Post by: woodswalker on February 13, 2019, 02:18:14 PM
Dale you are correct they are down by about a third from just a few years ago but we had a 3 year season cycle of thousands of additional antlerless permits because the herd was busting at the seams. Then winter kill of 2016. Perfect storm of events to really snack our herd on the chin. Historically though we still have more elk than ever before.
Another issue our deer face is while I don't think they have lost a ton of habitat over the years the habitat has absolutely changed. We haven't logged anything in decades and we suppress every fire that Sparks up. Our forests are thicker than ever before and nothing grows there anymore. The holding capacity for deer just isn't that high
Karl, Yes the reduction in (/elimination of) logging has had a huge impact on the deer herds in the woodlands. You get dark forest reprod that is so thick its kills all the undergrowth and will take 35 years to self-thin to where there is an understory again. No thinning, no opening of new cuts, no new food sources and the deer go away. ALSO...when the logging/land companies spray broadleaf herbicides to cut down the alder and other broadleaf trees that compete with the desirable conifers, there goes another food source.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 13, 2019, 02:21:42 PM
and dont get me started on wood cutting! I was cutting and selling cords of firewood at 15. In my 20 yards of selling and burning they haven't rotated cutting areas. I'd say they would rather have it burn in the woods rather than my home but they put out fires in the woods too :bash:Dale you are correct they are down by about a third from just a few years ago but we had a 3 year season cycle of thousands of additional antlerless permits because the herd was busting at the seams. Then winter kill of 2016. Perfect storm of events to really snack our herd on the chin. Historically though we still have more elk than ever before.
Another issue our deer face is while I don't think they have lost a ton of habitat over the years the habitat has absolutely changed. We haven't logged anything in decades and we suppress every fire that Sparks up. Our forests are thicker than ever before and nothing grows there anymore. The holding capacity for deer just isn't that high
Karl, Yes the reduction in (/elimination of) logging has had a huge impact on the deer herds in the woodlands. You get dark forest reprod that is so thick its kills all the undergrowth and will take 35 years to self-thin to where there is an understory again. No thinning, no opening of new cuts, no new food sources and the deer go away. ALSO...when the logging/land companies spray broadleaf herbicides to cut down the alder and other broadleaf trees that compete with the desirable conifers, there goes another food source.
Post by: Special T on February 13, 2019, 02:44:13 PM
WHY does the WDFW push habitat acquisition over any and all other methods of "managing" game?
1. They are utilizing a lot of federal $ so very little comes out of thier budget.
2. Nobody Sue's them over acquiring land.
WDFW reacts from a position of weakness which is why we see the department sell these acquisitions so hard.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: jstone on February 13, 2019, 03:02:01 PM
Post by: bigmacc on February 13, 2019, 03:16:41 PM
and then there's colorado, growing like mad, developments everywhere, no wolves, record numbers of elk :dunno:but deer herds continue to shrink :dunno: I've watched it there for almost a decade. Development continues to chew up winter range and IT IS hitting the mule deer just like Wyoming and Idaho. A herd cannot outgrow its winter range. If it does mother nature resets it. Fire and development that nukes winter range holding capacity IS the biggest elephant in the room.
