Post by: mountainman on September 26, 2023, 11:09:08 AM
https://methowvalleynews.com/2023/09/21/praise-criticism-for-proposed-winter-wildlife-closures/?fbclid=IwAR1WILfY7n2HmzTi7--FRCwrrjKEkM3oIhicAxUZeBTuz8HLmQVELHCDMsI_aem_ATpOccKVdFafEo29z5qzPgrVFXs5SdJQwqJ_-kA4evJlT4aVnOMVtkK4CX2HZ_zxySQ&mibextid=9R9pXO
Post by: Mtnwalker on September 26, 2023, 12:37:48 PM
Post by: mountainman on September 26, 2023, 01:37:52 PM
Care to elaborate?
If you read the posted article, the fact is the Methow herd is in dire shape for sure! The comments of hikers/snowshoers/c-country skiers taking the blame, along with fires (a whole nother topic) being the main cause for the decimation of the herds, with a passing comment on wolves and cougar and bear predation, the discontinuing of the feeding programs of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s barely mentioned. And the comment that the “town” deer are predominate whitetail and not mules, lends me to believe his boots on the ground research is lacking on a large scale. Managment has been failing these herds for the last few decades, and the blame is being pushed for sure!
Just my opinion from growing up, hunting this area, and sadly seeing this change…
Heart-breaking..
Post by: LDennis24 on September 26, 2023, 01:43:04 PM
Post by: Mtnwalker on September 26, 2023, 02:06:02 PM
Care to elaborate?
If you read the posted article, the fact is the Methow herd is in dire shape for sure! The comments of hikers/snowshoers/c-country skiers taking the blame, along with fires (a whole nother topic) being the main cause for the decimation of the herds, with a passing comment on wolves and cougar and bear predation, the discontinuing of the feeding programs of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s barely mentioned. And the comment that the “town” deer are predominate whitetail and not mules, lends me to believe his boots on the ground research is lacking on a large scale. Managment has been failing these herds for the last few decades, and the blame is being pushed for sure!
Just my opinion from growing up, hunting this area, and sadly seeing this change…
Heart-breaking..
Thanks for the clarification. I did read the article and agree with needing to limit recreation on some of this winter ground, but also agree that mismanagement is what got us here in the first place. I'm guessing we'll never see another deer feeding program in WA with CWD lingering. The comment about mule deer being important because they're the primary food source for wolves and lions is telling
Post by: mountainman on September 26, 2023, 02:14:59 PM
VeryCare to elaborate?
If you read the posted article, the fact is the Methow herd is in dire shape for sure! The comments of hikers/snowshoers/c-country skiers taking the blame, along with fires (a whole nother topic) being the main cause for the decimation of the herds, with a passing comment on wolves and cougar and bear predation, the discontinuing of the feeding programs of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s barely mentioned. And the comment that the “town” deer are predominate whitetail and not mules, lends me to believe his boots on the ground research is lacking on a large scale. Managment has been failing these herds for the last few decades, and the blame is being pushed for sure!
Just my opinion from growing up, hunting this area, and sadly seeing this change…
Heart-breaking..
Thanks for the clarification. I did read the article and agree with needing to limit recreation on some of this winter ground, but also agree that mismanagement is what got us here in the first place. I'm guessing we'll never see another deer feeding program in WA with CWD lingering. The comment about mule deer being important because they're the primary food source for wolves and lions is telling
Post by: boneaddict on September 26, 2023, 02:22:12 PM
Post by: mountainman on September 26, 2023, 02:25:31 PM
You nailed it MM. I doubt I’ll even go up there this fall. Thank God for the memoriesWe were fortunate for sure Bone!
Post by: bearhunter99 on September 26, 2023, 03:55:14 PM
Probably the most telling comment in the whole article. They wouldn't care about the populations if it weren't for the wolves... They don't want the deer to be harvested by humans they just want enough in the ecosystem to feed their precious wolvesCare to elaborate?
If you read the posted article, the fact is the Methow herd is in dire shape for sure! The comments of hikers/snowshoers/c-country skiers taking the blame, along with fires (a whole nother topic) being the main cause for the decimation of the herds, with a passing comment on wolves and cougar and bear predation, the discontinuing of the feeding programs of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s barely mentioned. And the comment that the “town” deer are predominate whitetail and not mules, lends me to believe his boots on the ground research is lacking on a large scale. Managment has been failing these herds for the last few decades, and the blame is being pushed for sure!
Just my opinion from growing up, hunting this area, and sadly seeing this change…
Heart-breaking..
Thanks for the clarification. I did read the article and agree with needing to limit recreation on some of this winter ground, but also agree that mismanagement is what got us here in the first place. I'm guessing we'll never see another deer feeding program in WA with CWD lingering. The comment about mule deer being important because they're the primary food source for wolves and lions is telling
Post by: LDennis24 on September 26, 2023, 05:49:52 PM
Post by: Kascade_Killer on September 26, 2023, 07:32:22 PM
After reading OP article I don’t know much about Fitkin (other then he’s been with wdfw for a long time), but I’m just glad there is a plan to support the herd. Bare minimum maybe some of the Methow locals (that aren’t totally irrational relocated Seattle-ites) will start to realize the impact of winter recreation and million dollar homes in the sagebrush have on the MD.
I didn’t have the fortune to hunt the Methow in its glory days but have family that have occupied the same wall tent spot since the 60’s without missing a year, if I mentioned our name many old timers would probably know of the camp. I grew up seeing pictures from old clippings of the local paper with our family holding 15 or more nice bucks. Now I know it will never be that again, but I’m glad Scott is making an effort to reverse or at least slow the extinction. The unfortunate part of it all is our WDFW bios can do their jobs, have grand plans, and restoration projects but as long as they don’t have the support from the commission they will continue to make it an uphill battle as they dump wolves & now grizzlies into the state with no management plan in place.
I’m just a young buck (early 20s) compared to most on this forum and am probably missing a lot of the story behind the Methow herds downfall. That being said hopefully they can get this passed and it’s a stepping stone in at least awareness for the herd. Or better yet the for-mentioned irrational Seattle-ites relocate to Aspen,CO for their precious XC skiing.
Post by: X-Force on September 26, 2023, 09:01:31 PM
Between development of the valley floor, at least 3 wolf packs and little to no management of cougars and bears I don’t doubt the herd is in bad shape.
Over the last 10 years I would see 3-10 legal bucks a day… 2 years ago I saw 1 legal buck a day. Last year 1 legal buck all season.
Closing areas during the winter will make minimal positive impact because the predators are still there.
Post by: MtnMuley on September 26, 2023, 09:51:34 PM
Post by: wolfbait on September 27, 2023, 01:56:19 AM
Care to elaborate?
If you read the posted article, the fact is the Methow herd is in dire shape for sure! The comments of hikers/snowshoers/c-country skiers taking the blame, along with fires (a whole nother topic) being the main cause for the decimation of the herds, with a passing comment on wolves and cougar and bear predation, the discontinuing of the feeding programs of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s barely mentioned. And the comment that the “town” deer are predominate whitetail and not mules, lends me to believe his boots on the ground research is lacking on a large scale. Managment has been failing these herds for the last few decades, and the blame is being pushed for sure!
Just my opinion from growing up, hunting this area, and sadly seeing this change…
Heart-breaking..
:yeah: :bash:
Someone care to share what they know of Scott Fitkin’s perspective or management plan for the Methow herd? Maybe someone has a link to a management plan I can read up on.
After reading OP article I don’t know much about Fitkin (other then he’s been with wdfw for a long time), but I’m just glad there is a plan to support the herd. Bare minimum maybe some of the Methow locals (that aren’t totally irrational relocated Seattle-ites) will start to realize the impact of winter recreation and million dollar homes in the sagebrush have on the MD.
I didn’t have the fortune to hunt the Methow in its glory days but have family that have occupied the same wall tent spot since the 60’s without missing a year, if I mentioned our name many old timers would probably know of the camp. I grew up seeing pictures from old clippings of the local paper with our family holding 15 or more nice bucks. Now I know it will never be that again, but I’m glad Scott is making an effort to reverse or at least slow the extinction. The unfortunate part of it all is our WDFW bios can do their jobs, have grand plans, and restoration projects but as long as they don’t have the support from the commission they will continue to make it an uphill battle as they dump wolves & now grizzlies into the state with no management plan in place.
