WDFW Buying More Wolf Habitat

[bearpaw]

It's amazing that some people believe more human development and loss of habitat is either a non-issue or is a benefit to wildlife.  A few hundred wolves inhabit this state...and 7+ million humans...but yea, wolves are definitely the biggest threat.  Lets develop a whole bunch more land so we can make safe places for the deer in towns. 

Hunting and Conservation of wildlife is not a Republican or Democrat issue...anybody who tries to intimidate or ridicule others on a party line basis is clueless and out of touch with whats going on.  There are good elected leaders in both parties working to do good things for hunters and wildlife...and there are really bad, dumb elected leaders in both parties doing things that undermine hunting.

Again misinformation and twisting what's been said. Not surprised, I knew my post would bring out certain persons. 

I said deer and elk can thrive alongside humans and I showed the proof. The biggest reason WA herds are declining is because hard winters take a big toll on herds, at that point the many predators have a larger impact on the herds and it becomes hard for those herds to recover. Colorado has the same exploding human population as WA yet has record elk herds, but no wolves, yet!

[blackveltbowhunter]

Some of you people have been hand fed to much liberal propaganda and you believe it. You can't blame dieing herds all on the impacts of humans! In fact the contrary is far more truthful.

There's some very important history that most people keep forgetting or never learned. Lewis and Clark nearly starved to death crossing the Rocky Mountain west (it's all documented) until they got to the Columbia River system and found abundant food, they barely survived the Rocky Mountain region. The only reason there has been abundant deer and elk populations in the mountains is because predators were hunted hard for decades and their numbers brought down to a point where deer, elk, and eventually even moose could flourish.

Ungulate herds have actually flourished with the settlement of the far west. The first two Hudson Bay trading posts in the west were first near Astoria and second at Kettle Falls. There are records of hundreds of wolf hides being traded by the Indian tribes in the early 1800's. My grandfathers both homesteaded here in the very early 1900's, as a little boy my father and grandfather traded with the Indians for salmon at Kettle Falls. My father watched loggers clear land along the Columbia River while Coulee Dam was being built. My dad hunted with Cougar Sam one of the famed cougar bounty hunters during the middle of the 1900's. It was not until after the wolves were brought under control and then cougar were brought under control that ungulate herds really flourished. The 1960's and 1970's were the peak.

Obviously there's a reason there was no moose season at all until near the end of the 1900's, there were almost no moose before that time! Moose have only flourished after predators were controlled and logging operations created huge amounts of perfect habitat.

For those who seem a little foggy on this and especially anyone who has never read any of it, please look up the Lewis and Clark records and the Hudson Bay records!

Elk and deer literally flourish right in the middle of human development! Colorado has the largest elk herd in the world and the epicenter is right in downtown Estes park Colorado! Within the city limits of our nations capitol WA DC there's outstanding deer numbers and hunting opportunities! DON'T miss the Omaha Nebraska buck or the Salt Lake City buck either. Right here in NE WA since the predators have taken over I can probably show you more deer quicker in the city of Colville than in the country.

Most of us want to hunt in a country setting, but the rubbish that human development is causing the loss of deer and elk herds is simply green propaganda. Yes people need to tie up dogs, yes we lose deer on highways, yes i hate to see winter range developed, but predators have prevented herds from recovering from hard winters and that's why herds are not what they used to be!

LOL..... Estes park. Lets not forget that there is no HUNTING impact in many of those places either

You are absolutely correct. I didn't say there was hunting, I was pointing out that elk and other wildlife can flourish alongside humans. Additionally, if you watch those videos you won't see too many cougar or wolves roaming, another reason the elk and deer are flourishing right alongside humans.

Only if tolerated. That was my point. Open a general season in estes and see how long it lasts. Or put that herd adjacent to a bunch of farmers crops and see if it goes unnoticed and if anyone is crying about damage. And thats before crossing the fence about who gets the say so on what happens with the animals. Estes and similar areas are unique in that most folks see eye to eye on mangement. Not sure I want anymore growth where those types of folks are seeing eye to eye on how to manage ungulate herds. Not beneficial for me at all.