I also blame elk. Since Yakima was mentioned, elk are taking over our MD winter range. I spend a considerable amount of time out and about and I see no more bear and cats (visual sightings as well as scat and track) as I did a decade ago. The exploding predator population is an over hyped think. At least in my neck of the woods :twocents:
Well said Karl, and like NOCK NOCK said "Every area is different, what could be the leading cause of herd decline in one area, may very well be at the bottom end of the spectrum in another" . In your area you are not seeing an increase in predators, in your neck of the woods you say it it over hyped. For those of us in "another area" (the Methow for instance) it is not over hyped, predators numbers are growing fast and have been for a couple decades now and as said the wolf packs are there and are expanding. Like you in your area, I too spend a lot of time in my neck of the woods and every year I,m seeing much more sign of the big 3(bear, cats and wolf). More sign, more kills and more sightings, every year we are recording more. There used to be elk in and out of the Methow but that was never an issue. As far as more people, yes there are more flickering lights in the valley than there used to be, that is true, but they are not "developments", heck, like some of us have noticed and mentioned, where people live is where the deer are ending up to try and avoid predators, we are seeing more and more deer in and around town than in the hills, I will try to dredge up a picture we took a couple years ago of about 20 deer in a friends yard including 5 deer on the guys deck and 1 nice 4 point laying on a couch that was on the deck! :chuckle:, GODS TRUTH!, seems there had been a cat spotted up in the cliffs above my friends place for about a month or so prior and the deer set up camp in his yard, on his deck and took over his patio furniture :chuckle:. A hunter killed the cat after a few weeks and low and behold the deer disappeared into the hills and my friend got his deck back. But also remember along the lines of what bearpaw said, predators may not be an issue in certain areas now but if left unmanaged they will spread, grow in numbers and eventually will become an issue.... :twocents:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 13, 2019, 03:53:47 PM
Like jaeger said, I believe every animal has a place on the landscape. A hunter who kills deer and elk but blindly hates an animal for killing deer and elk is a hypocrite. Pot meet kettle. In this Modern Age their numbers have to be managed so everything balances but to say that they just shouldn't be here I cannot and will not agree with that ever.
I put the wolf forum on ignore for one reason. That reason is wolfbait. His blind hatred is annoying. Someone mentioned just putting him on ignore but then I cant call out the fakenews when it infests the rest of the forum. The only reason that I even commented on this thread was because it was posted somewhere besides the wolf Forum and I was calling it out for the fake news that it is.
I am not a big fan of wdfw but I'm not going to judge every single thing that they do as a negative or having devious intentions. To do so is narrow-minded and ignorant. Every single game agency in the country knows that the number one reason for lack of new hunter Recruitment and Hunter retention is lack and loss of access. Pretty sure wdfw isn't making a land acquisition just so wolves have a little more place to roam. Probably a little better odds but they're doing it to ensure that there's somebody out there still willing to pay the bills.
Post by: bigmacc on February 13, 2019, 04:00:34 PM
Bigmacc, I hear you and understand fully what your observations anand experiences have been. I have also not seen anyone in this thread arguing the contrary :tup: I agree with most everything you have said. :tup:
Like jaeger said, I believe every animal has a place on the landscape. A hunter who kills deer and elk but blindly hates an animal for killing deer and elk is a hypocrite. Pot meet kettle. In this Modern Age their numbers have to be managed so everything balances but to say that they just shouldn't be here I cannot and will not agree with that ever.
I put the wolf forum on ignore for one reason. That reason is wolfbait. His blind hatred is annoying. Someone mentioned just putting him on ignore but then I cant call out the fakenews when it infests the rest of the forum. The only reason that I even commented on this thread was because it was posted somewhere besides the wolf Forum and I was calling it out for the fake news that it is.
I am not a big fan of wdfw but I'm not going to judge every single thing that they do as a negative or having devious intentions. To do so is narrow-minded and ignorant. Every single game agency in the country knows that the number one reason for lack of new hunter Recruitment and Hunter retention is lack and loss of access. Pretty sure wdfw isn't making a land acquisition just so wolves have a little more place to roam. Probably a little better odds but they're doing it to ensure that there's somebody out there still willing to pay the bills.
I understand :tup:
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on February 13, 2019, 04:56:21 PM
I am a self proclaimed wolf/predator "hater". They are competition and I want to avoid competition. I also "hate" when someone is parked at the trailhead I am going in, or bugling in the same canyon. The list goes on. Its annoying, and at times frustrating. If I could remove all the competition I would. That is human nature.
But, My only real hate is for those folks who choose to use an animal/s as a political tool to accomplish their end goal regardless of which "side" they are on. Hunters are caretakers as well, wiping out a species should not be the intent or is it likely in our best interest. What if our ancestors had left enough wolves on the landscape that we would not be having this discussion. They may not have ever been a blip on the radar. Science has shown animals are adaptable, These apex predators included, coddling them or protecting them further is unnecessary IMO they were given their chance to make a comeback, they were successful. Now its time for them to start competing as well. At the same time for me as a hunter singling them out as sole reasons of widespread decrease in ungulate numbers is equally silly and not logical either.