I’m just a young buck (early 20s) compared to most on this forum and am probably missing a lot of the story behind the Methow herds downfall. That being said hopefully they can get this passed and it’s a stepping stone in at least awareness for the herd. Or better yet the for-mentioned irrational Seattle-ites relocate to Aspen,CO for their precious XC skiing.
Hell WDFW could close the whole country down it won't make a dam bit of difference to the deer. This closure is not about the deer, and more than likely you will see more closures in the future using some BS story just like this one.
I see there are still people who partially blame "habitat" on the decimation of the deer< There would be far fewer deer if they couldn't get protection from town or around homes up and down the Valley. We never had town deer before wolves, deer feel safe close to homes and people> I have seen deer hang on county roads, lay right in the gravel on the edge the road when wolves are in close just like cattle on the range land roads.
WDFW are directly responsible for the condition of the deer herds we have today, and their complete lack of management of deer. If they were managing the deer, you would see them feeding them through hard winters, you would see predator control, you wouldn't see doe tags etc.. Once the Game department changed over to WDFW things went south, what we have today is not about conservation, it is about destroying everything that has to do with your wildlife.
Any time you see fitkin pretending to give a dam about deer you can figure it's a BS ride, after all he was a huge supporter of wolves clear back in the 1980's. Under fitkin most if not all wolf killed livestock turned into everything but wolves. and as we are seeing with this article the BS is still going on today. Blame those who have nothing to do with the decimation of the deer, protect wolves and other predators above all else.
Post by: timberfaller on September 27, 2023, 08:23:39 AM
Have witnessed the decline, all I have to say is, they created the problem and now comes the blame game!! They bought up land, then did nothing with it, they passed up protecting winter range habitat and WHAT do you think is going to happen!!?? Oh ya, don't forget bringing in the wolves!! Not fighting hard enough over hound and bait hunting, etc etc etc!! Not to mention the Cat problems too!
When you don't manage based on real science YOU are going to lose every-time. Might take a few years but it will happen none the less! :bash: :bash: See: disappearing green belts
And ya, the Methow has become "ridiculousness" in many ways! Just ask Jingles and "what" they did for him!! :bash:
end of rant! I could go on for a long time!!
Post by: hunter399 on September 27, 2023, 10:00:04 AM
But did read the article.
Seems like a step in the right direction.
Also needs that antlerless harvest gone,fawn survival up.
Seems like winter habitat,and less antlerless harvest would go hand and hand for a desired result.
Otherwise what's the point.
Post by: highcountry_hunter on September 27, 2023, 10:02:11 AM
Also the fact that they put “harvesting” in quotes when referring to bucks taken by hunters.Probably the most telling comment in the whole article. They wouldn't care about the populations if it weren't for the wolves... They don't want the deer to be harvested by humans they just want enough in the ecosystem to feed their precious wolvesCare to elaborate?
If you read the posted article, the fact is the Methow herd is in dire shape for sure! The comments of hikers/snowshoers/c-country skiers taking the blame, along with fires (a whole nother topic) being the main cause for the decimation of the herds, with a passing comment on wolves and cougar and bear predation, the discontinuing of the feeding programs of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s barely mentioned. And the comment that the “town” deer are predominate whitetail and not mules, lends me to believe his boots on the ground research is lacking on a large scale. Managment has been failing these herds for the last few decades, and the blame is being pushed for sure!
Just my opinion from growing up, hunting this area, and sadly seeing this change…
Heart-breaking..
Thanks for the clarification. I did read the article and agree with needing to limit recreation on some of this winter ground, but also agree that mismanagement is what got us here in the first place. I'm guessing we'll never see another deer feeding program in WA with CWD lingering. The comment about mule deer being important because they're the primary food source for wolves and lions is telling
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Kascade_Killer on September 27, 2023, 10:50:27 AM
Care to elaborate?
If you read the posted article, the fact is the Methow herd is in dire shape for sure! The comments of hikers/snowshoers/c-country skiers taking the blame, along with fires (a whole nother topic) being the main cause for the decimation of the herds, with a passing comment on wolves and cougar and bear predation, the discontinuing of the feeding programs of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s barely mentioned. And the comment that the “town” deer are predominate whitetail and not mules, lends me to believe his boots on the ground research is lacking on a large scale. Managment has been failing these herds for the last few decades, and the blame is being pushed for sure!
Just my opinion from growing up, hunting this area, and sadly seeing this change…
Heart-breaking..
:yeah: :bash:Someone care to share what they know of Scott Fitkin’s perspective or management plan for the Methow herd? Maybe someone has a link to a management plan I can read up on.
After reading OP article I don’t know much about Fitkin (other then he’s been with wdfw for a long time), but I’m just glad there is a plan to support the herd. Bare minimum maybe some of the Methow locals (that aren’t totally irrational relocated Seattle-ites) will start to realize the impact of winter recreation and million dollar homes in the sagebrush have on the MD.
I didn’t have the fortune to hunt the Methow in its glory days but have family that have occupied the same wall tent spot since the 60’s without missing a year, if I mentioned our name many old timers would probably know of the camp. I grew up seeing pictures from old clippings of the local paper with our family holding 15 or more nice bucks. Now I know it will never be that again, but I’m glad Scott is making an effort to reverse or at least slow the extinction. The unfortunate part of it all is our WDFW bios can do their jobs, have grand plans, and restoration projects but as long as they don’t have the support from the commission they will continue to make it an uphill battle as they dump wolves & now grizzlies into the state with no management plan in place.
I’m just a young buck (early 20s) compared to most on this forum and am probably missing a lot of the story behind the Methow herds downfall. That being said hopefully they can get this passed and it’s a stepping stone in at least awareness for the herd. Or better yet the for-mentioned irrational Seattle-ites relocate to Aspen,CO for their precious XC skiing.
Hell WDFW could close the whole country down it won't make a dam bit of difference to the deer. This closure is not about the deer, and more than likely you will see more closures in the future using some BS story just like this one.
I see there are still people who partially blame "habitat" on the decimation of the deer< There would be far fewer deer if they couldn't get protection from town or around homes up and down the Valley. We never had town deer before wolves, deer feel safe close to homes and people> I have seen deer hang on county roads, lay right in the gravel on the edge the road when wolves are in close just like cattle on the range land roads.
WDFW are directly responsible for the condition of the deer herds we have today, and their complete lack of management of deer. If they were managing the deer, you would see them feeding them through hard winters, you would see predator control, you wouldn't see doe tags etc.. Once the Game department changed over to WDFW things went south, what we have today is not about conservation, it is about destroying everything that has to do with your wildlife.
Any time you see fitkin pretending to give a dam about deer you can figure it's a BS ride, after all he was a huge supporter of wolves clear back in the 1980's. Under fitkin most if not all wolf killed livestock turned into everything but wolves. and as we are seeing with this article the BS is still going on today. Blame those who have nothing to do with the decimation of the deer, protect wolves and other predators above all else.
Wolfbait,
Thank you for the background on Fitkin, disappointing to hear his support on wolves in his earlier days. Much less the fall of the herd under his watch since he’s been there for as long as he can.
Does anyone have old game regs to see if the antler-less tags have seen a decrease in the last 10 years or so? Looks like most units are set at a quota of 5. I’ll never understand the antlerless hunts in that part of the state. If you need the meat that bad come over to Spokane I could send you a pin and put you on a 1.5-2.5 year old whitetail within hours, they are like rats over here.
The predation and overall support for the herd is obviously the biggest contributor to the herds downfall along with probably over harvest before the turn of the century. That being said I still support the closure of the area during the winter. Feels good for someone other than hunters to lose the rights to something for once. Not to say that we probably are next.
Post by: huntnphool on September 27, 2023, 11:02:43 AM
Closing that area is only allowing the predators to have an open table to what's left. It's right in the prime zone of the wintering grounds for the Lightning Ck. pack. This closure is about the absolute worst thing possible for the struggling muley herd there.