[idahohuntr]

It's amazing that some people believe more human development and loss of habitat is either a non-issue or is a benefit to wildlife.  A few hundred wolves inhabit this state...and 7+ million humans...but yea, wolves are definitely the biggest threat.  Lets develop a whole bunch more land so we can make safe places for the deer in towns. 

Hunting and Conservation of wildlife is not a Republican or Democrat issue...anybody who tries to intimidate or ridicule others on a party line basis is clueless and out of touch with whats going on.  There are good elected leaders in both parties working to do good things for hunters and wildlife...and there are really bad, dumb elected leaders in both parties doing things that undermine hunting.

Again misinformation and twisting what's been said. Not surprised, I knew my post would bring out certain persons. 

I said deer and elk can thrive alongside humans and I showed the proof. The biggest reason WA herds are declining is because hard winters take a big toll on herds, at that point the many predators have a larger impact on the herds and it becomes hard for those herds to recover. Colorado has the same exploding human population as WA yet has record elk herds, but no wolves, yet!

Nothing has been twisted.  Re-read all the posts in this thread 

Your last line is hilarious...it's like you are suggesting the only difference between Colorado and Washington is wolves.   

[bearpaw]

Some of you people have been hand fed to much liberal propaganda and you believe it. You can't blame dieing herds all on the impacts of humans! In fact the contrary is far more truthful.

There's some very important history that most people keep forgetting or never learned. Lewis and Clark nearly starved to death crossing the Rocky Mountain west (it's all documented) until they got to the Columbia River system and found abundant food, they barely survived the Rocky Mountain region. The only reason there has been abundant deer and elk populations in the mountains is because predators were hunted hard for decades and their numbers brought down to a point where deer, elk, and eventually even moose could flourish.

Ungulate herds have actually flourished with the settlement of the far west. The first two Hudson Bay trading posts in the west were first near Astoria and second at Kettle Falls. There are records of hundreds of wolf hides being traded by the Indian tribes in the early 1800's. My grandfathers both homesteaded here in the very early 1900's, as a little boy my father and grandfather traded with the Indians for salmon at Kettle Falls. My father watched loggers clear land along the Columbia River while Coulee Dam was being built. My dad hunted with Cougar Sam one of the famed cougar bounty hunters during the middle of the 1900's. It was not until after the wolves were brought under control and then cougar were brought under control that ungulate herds really flourished. The 1960's and 1970's were the peak.

Obviously there's a reason there was no moose season at all until near the end of the 1900's, there were almost no moose before that time! Moose have only flourished after predators were controlled and logging operations created huge amounts of perfect habitat.

For those who seem a little foggy on this and especially anyone who has never read any of it, please look up the Lewis and Clark records and the Hudson Bay records!

Elk and deer literally flourish right in the middle of human development! Colorado has the largest elk herd in the world and the epicenter is right in downtown Estes park Colorado! Within the city limits of our nations capitol WA DC there's outstanding deer numbers and hunting opportunities! DON'T miss the Omaha Nebraska buck or the Salt Lake City buck either. Right here in NE WA since the predators have taken over I can probably show you more deer quicker in the city of Colville than in the country.

Most of us want to hunt in a country setting, but the rubbish that human development is causing the loss of deer and elk herds is simply green propaganda. Yes people need to tie up dogs, yes we lose deer on highways, yes i hate to see winter range developed, but predators have prevented herds from recovering from hard winters and that's why herds are not what they used to be!

LOL..... Estes park. Lets not forget that there is no HUNTING impact in many of those places either

You are absolutely correct. I didn't say there was hunting, I was pointing out that elk and other wildlife can flourish alongside humans. Additionally, if you watch those videos you won't see too many cougar or wolves roaming, another reason the elk and deer are flourishing right alongside humans.

Only if tolerated. That was my point. Open a general season in estes and see how long it lasts. Or put that herd adjacent to a bunch of farmers crops and see if it goes unnoticed and if anyone is crying about damage. And thats before crossing the fence about who gets the say so on what happens with the animals. Estes and similar areas are unique in that most folks see eye to eye on mangement. Not sure I want anymore growth where those types of folks are seeing eye to eye on how to manage ungulate herds. Not beneficial for me at all.

Some people have insinuated that human development causes deer and elk to die off, that they can't survive along side humans. I proved that is absolutely false!

