WDFW Buying More Wolf Habitat

[jackelope]

I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.

I agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient  way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.

I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.

From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.

I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? 

I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.

WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. 

In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. 

The point that I, and I believe a few others are trying to make, is that several factors all add up to create major issues. Some part wolves...some part humans moving in, some part habitat loss. 
Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc.

[bigmacc]

So I'm confused, Very few deer, but there's roadkill?  Where did the roadkill come from?

Ignorant guy here...…... .

No Comment........

  at least you got it.

I'm not a wolf lover, or hater, but i do like to base my thoughts on fact, not fiction.

To me its really simple, Predators eat prey.(fact) Both species will fluctuate populations depending on how the other is doing.(fact) The Methow deer herd has been historically low for several years now(fact) so why the drastic increase in predators(wolf/lion)? 
To blame all of, or the majority of, the deer herds reduction on wolf/cat predation is fiction.

For NOCK NOCK

I will chime in as far as the Methow goes, you are right about the herd "being historically low for several years now". What you may be missing is that it has been low for periods at a time through history and has always bounced back. Historically this herd has been darn near bullet proof. Winters of 68-69, winters of 36-37, winters of 18-19, horrible winters in the  70,s and 90,s and 10 year draughts, throw in some fires too going back 100 years if you like. Thousands and thousands of deer perished, especially 68-69 where its estimated anywhere from 5-9 thousand died. I told stories in another thread of what my dad and I witnessed during that winter. The herd bounced back within 3 to 6 years.  In its day, at its peak it fluctuated anywhere from 30-40 thousand head(50,s and 60,s), the herd held fairly stable numbers through the 70,s ,80,s and 90,s with some minor ups and downs. This herd has been declining for 20-25 years with no "bouncing back", is it just a coincidence that is roughly when predator numbers began going through the roof? you tell me. it continues to fall, its roughly half the size of its historic numbers and continues to plummet.This herd (was at one time) THE largest migrating herd in the country, bar none. Predators are pounding this herd PERIOD and bouncing back is not happening until that issue is addressed. With all do respect, this once thriving herd, the largest in the country has been devastated by ALL predators including a new one(wolf) that has been roaming this valley for at least 25 years (that I myself know of). Now throw in exploding cougar and bear populations, well somethings gonna give, this herd is still "alive" but barely.....Eventually the predators will be gone or reduced, some will starve but only when this herds been reduced to the point that makes your scenario possible, "both species will fluctuate depending on how the others doing", which for me, concerning this particular herd is a very sad way to look at things, something could and should be done through management concerning predators in this state.....sorry, rant over. and yes, they have heard from me.

With all due respect, Your not getting the point. I am all for better predator management, but refuse to put all the blame on predators for the declining herds.

Mule deer and predators have coexisted for longer than your above stated times. Why are the predators just now decimating the herds?

Human predator numbers have also "exploded" in the valley. Do you believe they have an effect on deer herd health?
Do you believe hard winters kill deer?
Do you believe fires kill deer?
Is it just a coincidence  that herds started declining at the same time frame humans started increasing?

Or, is it all to blame on the wolves and cats?

Have you killed any of these massive amounts of predators? Cat? Bear? Reading your posts you say you have seen lots of them...……. kill some...... help the deer out.

I am not trying to argue, or call you out, as I am positive you are a stand up guy, but just tired of seeing all the blame put on predators as the ONLY reason herds are declining. (FICTION)
[/quote]


NOCK NOCK
I am getting your point but you may not have read all my other posts and therefor may be misunderstanding mine. I am responding to you because you may be confusing me with others. Nowhere have I said or will I ever say that predators are the ONLY reason the Methow herd is being decimated, I have said there are many reasons this herd is suffering but IMHO at the top of the list is growing predator numbers and the addition and growing population of the wolf, a new apex predator who we all know are amazing killers. Second on that list would be MIS-MANAGEMENT of BOTH the predators and the deer herd. Fires , winters, etc. are all playing roles also. As I said, tough winters, fires and draughts have been going on since the beginning of time in the Methow. I can only go back to 1917 and tell you from family journals, talks with my dad and great-grandparents and my own personal experiences going back to the 1950,s that predators have never been an issue until the last 20 or so years, in fact seeing a cougar or bear was such a rarity to see in the Methow when I was young that when you did run into one it was neat to see. Once again I said in another post that it was a rarity to find predator kills(cached), just this last year we found dozens, all cougar kills, we seen the cat but couldn't get a clean shot, we told some other fellas that had tags and were experienced cat hunters and they went in and killed it. I will say it again and I stand by this and I agree with bearpaw, Mother Nature will throw haymakers at this herd for the rest of time as she has from the beginning, whats different in the last 20 years is booming predator populations and these populations which are growing by the year are PREVENTING this herd from recovering or bouncing back like I said in the other post. Concerning your question on my killing predators, yes, I myself have probably killed over 100 coyotes in my lifetime in the Methow, as far as bear, we have killed around 10 over the years and 0 cougars. Like I said, back in the day it was so rare to see a cat or bear they were just neat to see, I can count on one hand the number of cats Ive seen UP UNTIL about 20 years ago, now in the last 20 years I would need many more hands. I also said in a previous post that we are all studying up on cougar hunting for next year, none of us have ever hunted them, there was just never a need to in the past and since the gloves were put on concerning controlling these things, now there is. Your other question was did I think hard winters kill deer, you will need to read my other posts about some of the tough winters I,ve witnessed(the worst being 68-69), I can't keep re-writing stuff, my finger gets tired on this keyboard. Sorry some of this stuff is repetition, just explaining myself.

