WDFW Buying More Wolf Habitat

[vandeman17]

The real problem with the sort of things that Wolfbait likes to post is that it undermines our credibility as sportsmen and conservationists to be able to discuss real issues (like predators) and their impacts. The sort of propaganda that he distributes paints us in a light where we are very easily dismissed at all levels of important game management decisions.

While I do appreciate his enthusiasm, if it could be directed in better ways we could make some progress for fish and wildlife.

   Well said

[baldopepper]

The real problem with the sort of things that Wolfbait likes to post is that it undermines our credibility as sportsmen and conservationists to be able to discuss real issues (like predators) and their impacts. The sort of propaganda that he distributes paints us in a light where we are very easily dismissed at all levels of important game management decisions.

While I do appreciate his enthusiasm, if it could be directed in better ways we could make some progress for fish and wildlife.

[bigtex]

The real problem with the sort of things that Wolfbait likes to post is that it undermines our credibility as sportsmen and conservationists to be able to discuss real issues (like predators) and their impacts. The sort of propaganda that he distributes paints us in a light where we are very easily dismissed at all levels of important game management decisions.

While I do appreciate his enthusiasm, if it could be directed in better ways we could make some progress for fish and wildlife.

 

[Karl Blanchard]

The real problem with the sort of things that Wolfbait likes to post is that it undermines our credibility as sportsmen and conservationists to be able to discuss real issues (like predators) and their impacts. The sort of propaganda that he distributes paints us in a light where we are very easily dismissed at all levels of important game management decisions.

While I do appreciate his enthusiasm, if it could be directed in better ways we could make some progress for fish and wildlife.

 

spot on!

[wolfbait]

In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity".  I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see .....once again, all due respect.

No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.

https://muledeer.org/conservation/

Well, I am far from ignorant and I don't think anywhere in my statement did I blame the decline on a "single factor". I agree there are many elements that have contributed but it is also not a coincidence that the decline actually started with the predator  population going up and a new apex predator that arrived on the scene, at least in this state. Thats when we started noticing the decline, new laws on the books concerning our already established predators and as I said, a new one appearing and left to populate. Something has to give, an exploding predator population along with a growing population of the wolf, guess what they all have to eat and with populations of these predators on the rise they will eat more and more, in the last 20 years it has been noticed, another 5, 10 or 20 years, at this rate no one really knows what will be left. The Methow herd has been devastated, many factors are to blame but this herd has taken the biggest beating by an exploding predator issue combined with a Department that has put other priorities ahead of putting forth a "quality product" for the hunters of this state. Yes Mother Nature has hit our herds through the years just as she has since the beginning of time and will continue to do so for the rest of time, but how things are "managed" is what will and has determined the health of our herds, whether it be during predator explosions or when Mother Nature shows her bad side. In a nutshell, predators, Mother Nature and other factors are happening, and what we are seeing in our big game herds is a result of "managing" through these issues or as some are saying, mis-managing.....

Pretty sure he’s talking about the guy blaming everything on the wolves...not you.

You are getting in the way of Jackelope's pro-wolf pack, Bigmacc, you need to just be quiet and watch from the sidelines, as they tear chunks out of any part of this discussion where I blame the decline of deer on wolves. Doesn't matter if I blame other predators or management, they are here to make a point....That danged ole wolf hater etc...

 

In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity".  I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see .....once again, all due respect.

No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.

https://muledeer.org/conservation/

I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.

WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.

Your insults aimed at me make literally zero sense as usual and are totally uncalled for. You've been called out and are desperately fishing for ways to regain something. It ain't happening. All the people bashing your posts in this thread and picking them apart and you single me out? I didn't even attempt to insult you. Wow...you're desperate.

For clarification for the others reading this...all I was trying to do was clarify that Bob33 wasn't calling bigmacc ignorant.

 

There are a few people in this discussion that might be considered ignorant, but that's doubtful at this stage of the game. That being said I have read most of, if not all of Bigmacc's post on deer and wolves etc., I don't think he's too worried about anyone suggesting he's "ignorant".

[wolfbait]

Here's a little info. I found interesting...


F&G Protects Wolves, Rattlesnakes


http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%202%20April%202004.IDFG%20protects%20wolves,rattlesnakes.pdf


A New Solution to Non-Game Program Funding?


http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%2024%20Jul-Sep%202007%20A%20New%20Solution%20to%20Non-Game%20Program%20Funding%20.pdf

[jackelope]

In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity".  I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see .....once again, all due respect.