I think you are confusing hunting in that issue. No matter where we hunt animals will flee when the shooting starts, that's completely different issue. It's not the human presence that kills animals, they can survive right alongside humans.

Of course I'm like most everyone, I don't want to see human developments everywhere, we need wild places, but I expect people to get the facts straight!

[bearpaw]

It's amazing that some people believe more human development and loss of habitat is either a non-issue or is a benefit to wildlife.  A few hundred wolves inhabit this state...and 7+ million humans...but yea, wolves are definitely the biggest threat.  Lets develop a whole bunch more land so we can make safe places for the deer in towns. 

Hunting and Conservation of wildlife is not a Republican or Democrat issue...anybody who tries to intimidate or ridicule others on a party line basis is clueless and out of touch with whats going on.  There are good elected leaders in both parties working to do good things for hunters and wildlife...and there are really bad, dumb elected leaders in both parties doing things that undermine hunting.

Again misinformation and twisting what's been said. Not surprised, I knew my post would bring out certain persons. 

I said deer and elk can thrive alongside humans and I showed the proof. The biggest reason WA herds are declining is because hard winters take a big toll on herds, at that point the many predators have a larger impact on the herds and it becomes hard for those herds to recover. Colorado has the same exploding human population as WA yet has record elk herds, but no wolves, yet!

Nothing has been twisted.  Re-read all the posts in this thread 

Your last line is hilarious...it's like you are suggesting the only difference between Colorado and Washington is wolves.   

and we have WDFW, nuff said...

[NOCK NOCK]

I spend a ton of time in another mule deer area. I only know of 1 wolf spotted there, one time. I run 12 cams up there for 8-9months of the year. This past year, literally thousands of videos and not 1 Cougar on camera, or spotted. The human population of homes has not increased all that much there in the last 20 years...….So why the big decline in herd size?

Deer are not safe in towns either. I have seen 8 deer killed by autos within city limits this year, 1 killed by dogs. On the contrary I drive Wenatchee to Leavenworth 4 trips a day, and have yet to see a single deer roadkill between 5am-3pm.

Again, not saying Predators are the sole problem, nor are humans, Just cant swallow the "Its all the wolfs fault" koolaid.

It's amazing that some people believe more human development and loss of habitat is either a non-issue or is a benefit to wildlife.  A few hundred wolves inhabit this state...and 7+ million humans...but yea, wolves are definitely the biggest threat.  Lets develop a whole bunch more land so we can make safe places for the deer in towns. 

 

[NOCK NOCK]

The wolf lovers will never be swayed. They claim they aren't pro-wolf, but defend wolves whenever possible. They are the educated intellectuals that love "facts" but just don't force common sense on them. Their abundance in this state is the reason predators are treated like gods and their defense of WDFW is steadfast. At least wolfbait draws them out to show us it isn't just the game department and anti's we are up against on the issue of wolves.

There is a big difference between being a wolf lover and someone who can appreciate nature in it's natural state. The WDFW and any other organization acquiring habitat is a good thing for the flora and the fauna. All the Fauna. I believe that Wolves should be hunted and should fear man. I also believe that it is sad that Wolves were eradicated they are an awesome creature. I believe that we should be able to hunt Cats with dogs to control the population better but I love Cougars and I would not want to live in a world that they do not exist.

WDFW acquiring this land is a good thing.

THIS 

[blackveltbowhunter]

I agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient  way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.   

Some of you people have been hand fed to much liberal propaganda and you believe it. You can't blame dieing herds all on the impacts of humans! In fact the contrary is far more truthful.

There's some very important history that most people keep forgetting or never learned. Lewis and Clark nearly starved to death crossing the Rocky Mountain west (it's all documented) until they got to the Columbia River system and found abundant food, they barely survived the Rocky Mountain region. The only reason there has been abundant deer and elk populations in the mountains is because predators were hunted hard for decades and their numbers brought down to a point where deer, elk, and eventually even moose could flourish.