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 10:20:25 PM
I probably sound pretty critical of WDFW, it is all deserved. As a resident of NE WA they have failed me, I'm going to have to put up high fence just to protect my dogs. WDFW has failed my friends and neighbors who are trying to financially survive wolves killing their cattle. As a hound hunter and former trapper when younger who wanted to take his son trapping, WDFW has failed me. As a hunting guide who's livlihood depends on successful management WDFW has failed me. As a common citizen who enjoys taking an evening drive to see a few moose, WDFW has failed me. There's more but this should convey my general thoughts.
The tough part is that there are a lot of good people working for WDFW and they have nothing to do with the poor politically motivated decisions coming out of Olympia. To those good folks please accept my apology for generalizing my thoughts on WDFW management by simply saying WDFW. When you see my frequent rants about WDFW please trust that my dissatisfaction is with upper management. :hello:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 14, 2019, 05:22:47 AM
Post by: wolfbait on February 14, 2019, 08:15:12 AM
In NE WA we have cougar and wolf problems, lots of problems. I have a serious problem with a state that refuses to manage predators including wolves that have been delisted by the feds for several years now. In Idaho wolves are completely different acting since being hunted and herds are rebounding in many areas, that is the way it could and should be in NE WA.
I probably sound pretty critical of WDFW, it is all deserved. As a resident of NE WA they have failed me, I'm going to have to put up high fence just to protect my dogs. WDFW has failed my friends and neighbors who are trying to financially survive wolves killing their cattle. As a hound hunter and former trapper when younger who wanted to take his son trapping, WDFW has failed me. As a hunting guide who's livlihood depends on successful management WDFW has failed me. As a common citizen who enjoys taking an evening drive to see a few moose, WDFW has failed me. There's more but this should convey my general thoughts.
The tough part is that there are a lot of good people working for WDFW and they have nothing to do with the poor politically motivated decisions coming out of Olympia. To those good folks please accept my apology for generalizing my thoughts on WDFW management by simply saying WDFW. When you see my frequent rants about WDFW please trust that my dissatisfaction is with upper management. :hello:
Well said, Bearpaw!
I know for a fact that many in WDFW feel the same as we do about the wolves etc., agenda driven WDFW at the top and their "new age" biologist are the problem.
Post by: Tbar on February 14, 2019, 08:35:09 AM
Who is that?In NE WA we have cougar and wolf problems, lots of problems. I have a serious problem with a state that refuses to manage predators including wolves that have been delisted by the feds for several years now. In Idaho wolves are completely different acting since being hunted and herds are rebounding in many areas, that is the way it could and should be in NE WA.
I probably sound pretty critical of WDFW, it is all deserved. As a resident of NE WA they have failed me, I'm going to have to put up high fence just to protect my dogs. WDFW has failed my friends and neighbors who are trying to financially survive wolves killing their cattle. As a hound hunter and former trapper when younger who wanted to take his son trapping, WDFW has failed me. As a hunting guide who's livlihood depends on successful management WDFW has failed me. As a common citizen who enjoys taking an evening drive to see a few moose, WDFW has failed me. There's more but this should convey my general thoughts.
The tough part is that there are a lot of good people working for WDFW and they have nothing to do with the poor politically motivated decisions coming out of Olympia. To those good folks please accept my apology for generalizing my thoughts on WDFW management by simply saying WDFW. When you see my frequent rants about WDFW please trust that my dissatisfaction is with upper management. :hello:
Well said, Bearpaw!
I know for a fact that many in WDFW feel the same as we do about the wolves etc., agenda driven WDFW at the top and their "new age" biologist are the problem.
It is odd that the wolf Bio WDFW started out with many years ago is now the wolf lead for CNW. Do you think he infiltrated their organization? :dunno:
Post by: Magnum_Willys on February 14, 2019, 08:46:41 AM
Post by: Tbar on February 14, 2019, 08:56:20 AM
Looks like he was an assistant bio not the "wolf" bio. That said I don't know him or his stance on wolves or predator management but refuse to blame him for something without merit. Is he a logical/ practical thinker who is an asset to have at cnw? I don't know. Many state employees are very subject to process.Who is that?In NE WA we have cougar and wolf problems, lots of problems. I have a serious problem with a state that refuses to manage predators including wolves that have been delisted by the feds for several years now. In Idaho wolves are completely different acting since being hunted and herds are rebounding in many areas, that is the way it could and should be in NE WA.