+1
Post by: LDennis24 on September 27, 2023, 11:17:48 AM
Closing that area is only allowing the predators to have an open table to what's left. It's right in the prime zone of the wintering grounds for the Lightning Ck. pack. This closure is about the absolute worst thing possible for the struggling muley herd there.
So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it... :dunno:
Post by: LDennis24 on September 27, 2023, 11:23:20 AM
Post by: baker5150 on September 27, 2023, 11:41:19 AM
I have no experience or expertise in the area.
But did read the article.
Seems like a step in the right direction.
Also needs that antlerless harvest gone,fawn survival up.
Seems like winter habitat,and less antlerless harvest would go hand and hand for a desired result.
Otherwise what's the point.
:yeah:
Protecting wintering herds has been an effective tactic across the West for decades.
This should be seen as step 1 in a 50 step process for protecting and rebuilding the Methow herd.
Post by: RC on September 27, 2023, 11:55:17 AM
Closing that area is only allowing the predators to have an open table to what's left. It's right in the prime zone of the wintering grounds for the Lightning Ck. pack. This closure is about the absolute worst thing possible for the struggling muley herd there.
So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it... :dunno:
It doesn't matter. They could close the area for recreation, which would allow predators to come into the winter range more easily and stress the the herd, or they can leave it open to recreation and the herd would be stressed by all the people in the area. Either way, it's a lose lose situation for deer.
Post by: fireweed on September 27, 2023, 01:58:00 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on September 27, 2023, 02:42:09 PM
Post by: bigmacc on September 27, 2023, 03:24:12 PM
Post by: RC on September 27, 2023, 04:09:51 PM
After years of going to different meetings it came apparent the WDFW were managing this herd for predators and not hunters, I’ve been saying this for years, Fitkin pretty much admitted it with a few statements within this article. I do agree it’s not a bad idea to close access to some winter range for a few months during the dead of winter to guard against harassment from humans but what good will that do when they’re just going to even be more harassed by cats and wolves. Like some have said they’re just providing a buffet for an exploding predator population. The 3 real issues to the Methow heard are in this order….1 predators, 2 predators, 3 predators. The mismanagement of predators are the main issue. Manage predators more aggressively and manage the herd for hunters, sportsman, photographers and even for folks who don’t hunt but enjoy going out and looking at deer instead of managing them to sustain cats, bears and wolves so THEIR numbers prosper and grow would solve the problem for all. I’m not saying to obliterate all cats bears and wolves, just get their numbers back in check where the herd can grow. I remember as a boy how neat it was to see a bear or cougar, they belong just like the deer herd does(except for wolves because I believe they were planted) but management needs to be balanced for all user groups not lopsided as it is now with the focus being put on coddling and nurturing predators. Like I said he pretty much said just that, not in those words but it’s the gist of it. Listening at some meetings in the past going back 25 years or so and reading between the lines, I made that conclusion years ago.
I think you are spot on with this, and if you bring this up in a meeting...they will agree with you. They are definitely going full predator protection and I believe the issue they see is that there are not enough predators.
As far as I can tell, their wet dream is to turn the entire state into a Yellowstone park. "Mismanagement" to them is that we allow any predator hunting at all. Bottom line is that they want predators to do all "management" of the deer herds for us.
Post by: jstone on September 27, 2023, 05:41:25 PM
Post by: wolfbait on September 27, 2023, 08:05:18 PM
After years of going to different meetings it came apparent the WDFW were managing this herd for predators and not hunters, I’ve been saying this for years, Fitkin pretty much admitted it with a few statements within this article. I do agree it’s not a bad idea to close access to some winter range for a few months during the dead of winter to guard against harassment from humans but what good will that do when they’re just going to even be more harassed by cats and wolves. Like some have said they’re just providing a buffet for an exploding predator population. The 3 real issues to the Methow heard are in this order….1 predators, 2 predators, 3 predators. The mismanagement of predators are the main issue. Manage predators more aggressively and manage the herd for hunters, sportsman, photographers and even for folks who don’t hunt but enjoy going out and looking at deer instead of managing them to sustain cats, bears and wolves so THEIR numbers prosper and grow would solve the problem for all. I’m not saying to obliterate all cats bears and wolves, just get their numbers back in check where the herd can grow. I remember as a boy how neat it was to see a bear or cougar, they belong just like the deer herd does(except for wolves because I believe they were planted) but management needs to be balanced for all user groups not lopsided as it is now with the focus being put on coddling and nurturing predators. Like I said he pretty much said just that, not in those words but it’s the gist of it. Listening at some meetings in the past going back 25 years or so and reading between the lines, I made that conclusion years ago.
:yeah:
Then there's the fact that wolves do a lot of killing in the dark hours, just ask some of the ranchers. I find it sorta funny that people think closing off public lands to protect deer from the public is going to help the deer, when the deer are mostly in town or wintering next to peoples homes.
In the winter if you care to spend some time here scouting you will find the cougars and wolves killing deer in the low lands, and river bottoms, some within a few miles of town. I have driven plowed back roads in the winter 60 plus miles and seen no deer in the foothills, but as you get closer to town you will start seeing deer.
This Summer wolves that "should" have been out in the "closure area" killed 6 goats in broad daylight a few miles from town, when the newbies left for the day to go play.
It is not the people recreating that impact the deer, it's those running WDFW.
I wonder if that article was mostly for people who don't have a clue or are brainwashed to the point of stupid.
Post by: LDennis24 on September 27, 2023, 08:36:39 PM
Post by: wolfbait on September 27, 2023, 09:08:11 PM
I don't think anyone on here believes that just the simple closure will solve the issue, but I for one believe it will help. Nobody has an answer for all the other wintering grounds and if we should quit closing them down for the same reasons? We're just giving predators the advantage...
Heavy predator control is the only thing that would turn this around, and then it's going to take more than a few years, and cutting doe tags would help. But even then with the predator pit our deer herd is in, I highly doubt at this point it can be turned around. How many wolves does WA have? And how would we go about killing enough to cut down on deer predation? What's the chance of a liberal hunting/trapping season on wolves in WA? And what's the chance of bringing hound hunting back for bears and cougars?
So now we get back to where we are, closing down public lands, which will do nothing to help the deer.
The deer moved to the bottom lands and river bottoms to get away from wolves. So basically they are closing down land that has very few if any deer on it.
Post by: Scruffy on September 28, 2023, 01:12:09 AM
I don't think anyone on here believes that just the simple closure will solve the issue, but I for one believe it will help. Nobody has an answer for all the other wintering grounds and if we should quit closing them down for the same reasons? We're just giving predators the advantage...
I agree just a closure won't fix all of the issues but it will help. I have hunted the Winthrop area, all the WDFW land I thought was set aside for conservation has become the liberal's playground. I know it's public land..... They go running for exercise, walk their dogs off leash, ride bicycles, and horses all during year and during hunting season while hunters are out hunting. None of them have a Discover pass hanging from their mirror. One area is a designated handicap hunting area, not every hunter can go miles from a road but they don't care, they think it's their land.
Those people don't stop just because winter comes, this only bring the cross country skiers, and snowmobile riders out. Take last winter for example, early deep snow then frozen over. The deer were doing all they could to stay alive. They don't need the disruption from people using the land for anything other than conservation. This year I think is heading the same way with early snows.
Now for those saying it will only help feed the predators. How many of you made a trip to the area to hunt bear and cougars to help keep them in check? We can't do much about wolves but you can kill 2 bears and a cougar to help the cause. Maybe you hunt elsewhere or skip deer season for a year or two and hunt predators instead. Anything and everything helps except sitting around saying "That won't work" :bash:
Post by: wolfbait on September 28, 2023, 03:47:32 AM
I don't think anyone on here believes that just the simple closure will solve the issue, but I for one believe it will help. Nobody has an answer for all the other wintering grounds and if we should quit closing them down for the same reasons? We're just giving predators the advantage...
I agree just a closure won't fix all of the issues but it will help. I have hunted the Winthrop area, all the WDFW land I thought was set aside for conservation has become the liberal's playground. I know it's public land..... They go running for exercise, walk their dogs off leash, ride bicycles, and horses all during year and during hunting season while hunters are out hunting. None of them have a Discover pass hanging from their mirror. One area is a designated handicap hunting area, not every hunter can go miles from a road but they don't care, they think it's their land.