Ungulate herds have actually flourished with the settlement of the far west. The first two Hudson Bay trading posts in the west were first near Astoria and second at Kettle Falls. There are records of hundreds of wolf hides being traded by the Indian tribes in the early 1800's. My grandfathers both homesteaded here in the very early 1900's, as a little boy my father and grandfather traded with the Indians for salmon at Kettle Falls. My father watched loggers clear land along the Columbia River while Coulee Dam was being built. My dad hunted with Cougar Sam one of the famed cougar bounty hunters during the middle of the 1900's. It was not until after the wolves were brought under control and then cougar were brought under control that ungulate herds really flourished. The 1960's and 1970's were the peak.

Obviously there's a reason there was no moose season at all until near the end of the 1900's, there were almost no moose before that time! Moose have only flourished after predators were controlled and logging operations created huge amounts of perfect habitat.

For those who seem a little foggy on this and especially anyone who has never read any of it, please look up the Lewis and Clark records and the Hudson Bay records!

Elk and deer literally flourish right in the middle of human development! Colorado has the largest elk herd in the world and the epicenter is right in downtown Estes park Colorado! Within the city limits of our nations capitol WA DC there's outstanding deer numbers and hunting opportunities! DON'T miss the Omaha Nebraska buck or the Salt Lake City buck either. Right here in NE WA since the predators have taken over I can probably show you more deer quicker in the city of Colville than in the country.

Most of us want to hunt in a country setting, but the rubbish that human development is causing the loss of deer and elk herds is simply green propaganda. Yes people need to tie up dogs, yes we lose deer on highways, yes i hate to see winter range developed, but predators have prevented herds from recovering from hard winters and that's why herds are not what they used to be!

LOL..... Estes park. Lets not forget that there is no HUNTING impact in many of those places either

You are absolutely correct. I didn't say there was hunting, I was pointing out that elk and other wildlife can flourish alongside humans. Additionally, if you watch those videos you won't see too many cougar or wolves roaming, another reason the elk and deer are flourishing right alongside humans.

Only if tolerated. That was my point. Open a general season in estes and see how long it lasts. Or put that herd adjacent to a bunch of farmers crops and see if it goes unnoticed and if anyone is crying about damage. And thats before crossing the fence about who gets the say so on what happens with the animals. Estes and similar areas are unique in that most folks see eye to eye on mangement. Not sure I want anymore growth where those types of folks are seeing eye to eye on how to manage ungulate herds. Not beneficial for me at all.

Some people have insinuated that human development causes deer and elk to die off, that they can't survive along side humans. I proved that is absolutely false!

I think you are confusing hunting in that issue. No matter where we hunt animals will flee when the shooting starts, that's completely different issue. It's not the human presence that kills animals, they can survive right alongside humans.

Of course I'm like most everyone, I don't want to see human developments everywhere, we need wild places, but I expect people to get the facts straight!

[bearpaw]

Poor Buttons...

https://kimatv.com/news/local/buttons-the-beloved-cle-elum-elk-has-been-tranquilized-and-rehomed


https://www.timescolonist.com/islander/b-c-ending-relocation-of-troublesome-carnivores-1.2336629
B.C. ending relocation of troublesome carnivores
After coming into contact with people, it will be aversion measures — or death
B.C. will no longer relocate large carnivores long distances once they have been in conflict with humans or habituated to human food. Instead, an updated Ministry of the Environment policy says the animals will be destroyed if aversion measures to promote fear of people cannot be implemented.

I can probably google up lots more liberal propaganda showing wildlife living too close to humans is a problem too but I wouldn't want to pollute my noggin any more than it already is.
 

There are wildlife issues everywhere, I guess I'm missing exactly what you are trying to say, or were you replying to my comments, I wasn't sure? 

[jackelope]

Poor Buttons...

https://kimatv.com/news/local/buttons-the-beloved-cle-elum-elk-has-been-tranquilized-and-rehomed


https://www.timescolonist.com/islander/b-c-ending-relocation-of-troublesome-carnivores-1.2336629
B.C. ending relocation of troublesome carnivores
After coming into contact with people, it will be aversion measures — or death
B.C. will no longer relocate large carnivores long distances once they have been in conflict with humans or habituated to human food. Instead, an updated Ministry of the Environment policy says the animals will be destroyed if aversion measures to promote fear of people cannot be implemented.

I can probably google up lots more liberal propaganda showing wildlife living too close to humans is a problem too but I wouldn't want to pollute my noggin any more than it already is.
 

There are wildlife issues everywhere, I guess I'm missing exactly what you are trying to say, or were you replying to my comments, I wasn't sure? 