No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.

https://muledeer.org/conservation/

Well, I am far from ignorant and I don't think anywhere in my statement did I blame the decline on a "single factor". I agree there are many elements that have contributed but it is also not a coincidence that the decline actually started with the predator  population going up and a new apex predator that arrived on the scene, at least in this state. Thats when we started noticing the decline, new laws on the books concerning our already established predators and as I said, a new one appearing and left to populate. Something has to give, an exploding predator population along with a growing population of the wolf, guess what they all have to eat and with populations of these predators on the rise they will eat more and more, in the last 20 years it has been noticed, another 5, 10 or 20 years, at this rate no one really knows what will be left. The Methow herd has been devastated, many factors are to blame but this herd has taken the biggest beating by an exploding predator issue combined with a Department that has put other priorities ahead of putting forth a "quality product" for the hunters of this state. Yes Mother Nature has hit our herds through the years just as she has since the beginning of time and will continue to do so for the rest of time, but how things are "managed" is what will and has determined the health of our herds, whether it be during predator explosions or when Mother Nature shows her bad side. In a nutshell, predators, Mother Nature and other factors are happening, and what we are seeing in our big game herds is a result of "managing" through these issues or as some are saying, mis-managing.....

Pretty sure he’s talking about the guy blaming everything on the wolves...not you.

You are getting in the way of Jackelope's pro-wolf pack, Bigmacc, you need to just be quiet and watch from the sidelines, as they tear chunks out of any part of this discussion where I blame the decline of deer on wolves. Doesn't matter if I blame other predators or management, they are here to make a point....That danged ole wolf hater etc...

 

In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity".  I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see .....once again, all due respect.

No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.

https://muledeer.org/conservation/

I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.

WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.

Your insults aimed at me make literally zero sense as usual and are totally uncalled for. You've been called out and are desperately fishing for ways to regain something. It ain't happening. All the people bashing your posts in this thread and picking them apart and you single me out? I didn't even attempt to insult you. Wow...you're desperate.

For clarification for the others reading this...all I was trying to do was clarify that Bob33 wasn't calling bigmacc ignorant.

 

There are a few people in this discussion that might be considered ignorant, but that's doubtful at this stage of the game. That being said I have read most of, if not all of Bigmacc's post on deer and wolves etc., I don't think he's too worried about anyone suggesting he's "ignorant".

Which is good, because it's not him that anyone is suggesting is ignorant.

 

Oh hey...what do you know. Called out again and still coming for only me. One thing's for sure....you're predictable.

[bigmacc]

People have been noticing a decline in our ungulates for awhile now and especially a steady decline over the last 20 or so years. For a lot of us we especially noticed the decline in certain herds and for me it is the Methow herd because thats where my history is. There are others on here also that know this valley well and I,m sure have their own thoughts on why this particular herd is and has been in a tailspin and getting worse by the day. But for me and others (I would wager) this herd has been decimated by predators, bear, cats, coyotes and yes wolves along with a "management plan"(including politics) that coddle the exact animals that are killing these deer at an alarming rate and who's populations aren't even really known and are probably grossly underestimated. The decline in this herd started way before the Carlton Complex, like some are saying it started when the gloves were put on concerning how bear and cougar were handled and finally when they officially admitted wolves being in the valley which many of us already knew years prior. I,m not going back to the "good ole days" here, I,m going back to the 90,s when a lot of things were changing including loosing the Department of Game. I have logged thousands of boot miles in the Methow over my lifetime and when I tell you I have came across over 250 predator kills in the last 10 years and in the previous 50 years I probably came across a total of maybe 20(give our take) you may know why I think what I think. When folks start talking about cutting back on seasons, doing away with doe tags, getting rid of quality tags, draw only scenarios etc. for areas like the Methow, it really does make me sad because it really wasn't that long ago that this was a strong and thriving herd, as I,ve said, at one time it was the largest migrating Mule deer herd in the country. This spring will bring about a renewal of life, fawns will be born but not nearly as many that were born in the past just because there arnt as many deer, and predators will be born, bear cubs, cougar, yotes and wolf pups, there will be more of them born than in the past because there are more predators. The scales are slowly tipping. Folks are going to ask questions, especially hunters and especially those of who have histories and know certain areas where deer and elk populations are tanking and predator populations are exploding, the big question is why are they letting this happen? They will tell you "things are perfect", "predator numbers are right where we want them",  "the fires were the problem", "the deer were displaced" etc. etc. etc. Well, at least in the Methow how come we have been seeing less and less deer over the last 20 years or so, why are we seeing more and more predators over the same time period, If deer were displaced then where did they go, as far as the Methow goes the north part of the valley was fine during the Carlton complex, lots of food and healthy winter range but guess what deer numbers have been horrible there also and getting worse, but we did find over 25 cached kills this year in a couple areas! Did the deer go up and over into the Okanogan?, or jump over into the Chelan side? if so those areas should be to the brim with deer and folks should be seeing them left and right. There are reasons some are bitter with what is happening, especially when they have a history or live in an area that has had its herd decimated, Basically to some of us we still have memories but are saddened that future hunters will not see anything close to what we have enjoyed. Like I said in an earlier post there were days in this state that the herds were in great shape and there was no need to go out of state, heck I remember some of my grandparents friends coming in from Alaska, Idaho, Oregon and and Nebraska to hunt Mule deer in the Methow Valley. I remember seeing pictures of friends of my great grandparents coming from Alaska and Oregon to kill big bucks in the Methow. My Dad had a friend come from Wyoming, yes Wyoming back in the 60,s who purchased a non resident tag here and killed a huge 8 by 7 non typical, he loved the area so much that he moved there, he loved the big bodied, heavy horned deer that the Methow had. Point being, this state used to manage its herds with the goal of putting a "quality product" front and center for the sportsmen and women of this state, it was job 1. Now it is not a priority, and in fact in some cases we are being lied to(or at least not being told the truth), there has been deception, in some instances we have been looked down on or treated like we know nothing, everyone has there own stories and experiences and because of those is why you see some that are bitter. I have always been taught to look at both sides, respect others experiences and opinions they have formed because of their experiences, its not up to me or anyone really to judge anyone for their opinions. I have had relationships with many Game department folks from Alaska to Idaho and in Washington, I had a cousin that was "a big shot" with IDF&G back in the day(and that is all I will say about that ), oh ya, guess what he even came over to hunt the Methow!, anyway, but times are different and even they would tell you that.Priorities have changed.....

[bearpaw]

We have a retired WDFW employee here locally that used to feed the deer in NE WA. WDFW when it was the fish & game dept used to feed deer in the winter. He says feeding the deer a ways up on the mountain accomplished two things, it nourished the deer and it kept them off the highways. I wonder if they used to feed deer in the Methow too?

Wyoming still feeds their elk and they have the highest success rate of any state with general elk seasons.

http://www.backcountrychronicles.com/elk-harvest-comparison-western-states/

Wyoming claims an amazing overall 44.4% average hunter success rate (includes OTC tags), followed now by Utah at 26.4% (Utah is always late, so waiting on 2017 harvest data). Idaho dropped to third place followed by Montana.

[ribka]

I don’t agree with quite a bit wolfbait’s posts or links but without him there would be very very few posts addressing the predator problems in our state. The way politics works now is to get as much information ( propaganda) out to the public, whether it is true or not, to get public’s attention.  The antis use this tactic of publishing a lot of information and funding studies In favor of more predators ( wolf, bears, cougars) to very successfully sway public opinion even though most  of it is blatantly false and but it works. Look at the anti hunting group Conservation NW and how much false crap they post and they get a lot of donations from the gullible public. They could care less what you or I or the public think of them.  They and other anti hunting organizations will continue to do this and eventually get most of our seasons shut down. Based on posts on here it seems most want to work with these organizations to appear that we want logical, reasonable and understanding  to work with the fake conservation groups.

At least he wolfbait  is passionate and trying to stop it. Give him credit for that.

The real problem with the sort of things that Wolfbait likes to post is that it undermines our credibility as sportsmen and conservationists to be able to discuss real issues (like predators) and their impacts. The sort of propaganda that he distributes paints us in a light where we are very easily dismissed at all levels of important game management decisions.

While I do appreciate his enthusiasm, if it could be directed in better ways we could make some progress for fish and wildlife.

   Well said

[bigmacc]

We have a retired WDFW employee here locally that used to feed the deer in NE WA. WDFW when it was the fish & game dept used to feed deer in the winter. He says feeding the deer a ways up on the mountain accomplished two things, it nourished the deer and it kept them off the highways. I wonder if they used to feed deer in the Methow too?

Wyoming still feeds their elk and they have the highest success rate of any state with general elk seasons.

http://www.backcountrychronicles.com/elk-harvest-comparison-western-states/

Wyoming claims an amazing overall 44.4% average hunter success rate (includes OTC tags), followed now by Utah at 26.4% (Utah is always late, so waiting on 2017 harvest data). Idaho dropped to third place followed by Montana.

Well bearpaw,  they used to, I myself on many occasions during rough winters would stop by and pick up bags of feed and went where they told me to go but like you said, thats when they were the Game Department, we were told the same thing, it supplemented them through some extreme periods and kept them away from more populated areas. I hate to sound like a broken record but thats when that herd was at the top of the flagpole, a lot of pride was taken in that herd by the Game Dept. and it was watched, studied and coddled over the way some other animals are now days. I,ve told stories before how Game managers and Bios we knew back in the day would actually ask us questions about routes or staging areas we knew of, they would come to camp and talk for hours with my family. Many a time they would meet up with my dad and 2 or 3 of them would jump in the rig with my dad and be gone for hours and hours, one time they left at 6 in the A.M and were back at 8 P.M, my dad said they put on over 250 miles on some real bad roads from Winthrop to 30 mile, they were picking his and my grandpas brains about where to begin gating roads to protect deer during the migration. Back then you could talk to them and they genuinely would listen, they would ask questions and seek opinions, they valued input from folks that just may know some things that they didn't. We don't have a "Game Department" anymore unfortunately.

[NOCK NOCK]

In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity".  I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see .....once again, all due respect.

No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.

https://muledeer.org/conservation/

I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.

WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.

Ignorant guy here...…... .
@wolfbait If there are "very few deer", But "plenty of cat's & wolves", what are they eating?

[wolfbait]

In all due respect, to those in concern. Those of you who are young, those of you who have the money, those of you who have not seen the days when you COULD kill BIG bucks in this state with only the purchase of a resident tag and license. At one time you COULD kill huge bucks in this state, I have seen HUGE bucks killed in Chelan and Okanogan county, some were seen in person and some were seen in pictures, some of those pictures were 100 years old. There were"spots" in this state that would rival some of the states that you now "pay to play", I have helped "haul", "drag", "pack", and admire some HUGE bucks that were killed in THIS state, some at a frequency that you now have to pay a lot of money to just get "the opportunity".  I think what some are saying here is EXACTLY that. This state at one time had some of the healthiest mule deer herds in the country, they were there, they were healthy and accessible. You know what, its not even close anymore, maybe some of these folks that you are ridiculing, they just might see something that you don't see .....once again, all due respect.

No on disputes that mule deer populations have declined. They have in nearly all western states including Colorado. There are many factors, many known and some unknown. To blame the decline on a single factor is ignorant.

https://muledeer.org/conservation/

I have to say it's a bit past "declined". From everything we have seen since the "game Department" changed to WDFW there has been an agenda to ruin hunting. We see it more with the mule deer, take away hound hunting, throw in loads of doe tags, add wolves and then pretend there aren't any for several years until forced to confirm a pack, then pretend wolf recovery is just starting and slow walk confirmation of wolves. We watch the deer drop in numbers each year while WDFW pretend everything is fine, all the while knowing they are full of BS.

WDFW own most of the Golden Doe, and there are very few deer on it, plenty of cat's and wolves though. Use to be quite a number of people that hunted that stretch of country, not so anymore, given the facts, just what the heck does WDFW need more land if there's nothing left to hunt.

Ignorant guy here...…... .
@wolfbait If there are "very few deer", But "plenty of cat's & wolves", what are they eating?

Road Kill

http://bb.methowvalley.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3655 Here's three that have been hanging on the Golden Doe, they seem to wonder up through the back canyon and cross down to the river bottom about once a week. We have cross their trail most of the winter plowing our driveway. We hear, along with others the wolves howling in the river bottom and and Golden Doe quite often. Last week a friend heading to town early came up on a wolf lopping up the county road just past Harlderman's hole.

Last year we started out with 17 deer hanging with our broncs, by winters end there were no fawns and we figured 7 does left and a small buck. This year we have started with five pair, they hang by the house most of the day and eat with the broncs at night and morning when wolves are in close, we still have 5 does but they don't have any fawns on them anymore.

Like I said, not many deer but plenty of predators that are picking off what's left.

[NOCK NOCK]

So I'm confused, Very few deer, but there's roadkill?  Where did the roadkill come from?

[wolfbait]

So I'm confused, Very few deer, but there's roadkill?  Where did the roadkill come from?

Ignorant guy here...…... .

[/quote]

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