[bearpaw]

Again...just another something that adds to the issues wildlife has staying alive. It's not just predators.

Do you really think I'm that shallow.  I say that in a friendly manner, don't take it as snapping back at you.

Of course there are a ton of factors that impact herds, including all those fenced orchards and shooting depredating wildlife in those orchards. We need to find better answers to a lot of issues. But simple math dictates that over populated predators prevent naturally depleted herds (hard winters and big fires) from easily recovering. Every one of you needs to stop and think about this, the Methow herds took another big dive after the hard winter and big fires. It's very likely the over populated predators that will slow these herds from recovering.

Government studies have shown each wolf eats about 17 elk or 42 deer per year. Government studies have shown each cougar eats 25 to 50 deer per year. I'm not a math wiz but I can easily figure how much impact 20 or 30 wolves and 250 to 500 cougar can have on a local deer herd even if they are only eating half as many deer because they are having as much trouble finding something to eat as hunters are having.

(those were just quick estimates of predator numbers but they are probably pretty close)

I say all this in a friendly manner! 

[bearpaw]

I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.

I agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient  way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.

I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.

From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.

I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? 

I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.

WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. 

In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. 

The point that I, and I believe a few others are trying to make, is that several factors all add up to create major issues. Some part wolves...some part humans moving in, some part habitat loss. 
Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc.

No predators in Yakima?

How about cougars and coyotes, and wait till the wolves expand more into yakima. It's the additional predation that makes the biggest impact!

[jackelope]

I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.

I agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient  way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.

I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.

From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.

I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? 

I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.

WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. 

In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. 

The point that I, and I believe a few others are trying to make, is that several factors all add up to create major issues. Some part wolves...some part humans moving in, some part habitat loss. 
Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc.

No predators in Yakima?

How about cougars and coyotes, and wait till the wolves expand more into yakima. It's the additional predation that makes the biggest impact!

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said...and I quote with a copy and paste.... "Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc."

[bearpaw]

To add to the human/wildlife interface not always being all that beneficial for wildlife...crop damage by wildlife (and the lack of tolerance for such damage by producers) is a major driver of lower population objectives across the Western US.  Once the State sets a lower objective, they use very aggressive hunts to slaughter the elk and bring populations down to levels that are more acceptable to producers.  As an example, take a look at whats being proposed across southern Idaho this year...

In areas where tolerance is higher or the damage is not that costly - the ag interface can be a very productive thing for wildlife...great food source!

I completely agree with this comment, I mentioned that factor in one of my posts. 

[bearpaw]

I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.

I agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient  way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.

I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.

From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.

I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? 

I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.

WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. 

In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. 

The point that I, and I believe a few others are trying to make, is that several factors all add up to create major issues. Some part wolves...some part humans moving in, some part habitat loss. 
Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc.

No predators in Yakima?

How about cougars and coyotes, and wait till the wolves expand more into yakima. It's the additional predation that makes the biggest impact!

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said...and I quote with a copy and paste.... "Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc."

I read your post exactly, I simply commented that there are other predators impacting those herds and when wolves arrive the impact will be even worse. Again it's hard to convey this but I am saying all this in a friendly manner, not trying to ruffle your feathers or put words in your mouth and I'm sorry if you took it that way. 

[bearpaw]

I'm going to inject another little comment here, if WDFW would simply start managing cougars and wolves to prevent localized predator over populations most of this elk and deer problem would go away. Idaho has elk herds in the accessible areas of Idaho at or near record levels, if the greeners would let Idaho manage wolves in the wilderness areas those herds would also begin recover.

[bigmacc]

Again...just another something that adds to the issues wildlife has staying alive. It's not just predators.

Do you really think I'm that shallow.  I say that in a friendly manner, don't take it as snapping back at you.

Of course there are a ton of factors that impact herds, including all those fenced orchards and shooting depredating wildlife in those orchards. We need to find better answers to a lot of issues. But simple math dictates that over populated predators prevent naturally depleted herds (hard winters and big fires) from easily recovering. Every one of you needs to stop and think about this, the Methow herds took another big dive after the hard winter and big fires. It's very likely the over populated predators that will slow these herds from recovering.