Those people don't stop just because winter comes, this only bring the cross country skiers, and snowmobile riders out. Take last winter for example, early deep snow then frozen over. The deer were doing all they could to stay alive. They don't need the disruption from people using the land for anything other than conservation. This year I think is heading the same way with early snows.
Now for those saying it will only help feed the predators. How many of you made a trip to the area to hunt bear and cougars to help keep them in check? We can't do much about wolves but you can kill 2 bears and a cougar to help the cause. Maybe you hunt elsewhere or skip deer season for a year or two and hunt predators instead. Anything and everything helps except sitting around saying "That won't work" :bash:
They could help the deer by feeding through a bad winter etc., but they won't. So as you can see it isn't about deer, it is about closing public lands. Pretty soon there will be other closures and when they run with a BS story, for a BS reason, we can all look back at where it started and think we should have fought harder to stop it then, kinda like the first wolf pack in 70 years BS.
This closure has never been about the deer.
Carry on,
Post by: Alchase on September 28, 2023, 06:10:12 AM
I don't think anyone on here believes that just the simple closure will solve the issue, but I for one believe it will help. Nobody has an answer for all the other wintering grounds and if we should quit closing them down for the same reasons? We're just giving predators the advantage...
I agree just a closure won't fix all of the issues but it will help. I have hunted the Winthrop area, all the WDFW land I thought was set aside for conservation has become the liberal's playground. I know it's public land..... They go running for exercise, walk their dogs off leash, ride bicycles, and horses all during year and during hunting season while hunters are out hunting. None of them have a Discover pass hanging from their mirror. One area is a designated handicap hunting area, not every hunter can go miles from a road but they don't care, they think it's their land.
Those people don't stop just because winter comes, this only bring the cross country skiers, and snowmobile riders out. Take last winter for example, early deep snow then frozen over. The deer were doing all they could to stay alive. They don't need the disruption from people using the land for anything other than conservation. This year I think is heading the same way with early snows.
Now for those saying it will only help feed the predators. How many of you made a trip to the area to hunt bear and cougars to help keep them in check? We can't do much about wolves but you can kill 2 bears and a cougar to help the cause. Maybe you hunt elsewhere or skip deer season for a year or two and hunt predators instead. Anything and everything helps except sitting around saying "That won't work" :bash:
They could help the deer by feeding through a bad winter etc., but they won't. So as you can see it isn't about deer, it is about closing public lands. Pretty soon there will be other closures and when they run with a BS story, for a BS reason, we can all look back at where it started and think we should have fought harder to stop it then, kinda like the first wolf pack in 70 years BS.
This closure has never been about the deer.
Carry on,
:yeah:
I would add, it is also clear they are trying to kill hunting and using the decline Deer numbers as their excuse.
Post by: LDennis24 on September 28, 2023, 06:40:18 AM
Post by: highcountry_hunter on September 28, 2023, 07:52:44 AM
The ungulates are very similar around the Colville area. To a newcomer, you’d think this is a sportsman’s paradise since it’s very common to see herds of 30+ elk in the farmers fields on the outskirts of town.After years of going to different meetings it came apparent the WDFW were managing this herd for predators and not hunters, I’ve been saying this for years, Fitkin pretty much admitted it with a few statements within this article. I do agree it’s not a bad idea to close access to some winter range for a few months during the dead of winter to guard against harassment from humans but what good will that do when they’re just going to even be more harassed by cats and wolves. Like some have said they’re just providing a buffet for an exploding predator population. The 3 real issues to the Methow heard are in this order….1 predators, 2 predators, 3 predators. The mismanagement of predators are the main issue. Manage predators more aggressively and manage the herd for hunters, sportsman, photographers and even for folks who don’t hunt but enjoy going out and looking at deer instead of managing them to sustain cats, bears and wolves so THEIR numbers prosper and grow would solve the problem for all. I’m not saying to obliterate all cats bears and wolves, just get their numbers back in check where the herd can grow. I remember as a boy how neat it was to see a bear or cougar, they belong just like the deer herd does(except for wolves because I believe they were planted) but management needs to be balanced for all user groups not lopsided as it is now with the focus being put on coddling and nurturing predators. Like I said he pretty much said just that, not in those words but it’s the gist of it. Listening at some meetings in the past going back 25 years or so and reading between the lines, I made that conclusion years ago.
:yeah:
Then there's the fact that wolves do a lot of killing in the dark hours, just ask some of the ranchers. I find it sorta funny that people think closing off public lands to protect deer from the public is going to help the deer, when the deer are mostly in town or wintering next to peoples homes.
In the winter if you care to spend some time here scouting you will find the cougars and wolves killing deer in the low lands, and river bottoms, some within a few miles of town. I have driven plowed back roads in the winter 60 plus miles and seen no deer in the foothills, but as you get closer to town you will start seeing deer.
This Summer wolves that "should" have been out in the "closure area" killed 6 goats in broad daylight a few miles from town, when the newbies left for the day to go play.
It is not the people recreating that impact the deer, it's those running WDFW.
I wonder if that article was mostly for people who don't have a clue or are brainwashed to the point of stupid.
Get 5 miles from town and you better be a dang good hunter to get on them consistently.
Civilization still doesn’t deter the predators completely tho, once a week my wife shows me something off Facebook where someone on the outskirts of town has pictures of wolves or lions in their back field.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: hunter399 on September 28, 2023, 08:08:10 AM
:yeah:The ungulates are very similar around the Colville area. To a newcomer, you’d think this is a sportsman’s paradise since it’s very common to see herds of 30+ elk in the farmers fields on the outskirts of town.After years of going to different meetings it came apparent the WDFW were managing this herd for predators and not hunters, I’ve been saying this for years, Fitkin pretty much admitted it with a few statements within this article. I do agree it’s not a bad idea to close access to some winter range for a few months during the dead of winter to guard against harassment from humans but what good will that do when they’re just going to even be more harassed by cats and wolves. Like some have said they’re just providing a buffet for an exploding predator population. The 3 real issues to the Methow heard are in this order….1 predators, 2 predators, 3 predators. The mismanagement of predators are the main issue. Manage predators more aggressively and manage the herd for hunters, sportsman, photographers and even for folks who don’t hunt but enjoy going out and looking at deer instead of managing them to sustain cats, bears and wolves so THEIR numbers prosper and grow would solve the problem for all. I’m not saying to obliterate all cats bears and wolves, just get their numbers back in check where the herd can grow. I remember as a boy how neat it was to see a bear or cougar, they belong just like the deer herd does(except for wolves because I believe they were planted) but management needs to be balanced for all user groups not lopsided as it is now with the focus being put on coddling and nurturing predators. Like I said he pretty much said just that, not in those words but it’s the gist of it. Listening at some meetings in the past going back 25 years or so and reading between the lines, I made that conclusion years ago.
:yeah:
Then there's the fact that wolves do a lot of killing in the dark hours, just ask some of the ranchers. I find it sorta funny that people think closing off public lands to protect deer from the public is going to help the deer, when the deer are mostly in town or wintering next to peoples homes.
In the winter if you care to spend some time here scouting you will find the cougars and wolves killing deer in the low lands, and river bottoms, some within a few miles of town. I have driven plowed back roads in the winter 60 plus miles and seen no deer in the foothills, but as you get closer to town you will start seeing deer.
This Summer wolves that "should" have been out in the "closure area" killed 6 goats in broad daylight a few miles from town, when the newbies left for the day to go play.
It is not the people recreating that impact the deer, it's those running WDFW.
I wonder if that article was mostly for people who don't have a clue or are brainwashed to the point of stupid.
Get 5 miles from town and you better be a dang good hunter to get on them consistently.
Civilization still doesn’t deter the predators completely tho, once a week my wife shows me something off Facebook where someone on the outskirts of town has pictures of wolves or lions in their back field.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree.
Also will say antlerless harvest for deer in NE has been gone for 4years . Really the only areas it has made a difference is close to town. I'd really be pushing for no antlerless harvest. Cause with the predators,it could take ten years + to rebound.
That's what's happening here.
Post by: mcrawfordaf on September 28, 2023, 08:20:30 AM
Would recommend the listen: https://elliottoutdoorgear.podbean.com/ (https://elliottoutdoorgear.podbean.com/)
Post by: timberfaller on September 28, 2023, 09:34:49 AM
Post by: huntnphool on September 28, 2023, 11:58:50 AM
So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...
Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.
And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses? :rolleyes:
Post by: mountainman on September 28, 2023, 12:12:40 PM
So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...
Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.
And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses? :rolleyes:
Will also add that in the Methow with over 130 miles of groomed ski trails, provides trailways that otherwise would keep deer yarded up and over browsing a small area leading to starvation during heavy snow falls. Yes, deer aren’t too stressed as reported by hikers and skiers. Snowmobiles are a different story.
Post by: LDennis24 on September 28, 2023, 12:36:21 PM
So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...
Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.
And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses? :rolleyes:
Is it strictly for safety or is it because there is more to eat in people's backyards? The same.thing happened every year when I lived in Mill A near Willard and Trout Lake. The deer come into town in the winter because humans clear the ground for them and there are juniper in the yard to eat and other browse. I don't know, I'm just bringing it up because I've seen the same thing in other areas. And I asked already, if this predator issue is true then isn't it true everywhere else that they close areas down? Do you have the opinion that we should eliminate all wintering areas because we are just feeding predators?
Post by: huntnphool on September 28, 2023, 01:08:07 PM
So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...
Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.
And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses? :rolleyes:
Is it strictly for safety or is it because there is more to eat in people's backyards? The same.thing happened every year when I lived in Mill A near Willard and Trout Lake. The deer come into town in the winter because humans clear the ground for them and there are juniper in the yard to eat and other browse. I don't know, I'm just bringing it up because I've seen the same thing in other areas. And I asked already, if this predator issue is true then isn't it true everywhere else that they close areas down? Do you have the opinion that we should eliminate all wintering areas because we are just feeding predators?
I have no issue with hikers in these areas, “mechanized” equipment should be prohibited in these areas during critical months.
As a kid, I remember signs at gates in the Methow that actually said “Mechanized” vehicles prohibited. They should go back to that IMO.
So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...
Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.
And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses? :rolleyes:
Is it strictly for safety or is it because there is more to eat in people's backyards? The same.thing happened every year when I lived in Mill A near Willard and Trout Lake. The deer come into town in the winter because humans clear the ground for them and there are juniper in the yard to eat and other browse. I don't know, I'm just bringing it up because I've seen the same thing in other areas. And I asked already, if this predator issue is true then isn't it true everywhere else that they close areas down? Do you have the opinion that we should eliminate all wintering areas because we are just feeding predators?
You actually prove my point for me with this. If the deer are so stressed by humans, why are they freely walking into towns and back yards in other areas as well?
Wintering areas are critical IMO, but simply hiking in these areas is not the determining factor hear! :twocents:
Post by: huntnphool on September 28, 2023, 01:10:32 PM
Snowmobiles are a different story.So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...
Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.
And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses? :rolleyes:
Agreed, motorcycles, quads, bicycles etc as well.
Post by: baker5150 on September 28, 2023, 01:29:57 PM
Snowmobiles are a different story.So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...
Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.
And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses? :rolleyes:
Agreed, motorcycles, quads, bicycles etc as well.
I'd add off-leash dogs as well.
I also don't see how "town deer" are in any way a good thing. Safety or feed, either way it's not sustainable, nor will it lead to healthy, growing deer herd.
Centralized herds end up inbred and diseased.
Manage winter range properly, That includes both human, and predator control.
It's not hard, people just need to put herd health above their own self interests.
Post by: LDennis24 on September 28, 2023, 01:35:31 PM
Post by: huntnphool on September 28, 2023, 01:59:42 PM
I only got involved in this thread because I don't understand how suddenly everyone seems to be against wintering areas for wildlife, when if you jump on a thread about shed hunting everyone screams about anybody going into the area at all because the animals will be stressed by human presence. What is with that? :dunno:
Don’t get it twisted, nobody said they were against wintering areas for wildlife.
Post by: timberfaller on September 28, 2023, 02:15:06 PM
If you think cats are afraid of humans, don't live in the Methow, you'll be in for a big surprise!! Jingles sent a picture just the other day, "guess whats in my backyard?" Now if you know Jingles and where he lives, I've made my point! Us "former locals" can give numerous accounts of "ally cats" :chuckle:
Valley living hint 1: If you have a open barn, look before you enter during winter months! Especially if you have "pets".
Number 2: IF you have kids waiting to catch the school bus, KEEP a close eye on them and for movement around them. Especially near town!
Post by: Kascade_Killer on September 28, 2023, 05:54:03 PM
The Kalispell tribe's Cougar Bio, Bart George, was on The Broadside podcast this week and talks quite a bit about how cats in our state, other than those removed for depredation, have very little negative interaction with humans since the outlawing of hound hunting. This has resulted in generations of cats who do not associate humans with threat. So it would seem to me leaving the area open to humans or not, the herds will still be impacted by cats. Wolves seem to have a bigger buffer between them and humans from what I can tell.
Would recommend the listen: https://elliottoutdoorgear.podbean.com/ (https://elliottoutdoorgear.podbean.com/)
Can vouch to this 2014 we shot a cougar on a bluff in the cascades at less then
15ft after it stalked us in the buck brush then stood up on its hind legs swiped its paws (sub 5ft) and growled. I wish I was lying… at 14 years old there were definitely poop stains in my shorts.
Will never forget it.
Post by: bigmacc on September 28, 2023, 05:56:11 PM
Interesting debate! Quick thought, and I think the former "locals" posting here will back me up. Since the deer number have gotten so low, winter comes along, a lot of deer wind up being "town deer"(most likely the bigger percentage of the herd), if they aren't on "Deer Hill". WHO shows up when this occurs??? Any guess's?? :chuckle:👍Yep, me and ole W.F killed one under his house one year and he killed one in the old barn about 4 years later. When he and his wife were running Macs old ranch up in the north valley back in the 70,s into the 90,s. Seen one one year perched on a log up by the cemetery in Winthrop in someone’s driveway back in the mid 80,s. Heck I remember them finding a bunch of cached deer and dogs under the bridge in town! If I remember right they got that cat also. :dunno: for sure. Yep, cats are scary, one of the only animals we got in the valley that will hunt a human as well as deer…… we’ll, it used to be the only one…:bash: :bash: :bash:
If you think cats are afraid of humans, don't live in the Methow, you'll be in for a big surprise!! Jingles sent a picture just the other day, "guess whats in my backyard?" Now if you know Jingles and where he lives, I've made my point! Us "former locals" can give numerous accounts of "ally cats" :chuckle:
Valley living hint 1: If you have a open barn, look before you enter during winter months! Especially if you have "pets".
Number 2: IF you have kids waiting to catch the school bus, KEEP a close eye on them and for movement around them. Especially near town!
Post by: bigmacc on September 28, 2023, 07:51:57 PM
I only got involved in this thread because I don't understand how suddenly everyone seems to be against wintering areas for wildlife, when if you jump on a thread about shed hunting everyone screams about anybody going into the area at all because the animals will be stressed by human presence. What is with that? :dunno:I can only speak for myself but I’m for a closer of wintering grounds during harsh winters. Like I said, those couple months in the dead of winter during certain years can be hell on the herd. I also think there needs to be a more diversified approach (for lack of a better word) if they(WDFW) are serious about wanting to improve deer numbers. Shutting down doe permits for awhile is a start and as said, a more aggressive approach at predator management. I would bet if all 3 were implemented, no doe harvest for 5 years, cut cougar and bear numbers by 30-40 percent and create a “sanctuary area” during December and January during harsh winters. For me anyway, I think we’d see a significant increase in herd numbers in 5-8 years. All user groups would have to give a little. The winter recreationalists would loose some access, hunters would loose their doe tags and predators would be thinned.