I probably sound pretty critical of WDFW, it is all deserved. As a resident of NE WA they have failed me, I'm going to have to put up high fence just to protect my dogs. WDFW has failed my friends and neighbors who are trying to financially survive wolves killing their cattle. As a hound hunter and former trapper when younger who wanted to take his son trapping, WDFW has failed me. As a hunting guide who's livlihood depends on successful management WDFW has failed me. As a common citizen who enjoys taking an evening drive to see a few moose, WDFW has failed me. There's more but this should convey my general thoughts.
The tough part is that there are a lot of good people working for WDFW and they have nothing to do with the poor politically motivated decisions coming out of Olympia. To those good folks please accept my apology for generalizing my thoughts on WDFW management by simply saying WDFW. When you see my frequent rants about WDFW please trust that my dissatisfaction is with upper management. :hello:
Well said, Bearpaw!
I know for a fact that many in WDFW feel the same as we do about the wolves etc., agenda driven WDFW at the top and their "new age" biologist are the problem.
It is odd that the wolf Bio WDFW started out with many years ago is now the wolf lead for CNW. Do you think he infiltrated their organization? :dunno:
This person. When the Wedge pack was attempted to be removed he was under the employe of WDFW.
https://www.conservationnw.org/meet-our-staff/jay-shepherd/
Post by: boneaddict on February 14, 2019, 10:36:43 AM
In NE WA we have cougar and wolf problems, lots of problems. I have a serious problem with a state that refuses to manage predators including wolves that have been delisted by the feds for several years now. In Idaho wolves are completely different acting since being hunted and herds are rebounding in many areas, that is the way it could and should be in NE WA.
I probably sound pretty critical of WDFW, it is all deserved. As a resident of NE WA they have failed me, I'm going to have to put up high fence just to protect my dogs. WDFW has failed my friends and neighbors who are trying to financially survive wolves killing their cattle. As a hound hunter and former trapper when younger who wanted to take his son trapping, WDFW has failed me. As a hunting guide who's livlihood depends on successful management WDFW has failed me. As a common citizen who enjoys taking an evening drive to see a few moose, WDFW has failed me. There's more but this should convey my general thoughts.
The tough part is that there are a lot of good people working for WDFW and they have nothing to do with the poor politically motivated decisions coming out of Olympia. To those good folks please accept my apology for generalizing my thoughts on WDFW management by simply saying WDFW. When you see my frequent rants about WDFW please trust that my dissatisfaction is with upper management. :hello:
💥Boom. Nice :yeah:
Post by: bigmacc on February 14, 2019, 03:02:41 PM
In NE WA we have cougar and wolf problems, lots of problems. I have a serious problem with a state that refuses to manage predators including wolves that have been delisted by the feds for several years now. In Idaho wolves are completely different acting since being hunted and herds are rebounding in many areas, that is the way it could and should be in NE WA.
I probably sound pretty critical of WDFW, it is all deserved. As a resident of NE WA they have failed me, I'm going to have to put up high fence just to protect my dogs. WDFW has failed my friends and neighbors who are trying to financially survive wolves killing their cattle. As a hound hunter and former trapper when younger who wanted to take his son trapping, WDFW has failed me. As a hunting guide who's livlihood depends on successful management WDFW has failed me. As a common citizen who enjoys taking an evening drive to see a few moose, WDFW has failed me. There's more but this should convey my general thoughts.
The tough part is that there are a lot of good people working for WDFW and they have nothing to do with the poor politically motivated decisions coming out of Olympia. To those good folks please accept my apology for generalizing my thoughts on WDFW management by simply saying WDFW. When you see my frequent rants about WDFW please trust that my dissatisfaction is with upper management. :hello:
:tup: :tup: :tup: DILLY DILLY :tup:
Post by: idaho guy on February 14, 2019, 08:29:06 PM
One thing that I will add is the wolf thing is a new developement that is easy to point at.
Wildfires, hard winters and habitat loss have been happening for years. People look at the current low numbers and see the new variable wolves or the change in predator management from using dogs and bait to not being allowed to use those tools.