Government studies have shown each wolf eats about 17 elk or 42 deer per year. Government studies have shown each cougar eats 25 to 50 deer per year. I'm not a math wiz but I can easily figure how much impact 20 or 30 wolves and 250 to 500 cougar can have on a local deer herd even if they are only eating half as many deer because they are having as much trouble finding something to eat as hunters are having.

(those were just quick estimates of predator numbers but they are probably pretty close)

I say all this in a friendly manner! 

I 100% agree.

[bigmacc]

I'm going to inject another little comment here, if WDFW would simply start managing cougars and wolves to prevent localized predator over populations most of this elk and deer problem would go away. Idaho has elk herds in the accessible areas of Idaho at or near record levels, if the greeners would let Idaho manage wolves in the wilderness areas those herds would also begin recover.

I again 100% agree.

[bearpaw]

I'm going to inject another little comment here, if WDFW would simply start managing cougars and wolves to prevent localized predator over populations most of this elk and deer problem would go away. Idaho has elk herds in the accessible areas of Idaho at or near record levels, if the greeners would let Idaho manage wolves in the wilderness areas those herds would also begin recover.

That reinforces my previous point that it's not the humans necessarily causing herd declines, there are no cities or orchards in the Selway or Frank wilderness, it's the predators that are preventing those herds from recovering from harsh winters. I rest my case! 

[jackelope]

I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.

I agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient  way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.

I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.

From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.

I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? 

I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.

WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. 

In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. 

The point that I, and I believe a few others are trying to make, is that several factors all add up to create major issues. Some part wolves...some part humans moving in, some part habitat loss. 
Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc.

No predators in Yakima?

How about cougars and coyotes, and wait till the wolves expand more into yakima. It's the additional predation that makes the biggest impact!

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said...and I quote with a copy and paste.... "Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc."

I read your post exactly, I simply commented that there are other predators impacting those herds and when wolves arrive the impact will be even worse. Again it's hard to convey this but I am saying all this in a friendly manner, not trying to ruffle your feathers or put words in your mouth and I'm sorry if you took it that way. 

Yeah I get it...it's all good. I was just trying to show an example to show that there are other significant factors and the issues vary greatly from area to area....not using all predators as an example...just wolves...in Yakima...right now. I understand what the future holds and all that.
Just talking about today.

[bearpaw]

I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.

I agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient  way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.

I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.

From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.

I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? 

I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.

WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. 

In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. 

The point that I, and I believe a few others are trying to make, is that several factors all add up to create major issues. Some part wolves...some part humans moving in, some part habitat loss. 
Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc.

No predators in Yakima?

How about cougars and coyotes, and wait till the wolves expand more into yakima. It's the additional predation that makes the biggest impact!

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said...and I quote with a copy and paste.... "Wolves are an issue in NE WA or in the Methow valley, but wolves are not having a huge impact on the deer or elk in Yakima for example. There may be a few wolves running around Yakima, but not enough to put a major dent in the deer population there. Other things are. I believe it was hair loss in the past. Tribal hunting, etc."

I read your post exactly, I simply commented that there are other predators impacting those herds and when wolves arrive the impact will be even worse. Again it's hard to convey this but I am saying all this in a friendly manner, not trying to ruffle your feathers or put words in your mouth and I'm sorry if you took it that way. 

Yeah I get it...it's all good. I was just trying to show an example to show that there are other significant factors and the issues vary greatly from area to area....not using all predators as an example...just wolves...in Yakima...right now. I understand what the future holds and all that.
Just talking about today.

It's too easy to not easily express our thoughts on the internet and often people argue almost identical points but from slightly different angles, I know you know what i mean. LOL

[Rainier10]

One thing that I will add is the wolf thing is a new developement that is easy to point at.

Wildfires, hard winters and habitat loss have been happening for years.  People look at the current low numbers and see the new variable wolves or the change in predator management from using dogs and bait to not being allowed to use those tools.

Low numbers and change in predators and management techniques.  The straw that broke the camels back and the most recent change.

I think changes to need to be made in all areas affecting the herd numbers there is no "one fix" that will get the numbers back up.

[NOCK NOCK]

I agree that most everyone replying about this/these issues, are basically on the same page, and want better for our ungulate herds.

What I don't get is how a lot of folks are saying, "_________" is THE reason, or "the Main reason" the herds are declining. Unless you are God, or the wholly grail of Biologists..(even that's debatable ), its all based on speculation and emotion.

  If a poll was created answers will most likely be all over the board. I will do one just to see where it goes.

Every area is different, as well as the critters that inhabit them. What could be the leading cause of herd decline in one area, may very well be at the bottom end of the spectrum in another.

@bigmacc , Its all good  I'm just trying to state my opinion that wolves, cats, bears, humans, are not the end all, its a multitude of issues.  And yes, my finger gets tired too.....Us one finger typers gotta stick together.