I didn’t mention wolves being thinned because I doubt that they are going to do anything about wolf populations in the valley, yet. Could that be used as a compromise from hunters? Who knows but for now I’d sure take a healthy reduction in cats and bears as that compromise. Bottom line, a healthy herd with growing numbers is good for everyone, hunters AND their beloved wolf………. I don’t want to loose our hunting in this valley and I want the herd to grow and be healthy for future generations to hunt, I have better ideas but WDFW doesn’t want to hear them, trust me🤣😆🤣
Post by: wolfbait on September 28, 2023, 09:09:57 PM
I only got involved in this thread because I don't understand how suddenly everyone seems to be against wintering areas for wildlife, when if you jump on a thread about shed hunting everyone screams about anybody going into the area at all because the animals will be stressed by human presence. What is with that? :dunno:I can only speak for myself but I’m for a closer of wintering grounds during harsh winters. Like I said, those couple months in the dead of winter during certain years can be hell on the herd. I also think there needs to be a more diversified approach (for lack of a better word) if they(WDFW) are serious about wanting to improve deer numbers. Shutting down doe permits for awhile is a start and as said, a more aggressive approach at predator management. I would bet if all 3 were implemented, no doe harvest for 5 years, cut cougar and bear numbers by 30-40 percent and create a “sanctuary area” during December and January during harsh winters. For me anyway, I think we’d see a significant increase in herd numbers in 5-8 years. All user groups would have to give a little. The winter recreationalists would loose some access, hunters would loose their doe tags and predators would be thinned.
I didn’t mention wolves being thinned because I doubt that they are going to do anything about wolf populations in the valley, yet. Could that be used as a compromise from hunters? Who knows but for now I’d sure take a healthy reduction in cats and bears as that compromise. Bottom line, a healthy herd with growing numbers is good for everyone, hunters AND their beloved wolf………. I don’t want to loose our hunting in this valley and I want the herd to grow and be healthy for future generations to hunt, I have better ideas but WDFW doesn’t want to hear them, trust me🤣😆🤣
That closure would be Twisp, Winthrop and the river bottoms-2008 we fed over a hundred head with our broncs, last winter we had 23 at the most and those 23 bounced back and forth from town when the wolves come through. On a good saddle horse I can ride to town cross country in 15 minutes.
Remember what the wolves did to the Lolo elk herd, or the Yellowstone.
What the article that start this thread along with WDFW did was throw out the emotional hook. They gave the illusion that they actually gave a dam about the deer, but their actions of the present and past prove them liars. They made the closure about helping the deer, it's a joke on those who already know the score, and for those who know nothing, it gives them hope.
It creates a great discussion on how to save the deer herds, but nothing will change for the deer, they will still be run through the predator slaughter house, and WDFW will continue to issue doe permits and have their usual deer season till there are no deer left to hunt.
My question would be, what's the next closure and the BS reasoning behind it? How much of a closure will they need to save the grizzly bears?
We were watching some home movies the other night of the 50's and 60's and the huge deer herds. The Methow will never see deer like that agin, those days disappeared with the Game Department.
Post by: timberfaller on September 28, 2023, 09:24:20 PM
Speak no sooner and ka-boom! Seen this today, came up on my phone! Hint: they don't care about YOUR input!
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/should-grizzlies-return-to-was-north-cascades-the-feds-want-your-input/
Post by: huntnphool on September 28, 2023, 09:31:29 PM
I only got involved in this thread because I don't understand how suddenly everyone seems to be against wintering areas for wildlife, when if you jump on a thread about shed hunting everyone screams about anybody going into the area at all because the animals will be stressed by human presence. What is with that? :dunno:I can only speak for myself but I’m for a closer of wintering grounds during harsh winters. Like I said, those couple months in the dead of winter during certain years can be hell on the herd. I also think there needs to be a more diversified approach (for lack of a better word) if they(WDFW) are serious about wanting to improve deer numbers. Shutting down doe permits for awhile is a start and as said, a more aggressive approach at predator management. I would bet if all 3 were implemented, no doe harvest for 5 years, cut cougar and bear numbers by 30-40 percent and create a “sanctuary area” during December and January during harsh winters. For me anyway, I think we’d see a significant increase in herd numbers in 5-8 years. All user groups would have to give a little. The winter recreationalists would loose some access, hunters would loose their doe tags and predators would be thinned.
I didn’t mention wolves being thinned because I doubt that they are going to do anything about wolf populations in the valley, yet. Could that be used as a compromise from hunters? Who knows but for now I’d sure take a healthy reduction in cats and bears as that compromise. Bottom line, a healthy herd with growing numbers is good for everyone, hunters AND their beloved wolf………. I don’t want to loose our hunting in this valley and I want the herd to grow and be healthy for future generations to hunt, I have better ideas but WDFW doesn’t want to hear them, trust me🤣😆🤣
That closure would be Twisp, Winthrop and the river bottoms-2008 we fed over a hundred head with our broncs, last winter we had 23 at the most and those 23 bounced back and forth from town when the wolves come through. On a good saddle horse I can ride to town cross country in 15 minutes.
Remember what the wolves did to the Lolo elk herd, or the Yellowstone.
What the article that start this thread along with WDFW did was throw out the emotional hook. They gave the illusion that they actually gave a dam about the deer, but their actions of the present and past prove them liars. They made the closure about helping the deer, it's a joke on those who already know the score, and for those who know nothing, it gives them hope.
It creates a great discussion on how to save the deer herds, but nothing will change for the deer, they will still be run through the predator slaughter house, and WDFW will continue to issue doe permits and have their usual deer season till there are no deer left to hunt.
My question would be, what's the next closure and the BS reasoning behind it? How much of a closure will they need to save the grizzly bears?
We were watching some home movies the other night of the 50's and 60's and the huge deer herds. The Methow will never see deer like that agin, those days disappeared with the Game Department.
And the creation of the Wildlife Dept!
Post by: elksnout on September 28, 2023, 09:51:42 PM
elksnout
Post by: wolfbait on September 28, 2023, 10:00:23 PM
:tup: for bigmacc and wolfbait!
Speak no sooner and ka-boom! Seen this today, came up on my phone! Hint: they don't care about YOUR input!
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/should-grizzlies-return-to-was-north-cascades-the-feds-want-your-input/
Bears like wolves head for home when they are relocated, you could confirm this if you ask WDFW about their grizzly bear releases up the Chewuch. If they were honest with you, they would tell you that the last griz they had radio contact with was back in British Columbia. ;)
Post by: MADMAX on September 28, 2023, 10:29:10 PM
:tup: for bigmacc and wolfbait!
Speak no sooner and ka-boom! Seen this today, came up on my phone! Hint: they don't care about YOUR input!
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/should-grizzlies-return-to-was-north-cascades-the-feds-want-your-input/
I hope everyone submits their concerns or support
Bear spray stock would be a good investment for your portfolio 😳
Post by: Scruffy on September 29, 2023, 02:12:37 AM
:tup: for bigmacc and wolfbait!
Speak no sooner and ka-boom! Seen this today, came up on my phone! Hint: they don't care about YOUR input!
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/should-grizzlies-return-to-was-north-cascades-the-feds-want-your-input/
They had meetings in Darrington about grizzly reintroduction around 2014 I think it was. They wanted to place them in the Glacier Peak area in the wilderness. Most of town was there and about ran the Bio's out of town. Now it seems they want to "ask" again and will keep asking until they get the answer they want. Please click the link and leave your comment. This is the last thing any deer population needs is another predator.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on September 29, 2023, 05:51:02 AM
Post by: boneaddict on September 29, 2023, 08:09:01 AM
Just another agenda piece, its never been about mule deer
Post by: buckfvr on September 29, 2023, 08:39:00 AM
This whole grizz thing is as phony as it gets. Dump them here, they go north and probably get shot. Take them out of Yellowstone ecosystem to keep those numbers below the threshold agreed upon for hunting.
People have ruined the Methow and will continue to in the name of making it a better place. :twocents:
Post by: aaronoto on September 29, 2023, 10:26:59 AM
The tree hugger groups are relentless in their desire to have Grizzlies there. If only our hunting groups had as much persistence.
And they organize people from all over the US to submit comments in favor of.
Post by: wolfbait on September 29, 2023, 10:42:46 AM
So as much as grizz wanders, and they havent been hunted or otherwise deterred from entering washington, why are so few acknowledged as here ? Thats a question most of us know the answer to.