Low numbers and change in predators and management techniques. The straw that broke the camels back and the most recent change.
I think changes to need to be made in all areas affecting the herd numbers there is no "one fix" that will get the numbers back up.
I know it sounds good to say that and a guy wants to feel that it's all the factors causing the reduction in numbers but again I have to use Idaho as a point to consider. Idaho is growing fast too, yet there are near record numbers of elk in areas with all the access and growth. Yet in the wilderness where green groups are preventing IDFG from taking helicopters and preventing hired contractors from reducing wolf numbers, the elk are at or near historic lows. Before wolves those wilderness areas were the best elk areas in idaho.
:yeah: hard to argue with real life facts! In Idaho wolves impact is obvious to anyone willing too look or better yet see it in person. Wolves are the major factor in elk declines but I agree definitely not the only one. It’s just the really big one. Last two elk I have gotten have been the easiest ever in my life because the elk are living right next to town. Maybe I should be happy but it bothers me because elk don’t belong there. Some of the best remote habitat I used to hunt are now elk ghost towns. I finally went back to a deep spot this year after some trappers I know really got after it and the elk are coming back! Unfortunately the best wilderness areas will never be effectively trapped.
Post by: bigmacc on February 15, 2019, 10:15:08 AM
One thing that I will add is the wolf thing is a new developement that is easy to point at.
Wildfires, hard winters and habitat loss have been happening for years. People look at the current low numbers and see the new variable wolves or the change in predator management from using dogs and bait to not being allowed to use those tools.
Low numbers and change in predators and management techniques. The straw that broke the camels back and the most recent change.
I think changes to need to be made in all areas affecting the herd numbers there is no "one fix" that will get the numbers back up.
I know it sounds good to say that and a guy wants to feel that it's all the factors causing the reduction in numbers but again I have to use Idaho as a point to consider. Idaho is growing fast too, yet there are near record numbers of elk in areas with all the access and growth. Yet in the wilderness where green groups are preventing IDFG from taking helicopters and preventing hired contractors from reducing wolf numbers, the elk are at or near historic lows. Before wolves those wilderness areas were the best elk areas in idaho.
:yeah: hard to argue with real life facts! In Idaho wolves impact is obvious to anyone willing too look or better yet see it in person. Wolves are the major factor in elk declines but I agree definitely not the only one. It’s just the really big one. Last two elk I have gotten have been the easiest ever in my life because the elk are living right next to town. Maybe I should be happy but it bothers me because elk don’t belong there. Some of the best remote habitat I used to hunt are now elk ghost towns. I finally went back to a deep spot this year after some trappers I know really got after it and the elk are coming back! Unfortunately the best wilderness areas will never be effectively trapped.
I totally agree, its been ongoing in the Methow also over the last 20-25 years, and that is whats left of the local population are more and more hanging out closer to civilization. It used to be that the Methow was a bit unique(for a lack of a better word) because as said it had the largest migrating herd in the country along with a healthy and thriving local population, the local population was on the valley floor as well as in the hills just above the floor. I remember just 30 or so years ago driving(not even getting out of the rig) around some of the hills above Winthrop, Twisp and Carlton and seeing hundreds of deer on a nice August evening, you are lucky to see a handful now. With the growing predator issues and a spreading and growing wolf population there are not nearly as many deer period and for the most part, what is left of the local herd now clings to yards, corrals and driveways to survive. Where we found all the cougar kills this last season was 3-5 miles from a road and as I said, not a deer to be found over 2 days of hunting it, it was an area that over the last 50 years our group has killed over 200 deer in, over the last 20 years it has been declining each year seeing less and less, this year 0, not even a doe, it is about a 5-6 square mile area that 5 of us spread out in, not 1 deer, not 1. Fact is we seen more deer this last season in yards and in town than we seen putting on miles in the hills, I agree with Idaho guy, I too would rather be seeing these animals where they belong, most but not all of the places deer should be are more and more becoming void of deer. With the ways the seasons have been for awhile now, we are not hunting migrating deer(unless a freak weather hits early) we are hunting local to mid level deer which like the migrating herd are being slammed by predators and thats why we are seeing the "locals" cling to civilization more and more for safety...... :twocents: