WDFW Buying More Wolf Habitat

[bigmacc]

and then there's colorado, growing like mad, developments everywhere, no wolves, record numbers of elk   

but deer herds continue to shrink  I've watched it there for almost a decade.  Development continues to chew up winter range and IT IS hitting the mule deer just like Wyoming and Idaho.  A herd cannot outgrow its winter range.  If it does mother nature resets it.  Fire and development that nukes winter range holding capacity IS the biggest elephant in the room.

  I also blame elk.  Since Yakima was mentioned, elk are taking over our MD winter range.  I spend a considerable amount of time out and about and I see no more bear and cats (visual sightings as well as scat and track) as I did a decade ago.  The exploding predator population is an over hyped think.  At least in my neck of the woods

Well said Karl, and like NOCK NOCK said "Every area is different, what could be the leading cause of herd decline in one area, may very well be at the bottom end of the spectrum in another" . In your area you are not seeing an increase in predators, in your neck of the woods you say it it over hyped. For those of us in "another area" (the Methow for instance) it is not over hyped, predators numbers are growing fast and have been for a couple decades now and as said the wolf packs are there and are expanding. Like you in your area, I too spend a lot of time in my neck of the woods and every year I,m seeing much more sign of the big 3(bear, cats and wolf). More sign, more kills and more sightings, every year we are recording more. There used to be elk in and out of the Methow but that was never an issue. As far as more people, yes there are more flickering lights in the valley than there used to be, that is true, but they are not "developments", heck, like some of us have noticed and mentioned, where people live is where the deer are ending up to try and avoid predators, we are seeing more and more deer in and around town than in the hills, I will try to dredge up a picture we took a couple years ago of about 20 deer in a friends yard including 5 deer on the guys deck and 1 nice 4 point laying on a couch that was on the deck! , GODS TRUTH!, seems there had been a cat spotted up in the cliffs above my friends place for about a month or so prior and the deer set up camp in his yard, on his deck and took over his patio furniture . A hunter killed the cat after a few weeks and low and behold the deer disappeared into the hills and my friend got his deck back. But also remember along the lines of what bearpaw said, predators may not be an issue in certain areas now but if left unmanaged they will spread, grow in numbers and eventually will become an issue....

[Karl Blanchard]

Bigmacc, I hear you and understand fully what your observations anand experiences have been.  I have also not seen anyone in this thread arguing the contrary    I agree with most everything you have said.   

Like jaeger said, I believe every animal has a place on the landscape.  A hunter who kills deer and elk but blindly hates an animal for killing deer and elk is a hypocrite.  Pot meet kettle.   In this Modern Age their numbers have to be managed so everything balances but to say that they just shouldn't be here I cannot and will not agree with that ever. 

I put the wolf forum on ignore for one reason.  That reason is wolfbait.  His blind hatred is annoying.  Someone mentioned just putting him on ignore but then I cant call out the fakenews when it infests the rest of the forum. The only reason that I even commented on this thread was because it was posted somewhere besides the wolf Forum and I was calling it out for the fake news that it is. 

I am not a big fan of wdfw but I'm not going to judge every single thing that they do as a negative or having devious intentions. To do so is narrow-minded and ignorant. Every single game agency in the country knows that the number one reason for lack of new hunter Recruitment and Hunter  retention is lack and loss of access.  Pretty sure wdfw isn't making a land acquisition just so wolves have a little more place to roam. Probably a little better odds but they're doing it to ensure that there's somebody out there still willing to pay the bills.

[bigmacc]

Bigmacc, I hear you and understand fully what your observations anand experiences have been.  I have also not seen anyone in this thread arguing the contrary    I agree with most everything you have said.   

Like jaeger said, I believe every animal has a place on the landscape.  A hunter who kills deer and elk but blindly hates an animal for killing deer and elk is a hypocrite.  Pot meet kettle.   In this Modern Age their numbers have to be managed so everything balances but to say that they just shouldn't be here I cannot and will not agree with that ever. 

I put the wolf forum on ignore for one reason.  That reason is wolfbait.  His blind hatred is annoying.  Someone mentioned just putting him on ignore but then I cant call out the fakenews when it infests the rest of the forum. The only reason that I even commented on this thread was because it was posted somewhere besides the wolf Forum and I was calling it out for the fake news that it is. 

I am not a big fan of wdfw but I'm not going to judge every single thing that they do as a negative or having devious intentions. To do so is narrow-minded and ignorant. Every single game agency in the country knows that the number one reason for lack of new hunter Recruitment and Hunter  retention is lack and loss of access.  Pretty sure wdfw isn't making a land acquisition just so wolves have a little more place to roam. Probably a little better odds but they're doing it to ensure that there's somebody out there still willing to pay the bills.

I understand

[blackveltbowhunter]

 

  I am a self proclaimed wolf/predator "hater". They are competition and I want to avoid competition. I also "hate" when someone is parked at the trailhead I am going in, or bugling in the same canyon. The list goes on. Its annoying, and at times frustrating. If I could remove all the competition I would. That is human nature.

But, My only real hate is for those folks who choose to use an animal/s as a political tool to accomplish their end goal regardless of which "side"  they are on. Hunters are caretakers as well, wiping out a species should not be the intent or is it likely in our best interest. What if our ancestors had left enough wolves on the landscape that we would not be having this discussion. They may not have ever been a blip on the radar. Science has shown animals are adaptable, These apex predators included, coddling them or protecting them further is unnecessary IMO they were given their chance to make a comeback, they were successful. Now its time for them to start competing as well. At the same time for me as a hunter singling them out as sole reasons of widespread decrease in ungulate numbers is equally silly and not logical either.

[bearpaw]

In NE WA we have cougar and wolf problems, lots of problems. I have a serious problem with a state that refuses to manage predators including wolves that have been delisted by the feds for several years now. In Idaho wolves are completely different acting since being hunted and herds are rebounding in many areas, that is the way it could and should be in NE WA.

I probably sound pretty critical of WDFW, it is all deserved. As a resident of NE WA they have failed me, I'm going to have to put up high fence just to protect my dogs. WDFW has failed my friends and neighbors who are trying to financially survive wolves killing their cattle. As a hound hunter and former trapper when younger who wanted to take his son trapping, WDFW has failed me. As a hunting guide who's livlihood depends on successful management WDFW has failed me. As a common citizen who enjoys taking an evening drive to see a few moose, WDFW has failed me. There's more but this should convey my general thoughts.

The tough part is that there are a lot of good people working for WDFW and they have nothing to do with the poor politically motivated decisions coming out of Olympia. To those good folks please accept my apology for generalizing my thoughts on WDFW management by simply saying WDFW. When you see my frequent rants about WDFW please trust that my dissatisfaction is with upper management. 

[Skyvalhunter]

Which is exactly why the WDFW needs to be held accountable. They do not seem to have the sportsmen's best interests at heart.

[wolfbait]

In NE WA we have cougar and wolf problems, lots of problems. I have a serious problem with a state that refuses to manage predators including wolves that have been delisted by the feds for several years now. In Idaho wolves are completely different acting since being hunted and herds are rebounding in many areas, that is the way it could and should be in NE WA.

I probably sound pretty critical of WDFW, it is all deserved. As a resident of NE WA they have failed me, I'm going to have to put up high fence just to protect my dogs. WDFW has failed my friends and neighbors who are trying to financially survive wolves killing their cattle. As a hound hunter and former trapper when younger who wanted to take his son trapping, WDFW has failed me. As a hunting guide who's livlihood depends on successful management WDFW has failed me. As a common citizen who enjoys taking an evening drive to see a few moose, WDFW has failed me. There's more but this should convey my general thoughts.

The tough part is that there are a lot of good people working for WDFW and they have nothing to do with the poor politically motivated decisions coming out of Olympia. To those good folks please accept my apology for generalizing my thoughts on WDFW management by simply saying WDFW. When you see my frequent rants about WDFW please trust that my dissatisfaction is with upper management. 

Well said, Bearpaw!

I know for a fact that many in WDFW feel the same as we do about the wolves etc., agenda driven WDFW at the top and their "new age" biologist are the problem.

[Tbar]

In NE WA we have cougar and wolf problems, lots of problems. I have a serious problem with a state that refuses to manage predators including wolves that have been delisted by the feds for several years now. In Idaho wolves are completely different acting since being hunted and herds are rebounding in many areas, that is the way it could and should be in NE WA.

I probably sound pretty critical of WDFW, it is all deserved. As a resident of NE WA they have failed me, I'm going to have to put up high fence just to protect my dogs. WDFW has failed my friends and neighbors who are trying to financially survive wolves killing their cattle. As a hound hunter and former trapper when younger who wanted to take his son trapping, WDFW has failed me. As a hunting guide who's livlihood depends on successful management WDFW has failed me. As a common citizen who enjoys taking an evening drive to see a few moose, WDFW has failed me. There's more but this should convey my general thoughts.

The tough part is that there are a lot of good people working for WDFW and they have nothing to do with the poor politically motivated decisions coming out of Olympia. To those good folks please accept my apology for generalizing my thoughts on WDFW management by simply saying WDFW. When you see my frequent rants about WDFW please trust that my dissatisfaction is with upper management. 

Well said, Bearpaw!

I know for a fact that many in WDFW feel the same as we do about the wolves etc., agenda driven WDFW at the top and their "new age" biologist are the problem.

It is odd that the wolf Bio WDFW started out with many years ago is now the wolf lead for CNW. Do you think he infiltrated their organization? 

Who is that?

[Magnum_Willys]

Wolf numbers are being “managed” in NE Washington. How’s that working?  In Idaho where elk numbers are coming up wolves are being trapped, hunted by helicopter and eliminated by locals through all legal and other means possible.   If you aren’t privy to the local’s efforts in Idaho you may have a distorted view of natures harmony.   

[Tbar]

In NE WA we have cougar and wolf problems, lots of problems. I have a serious problem with a state that refuses to manage predators including wolves that have been delisted by the feds for several years now. In Idaho wolves are completely different acting since being hunted and herds are rebounding in many areas, that is the way it could and should be in NE WA.

I probably sound pretty critical of WDFW, it is all deserved. As a resident of NE WA they have failed me, I'm going to have to put up high fence just to protect my dogs. WDFW has failed my friends and neighbors who are trying to financially survive wolves killing their cattle. As a hound hunter and former trapper when younger who wanted to take his son trapping, WDFW has failed me. As a hunting guide who's livlihood depends on successful management WDFW has failed me. As a common citizen who enjoys taking an evening drive to see a few moose, WDFW has failed me. There's more but this should convey my general thoughts.

The tough part is that there are a lot of good people working for WDFW and they have nothing to do with the poor politically motivated decisions coming out of Olympia. To those good folks please accept my apology for generalizing my thoughts on WDFW management by simply saying WDFW. When you see my frequent rants about WDFW please trust that my dissatisfaction is with upper management. 

Well said, Bearpaw!

I know for a fact that many in WDFW feel the same as we do about the wolves etc., agenda driven WDFW at the top and their "new age" biologist are the problem.

It is odd that the wolf Bio WDFW started out with many years ago is now the wolf lead for CNW. Do you think he infiltrated their organization? 

Who is that?

This person. When the Wedge pack was attempted to be removed he was under the employe of WDFW.

https://www.conservationnw.org/meet-our-staff/jay-shepherd/

Looks like he was an assistant bio not the "wolf" bio.  That said I don't know him or his stance on wolves or predator management but refuse to blame him for something without merit.  Is he a logical/ practical thinker who is an asset to have at cnw? I  don't know.  Many state employees are very subject to process.

[boneaddict]

In NE WA we have cougar and wolf problems, lots of problems. I have a serious problem with a state that refuses to manage predators including wolves that have been delisted by the feds for several years now. In Idaho wolves are completely different acting since being hunted and herds are rebounding in many areas, that is the way it could and should be in NE WA.

I probably sound pretty critical of WDFW, it is all deserved. As a resident of NE WA they have failed me, I'm going to have to put up high fence just to protect my dogs. WDFW has failed my friends and neighbors who are trying to financially survive wolves killing their cattle. As a hound hunter and former trapper when younger who wanted to take his son trapping, WDFW has failed me. As a hunting guide who's livlihood depends on successful management WDFW has failed me. As a common citizen who enjoys taking an evening drive to see a few moose, WDFW has failed me. There's more but this should convey my general thoughts.

The tough part is that there are a lot of good people working for WDFW and they have nothing to do with the poor politically motivated decisions coming out of Olympia. To those good folks please accept my apology for generalizing my thoughts on WDFW management by simply saying WDFW. When you see my frequent rants about WDFW please trust that my dissatisfaction is with upper management. 

💥Boom.  Nice

[bigmacc]

In NE WA we have cougar and wolf problems, lots of problems. I have a serious problem with a state that refuses to manage predators including wolves that have been delisted by the feds for several years now. In Idaho wolves are completely different acting since being hunted and herds are rebounding in many areas, that is the way it could and should be in NE WA.

I probably sound pretty critical of WDFW, it is all deserved. As a resident of NE WA they have failed me, I'm going to have to put up high fence just to protect my dogs. WDFW has failed my friends and neighbors who are trying to financially survive wolves killing their cattle. As a hound hunter and former trapper when younger who wanted to take his son trapping, WDFW has failed me. As a hunting guide who's livlihood depends on successful management WDFW has failed me. As a common citizen who enjoys taking an evening drive to see a few moose, WDFW has failed me. There's more but this should convey my general thoughts.

The tough part is that there are a lot of good people working for WDFW and they have nothing to do with the poor politically motivated decisions coming out of Olympia. To those good folks please accept my apology for generalizing my thoughts on WDFW management by simply saying WDFW. When you see my frequent rants about WDFW please trust that my dissatisfaction is with upper management. 

  DILLY DILLY

[idaho guy]

One thing that I will add is the wolf thing is a new developement that is easy to point at.

Wildfires, hard winters and habitat loss have been happening for years.  People look at the current low numbers and see the new variable wolves or the change in predator management from using dogs and bait to not being allowed to use those tools.

Low numbers and change in predators and management techniques.  The straw that broke the camels back and the most recent change.

I think changes to need to be made in all areas affecting the herd numbers there is no "one fix" that will get the numbers back up.

I know it sounds good to say that and a guy wants to feel that it's all the factors causing the reduction in numbers but again I have to use Idaho as a point to consider. Idaho is growing fast too, yet there are near record numbers of elk in areas with all the access and growth. Yet in the wilderness where green groups are preventing IDFG from taking helicopters and preventing hired contractors from reducing wolf numbers, the elk are at or near historic lows. Before wolves those wilderness areas were the best elk areas in idaho.

  hard to argue with real life facts! In Idaho wolves impact is obvious to anyone willing too look or better yet see it in person. Wolves are the major factor in elk declines but I agree definitely not the only one. It’s just the really big one. Last two elk I have gotten have been the easiest ever in my life because the elk are living right next to town. Maybe I should be happy but it bothers me because elk don’t belong there. Some of the best remote habitat I used to hunt are now elk ghost towns. I finally went back to a deep spot this year after some trappers I know really got after it and the elk are coming back! Unfortunately the best wilderness areas will never be effectively trapped.

[bigmacc]

One thing that I will add is the wolf thing is a new developement that is easy to point at.

Wildfires, hard winters and habitat loss have been happening for years.  People look at the current low numbers and see the new variable wolves or the change in predator management from using dogs and bait to not being allowed to use those tools.

Low numbers and change in predators and management techniques.  The straw that broke the camels back and the most recent change.

I think changes to need to be made in all areas affecting the herd numbers there is no "one fix" that will get the numbers back up.

I know it sounds good to say that and a guy wants to feel that it's all the factors causing the reduction in numbers but again I have to use Idaho as a point to consider. Idaho is growing fast too, yet there are near record numbers of elk in areas with all the access and growth. Yet in the wilderness where green groups are preventing IDFG from taking helicopters and preventing hired contractors from reducing wolf numbers, the elk are at or near historic lows. Before wolves those wilderness areas were the best elk areas in idaho.

  hard to argue with real life facts! In Idaho wolves impact is obvious to anyone willing too look or better yet see it in person. Wolves are the major factor in elk declines but I agree definitely not the only one. It’s just the really big one. Last two elk I have gotten have been the easiest ever in my life because the elk are living right next to town. Maybe I should be happy but it bothers me because elk don’t belong there. Some of the best remote habitat I used to hunt are now elk ghost towns. I finally went back to a deep spot this year after some trappers I know really got after it and the elk are coming back! Unfortunately the best wilderness areas will never be effectively trapped.

I totally agree, its been ongoing in the Methow also over the last 20-25 years, and that is whats left of the local population are more and more hanging out closer to civilization. It used to be that the Methow was a bit unique(for a lack of a better word) because as said it had the largest migrating herd in the country along with a healthy and thriving local population, the local population was on the valley floor as well as in the hills just above the floor. I remember just 30 or so years ago driving(not even getting out of the rig) around some of the hills above Winthrop, Twisp and Carlton and seeing hundreds of deer on a nice August evening, you are lucky to see a handful now. With the growing predator issues and a spreading and growing wolf population there are not nearly as many deer period and for the most part, what is left of the local herd now clings to yards, corrals and driveways to survive. Where we found all the cougar kills this last season was 3-5 miles from a road and as I said, not a deer to be found over 2 days of hunting it, it was an area that over the last 50 years our group has killed over 200 deer in, over the last 20 years it has been declining each year seeing less and less, this year 0, not even a doe, it is about a 5-6 square mile area that 5 of us spread out in, not 1 deer, not 1. Fact is we seen more deer this last season in yards and in town than we seen putting on miles in the hills, I agree with Idaho guy, I too would rather be seeing these animals where they belong, most but not all of the places deer should be are more and more becoming void of deer. With the ways the seasons have been for awhile now, we are not hunting migrating deer(unless a freak weather hits early) we are hunting local to mid level deer which like the migrating herd are being slammed by predators and thats why we are seeing the "locals" cling to civilization more and more for safety......