Basically I'm saying that for all the Estes park examples, there are examples to point the other way regarding human/wildlife relations.

[jackelope]

Again...just another something that adds to the issues wildlife has staying alive. It's not just predators.

[vandeman17]

I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.

WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. 

[bearpaw]

I'm going to shorten the message string so it's easier to read.

I agree there is a lack of predators in those area as well. But the reason they are flourishing as you point out is also a lack of human predation AND tolerance of their presence. Regardless of whether or not they flourish is still of little value if we are talking about hunting anyway. A huge buck in some greenies yard is about the same use to me as a huge buck in a wolfs belly. Of all the predators out there, humans are far and away the most efficient. Hence why we have to control ourselves. I do agree with the posts about predator pits,however, Washington is in one and it sucks. Herds need active management of predators during recovery phases after hard winters, fires etc...and human impact on predators is an efficient  way to accomplish this. But comparing areas like estes to places like methow is apples and oranges IMO.

I think you misunderstood my comments. I wasn't necessarily saying Estes and Methow are the same. The topics in this thread has varied greatly, I was addressing the green propaganda that humans and animals can't thrive alongside each other and I showed proof to backup my comments that elk and deer can flourish together, it's not simply the presence of humans that misplaces wiulfdlife as the green agenda would like people to believe.

From a hunting perspective some hunters want to get away from all human disturbance and hunt in wild places, others don't care and many hunters actually need easier access. I understand all types of hunters and think all hunters should have opportunities that please them. But, I do not think one type of hunter should try to take away from another type of hunter, example is that some hunters need access roads and others want to take away access, but that's getting further away so I'll stop with that comment on that issue.

I'm not sure that we actually disagree, I think maybe we just misunderstood each other? 

I work in crop insurance and my clients are all apple/pear/cherry growers in Central Washington. Every year, there are loses due to things like wet weather, cold weather, poor pollination, wind, etc. I enjoy asking my growers what THEY think caused the issue with their crops and its interesting to hear the variety of answers which have zero chance to be proven correct. Point of all that is that it reminds me of this thread. I think we can all agree that herds, especially deer in central and north central wa, are hurting. They are hurting from a pleathora of factors and trying to pin it on one reason or culprit is like one of my growers trying to tell me why his apples were smaller than normal.

WDFW buying up new land is good, period. The more important thing this thread should bring to light is ALL the potential factors at play here and instead of taking the stance of focusing on one, maybe we should look more at chipping away at small things. I have reached out to a few contacts around here about volunteering to do some replanting of vegetation lost in the fires. It might not be much and it is surely just one of the many issues, but at least its a start. 

In areas where critical winter range is at stake and especially in areas with fenced orchards I totally agree, wildlife needs some space. The reason I became active in this discussion is because some comments suggested wolves were not a big factor, they are. I also get involved when I see people trying to say that humans are the end all. That's not true either! I showed that wildlife can flourish alongside humans. I had to inject examples of areas with no orchards to prove my points. Have a great day. 

[Buckhunter82]

We never said that wolves are the only reason behind low deer numbers. Just that wolves can play a huge part in lowering and rebounding of prey animals. Why do you guys keep twisting things? An area I used to see good numbers of whitetail and get game cam pics daily of deer started to change 3 years ago. This year the only deer I saw there was 3 carcasses surrounded by wolf tracks and scat. Only 2 pictures of deer on camera, mostly wolves and cougars in a 4-5 month soak. Why a change in deer numbers? I live on a 200 acre piece of land about 5 miles as the crow flies from this spot. Property is surrounded by homes and has plenty of deer for now. Why aren't all of these deer up where they used to be? Afterall that land is state and protected from development.

[idahohuntr]

To add to the human/wildlife interface not always being all that beneficial for wildlife...crop damage by wildlife (and the lack of tolerance for such damage by producers) is a major driver of lower population objectives across the Western US.  Once the State sets a lower objective, they use very aggressive hunts to slaughter the elk and bring populations down to levels that are more acceptable to producers.  As an example, take a look at whats being proposed across southern Idaho this year...

In areas where tolerance is higher or the damage is not that costly - the ag interface can be a very productive thing for wildlife...great food source!