This whole grizz thing is as phony as it gets. Dump them here, they go north and probably get shot. Take them out of Yellowstone ecosystem to keep those numbers below the threshold agreed upon for hunting.
People have ruined the Methow and will continue to in the name of making it a better place. :twocents:
Odd thing is that those people who thought the wolves were a great idea, don't have the same feelings for the big bears, they don't want them in the Valley. Little do they know the release and discover has been in progress for many years.
The same thing that happened with the wolves will happen with the griz agenda, only certain ones will get their info published, and of course we will probably have the CNW crew here on H-W fighting for the griz same as they did for wolves. Small groups who are entitled to make the most noise in favor of another predator agenda. The frauds who run wdfw will be front and center with their line of BS, followed by the rest of the fake environmentalists and their lackeys on hunting site such as this.
For over 50 years we have seen the occasional griz in the Valley in various areas, they don't stay.
The prey base we have now can't even support the predators we now have, skinny cougars attacking livestock and people seems to becoming the norm along with town cougars summer and winter.
Last week we got a flyer in the mail ask to do a survey on what we do with out garbage etc., do to black bears. It would be the perfect survey for griz, and my thoughts are it was meant for those bigger bears.
Bear spray comes in many different calibers, just like wolf spray. ;)
That was already a flash in the pan. They tried to ban horses from the Pasayten in the name of grizz bear recovery. I don't remember the years exactly but it was an Al Gore project. The back country horseman succeeded in their opposition of it. I'm sure they will try again. Grizz bears are already in the Valley, and if the country can hold them it is.
Just another agenda piece, its never been about mule deer
:yeah:
Your Dad was a big part of that, I talk to him quite a bit about it back when we were chasing wolves in the Valley.
Post by: bigmacc on September 29, 2023, 11:07:15 AM
:yeah: phool. The set back and the reduction of the once largest migrating mule deer herd in the country started when the Game Department became the WDFW. At that point it became a political tool of the state and its agendas. It really is that simple and we are all witness to it. If we still had a Game department you’d still see 100 deer a day in the Methow and would still bump into a bear or cougar now and then and think it was cool when you did. Make no mistake, there are agendas at play, why else would they be coddling predators and pretty much blaming a plethora of other things on herd reduction and not mentioning any thing about the predators. I’m not naive to think that encroachment, houses, fires and winters don’t effect deer numbers but I also am not naive to the point that exploding cat and bear populations along with another apex predator (wolf) arnt putting a serious dent in this herd 24/7/365. We’ve seen the carcasses, we’ve seen the fawn graveyards in the thickets and we’ve seen the half buried/half eaten cat kills and we’re seeing a HELL of a lot more than we did 20 years ago, by a long, long shot! Let alone what we’d run into 30, 40 or 50 years ago. You might have stumbled onto a carcass here or there for sure, some may have had a bullet hole in it or an arrow but it was pretty rare to run into a true predator kill.I only got involved in this thread because I don't understand how suddenly everyone seems to be against wintering areas for wildlife, when if you jump on a thread about shed hunting everyone screams about anybody going into the area at all because the animals will be stressed by human presence. What is with that? :dunno:I can only speak for myself but I’m for a closer of wintering grounds during harsh winters. Like I said, those couple months in the dead of winter during certain years can be hell on the herd. I also think there needs to be a more diversified approach (for lack of a better word) if they(WDFW) are serious about wanting to improve deer numbers. Shutting down doe permits for awhile is a start and as said, a more aggressive approach at predator management. I would bet if all 3 were implemented, no doe harvest for 5 years, cut cougar and bear numbers by 30-40 percent and create a “sanctuary area” during December and January during harsh winters. For me anyway, I think we’d see a significant increase in herd numbers in 5-8 years. All user groups would have to give a little. The winter recreationalists would loose some access, hunters would loose their doe tags and predators would be thinned.
I didn’t mention wolves being thinned because I doubt that they are going to do anything about wolf populations in the valley, yet. Could that be used as a compromise from hunters? Who knows but for now I’d sure take a healthy reduction in cats and bears as that compromise. Bottom line, a healthy herd with growing numbers is good for everyone, hunters AND their beloved wolf………. I don’t want to loose our hunting in this valley and I want the herd to grow and be healthy for future generations to hunt, I have better ideas but WDFW doesn’t want to hear them, trust me🤣😆🤣
That closure would be Twisp, Winthrop and the river bottoms-2008 we fed over a hundred head with our broncs, last winter we had 23 at the most and those 23 bounced back and forth from town when the wolves come through. On a good saddle horse I can ride to town cross country in 15 minutes.
Remember what the wolves did to the Lolo elk herd, or the Yellowstone.
What the article that start this thread along with WDFW did was throw out the emotional hook. They gave the illusion that they actually gave a dam about the deer, but their actions of the present and past prove them liars. They made the closure about helping the deer, it's a joke on those who already know the score, and for those who know nothing, it gives them hope.
It creates a great discussion on how to save the deer herds, but nothing will change for the deer, they will still be run through the predator slaughter house, and WDFW will continue to issue doe permits and have their usual deer season till there are no deer left to hunt.
My question would be, what's the next closure and the BS reasoning behind it? How much of a closure will they need to save the grizzly bears?
We were watching some home movies the other night of the 50's and 60's and the huge deer herds. The Methow will never see deer like that agin, those days disappeared with the Game Department.
And the creation of the Wildlife Dept!
Post by: timberfaller on September 29, 2023, 11:08:03 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-admin-moves-unleash-apex-predator-near-rural-community
These IDIOTS think WE can "co-exist" with Grizzly's!! HOW dumb does one get!???
Post by: boneaddict on September 29, 2023, 11:43:20 AM
The catastrophic fires will help with feed (lightbulb)
You have a complete change of attitude when hunting where there are Grizz.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on September 29, 2023, 12:08:50 PM
Post by: mountainman on September 29, 2023, 12:23:18 PM
Especially when your out there with a bowAnd a G20👍
Post by: LDennis24 on September 29, 2023, 12:34:25 PM
You know, for grizzly encounters
Post by: Dan-o on September 29, 2023, 02:47:13 PM
There are probably about a dozen in the cascades as a high estimate now. I'll guestimate like the WDFW does mule deer. LOL I cant even imagine 200 of them. LOL once again, not following science but Disney.
The catastrophic fires will help with feed (lightbulb)
You have a complete change of attitude when hunting where there are Grizz.
I saw that one of the plan options called for getting to a population of 200 Grizzlies in the north Cascades.....
That seems like a crazy large number of Grizzlies for that area, even if you're a full blown Grizzly reintroduction fan.
Post by: LDennis24 on September 29, 2023, 03:05:01 PM
Post by: MADMAX on September 29, 2023, 03:22:37 PM
Post by: bigmacc on September 29, 2023, 03:56:45 PM
Post by: bigmacc on September 29, 2023, 04:04:07 PM
There are probably about a dozen in the cascades as a high estimate now. I'll guestimate like the WDFW does mule deer. LOL I cant even imagine 200 of them. LOL once again, not following science but Disney.I agree bone, I’ve seen one up that drainage I’ve told you of up north and I’ve seen one way up the Chewuch within a rocks throw of the border, well back when I had a good arm. Point being, I like you know darn well they’ve been stumbling around up north, back and forth for decades. Let them be! Why the hell do you need to bring in semi loads of them! Like I said, when they became the WDFW they became a tool for the democrat agendas, Our Governor is probably volunteering to drive the semi for ole Joe to get those S.OB,s in that turf asap. :bash: :bash: :bash:
The catastrophic fires will help with feed (lightbulb)
You have a complete change of attitude when hunting where there are Grizz.
Post by: wolfbait on September 29, 2023, 04:31:37 PM
There are probably about a dozen in the cascades as a high estimate now. I'll guestimate like the WDFW does mule deer. LOL I cant even imagine 200 of them. LOL once again, not following science but Disney.I agree bone, I’ve seen one up that drainage I’ve told you of up north and I’ve seen one way up the Chewuch within a rocks throw of the border, well back when I had a good arm. Point being, I like you know darn well they’ve been stumbling around up north, back and forth for decades. Let them be! Why the hell do you need to bring in semi loads of them! Like I said, when they became the WDFW they became a tool for the democrat agendas, Our Governor is probably volunteering to drive the semi for ole Joe to get those S.OB,s in that turf asap. :bash: :bash: :bash:
The catastrophic fires will help with feed (lightbulb)
You have a complete change of attitude when hunting where there are Grizz.
There could be 2 grizz in the whole NC, and they will still shut down a lot of country for recovery, and like the wolves , it's really not that they care about these predators anymore than they do deer, they are just tools to shut down public lands, destroying hunting. There has always been a bigger agenda in the background.
Hunters as we have seen just on here, can't come together to fight any of this, some will think a few grizz are fine just like they did with the wolves, it's a dang shame. If the outdoorsy people would all git their chit together and realize that what they refuse to fight will eventually end all recreation on public lands, maybe then we would have a chance at stopping this BS. :twocents:
Post by: bigmacc on September 29, 2023, 06:26:58 PM
I agree wolfbait.There are probably about a dozen in the cascades as a high estimate now. I'll guestimate like the WDFW does mule deer. LOL I cant even imagine 200 of them. LOL once again, not following science but Disney.I agree bone, I’ve seen one up that drainage I’ve told you of up north and I’ve seen one way up the Chewuch within a rocks throw of the border, well back when I had a good arm. Point being, I like you know darn well they’ve been stumbling around up north, back and forth for decades. Let them be! Why the hell do you need to bring in semi loads of them! Like I said, when they became the WDFW they became a tool for the democrat agendas, Our Governor is probably volunteering to drive the semi for ole Joe to get those S.OB,s in that turf asap. :bash: :bash: :bash:
The catastrophic fires will help with feed (lightbulb)
You have a complete change of attitude when hunting where there are Grizz.
There could be 2 grizz in the whole NC, and they will still shut down a lot of country for recovery, and like the wolves , it's really not that they care about these predators anymore than they do deer, they are just tools to shut down public lands, destroying hunting. There has always been a bigger agenda in the background.
Hunters as we have seen just on here, can't come together to fight any of this, some will think a few grizz are fine just like they did with the wolves, it's a dang shame. If the outdoorsy people would all git their chit together and realize that what they refuse to fight will eventually end all recreation on public lands, maybe then we would have a chance at stopping this BS. :twocents:
Post by: mountainman on September 29, 2023, 07:25:39 PM
Post by: mountainman on September 30, 2023, 02:00:40 AM
https://www.krem.com/article/news/local/grizzly-bear-captured-stevens-county-killing-chickens/293-10260959-718e-4a5c-ad55-0546d94205be
Post by: wolfbait on September 30, 2023, 05:25:04 AM
Quick side direct-Grizzly trapped in Colville…
https://www.krem.com/article/news/local/grizzly-bear-captured-stevens-county-killing-chickens/293-10260959-718e-4a5c-ad55-0546d94205be
bears gota eat something.....
https://cowboystatedaily.com/2023/09/29/bad-year-for-montana-grizzly-bears-continues-as-yet-another-is-shot/?utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=campaign&_kx=03QhdhzlvjEwc5SAgf0fx06umFkyTHl9Uc97HTi5MXeNGGMZDqRLeqPZMZUnznjw.UXPtrV
I think it was in the 90's one of our county commissioners caught WDFW releasing grizzly bears up on the Loup Loup summit. WDFW employee told the commissioner it was way above his pay grade when ask what he was doing, the WDFW didn't know he was speaking to a county commissioner.
Post by: highcountry_hunter on September 30, 2023, 06:55:32 AM
Did the commissioner make this front page news?Quick side direct-Grizzly trapped in Colville…
https://www.krem.com/article/news/local/grizzly-bear-captured-stevens-county-killing-chickens/293-10260959-718e-4a5c-ad55-0546d94205be
bears gota eat something.....
https://cowboystatedaily.com/2023/09/29/bad-year-for-montana-grizzly-bears-continues-as-yet-another-is-shot/?utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=campaign&_kx=03QhdhzlvjEwc5SAgf0fx06umFkyTHl9Uc97HTi5MXeNGGMZDqRLeqPZMZUnznjw.UXPtrV
I think it was in the 90's one of our county commissioners caught WDFW releasing grizzly bears up on the Loup Loup summit. WDFW employee told the commissioner it was way above his pay grade when ask what he was doing, the WDFW didn't know he was speaking to a county commissioner.
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Post by: timberfaller on September 30, 2023, 10:50:14 AM
Know a former USFS employee who was going up on a weekend to get firewood and came upon a dark "green" pickup with exempt plate on it. Only pickups that color were WDFW. Followed behind it for a while until it stopped. Driver came back and told him to leave or get arrested. He noticed the back was full of "boxes" covered with a tarp. Being the fella he is, he turned around and left. Not long afterwards, guess what was recorded being sighted??? Yep, Wolves.
When the Salmon listing started, a whole lot of shenanigans took place!! Especially up Gold Creek and Pangborn Air field! :bash: :bash:
Post by: wolfbait on September 30, 2023, 12:35:39 PM
A lot of "things" have happened in the Methow over the decades!! Hey, wolfbait, how's those "grizzly's" doing behind Sun Mt.!?? :chuckle:
Know a former USFS employee who was going up on a weekend to get firewood and came upon a dark "green" pickup with exempt plate on it. Only pickups that color were WDFW. Followed behind it for a while until it stopped. Driver came back and told him to leave or get arrested. He noticed the back was full of "boxes" covered with a tarp. Being the fella he is, he turned around and left. Not long afterwards, guess what was recorded being sighted??? Yep, Wolves.
When the Salmon listing started, a whole lot of shenanigans took place!! Especially up Gold Creek and Pangborn Air field! :bash: :bash:
99% sighting of a grizzly bear, no hair, not scat, no tracks. :chuckle: They sure blew that one all to hell, really showed their true colors.
I know the guy you are talking about with the wolf release story, also know along about that same time frame the state patrol closing off certain roads up the Twisp River when WDFW would take their horse trailers up, with no horses. Yep not a lot of trust of WDF$Predators.
Post by: bigmacc on September 30, 2023, 02:44:08 PM
My dad and I reported a wolf sighting up Boulder in December back in the 90,s, including video! The dang thing dropped down an embankment on to the road and stared us down from about 20 yards or so. We were letting my lab out to pee when it came down onto the road. My black lab weighed in at 110lbs, he flew back to the truck with his tail between his legs, that “big, black, coyote” dwarfed that 100 plus pound lab! Yep, that’s what they said it was when we showed the video. It was grainy and blurry but it was obvious it was no coyote. I know what a coyote looks like, even a big coyote and my dad was practically raised for half his boyhood life in Alaska and had seen hundreds of wolves.A lot of "things" have happened in the Methow over the decades!! Hey, wolfbait, how's those "grizzly's" doing behind Sun Mt.!?? :chuckle:
Know a former USFS employee who was going up on a weekend to get firewood and came upon a dark "green" pickup with exempt plate on it. Only pickups that color were WDFW. Followed behind it for a while until it stopped. Driver came back and told him to leave or get arrested. He noticed the back was full of "boxes" covered with a tarp. Being the fella he is, he turned around and left. Not long afterwards, guess what was recorded being sighted??? Yep, Wolves.
When the Salmon listing started, a whole lot of shenanigans took place!! Especially up Gold Creek and Pangborn Air field! :bash: :bash:
99% sighting of a grizzly bear, no hair, not scat, no tracks. :chuckle: They sure blew that one all to hell, really showed their true colors.
I know the guy you are talking about with the wolf release story, also know along about that same time frame the state patrol closing off certain roads up the Twisp River when WDFW would take their horse trailers up, with no horses. Yep not a lot of trust of WDF$Predators.
Post by: wolfbait on September 30, 2023, 07:58:12 PM
My dad and I reported a wolf sighting up Boulder in December back in the 90,s, including video! The dang thing dropped down an embankment on to the road and stared us down from about 20 yards or so. We were letting my lab out to pee when it came down onto the road. My black lab weighed in at 110lbs, he flew back to the truck with his tail between his legs, that “big, black, coyote” dwarfed that 100 plus pound lab! Yep, that’s what they said it was when we showed the video. It was grainy and blurry but it was obvious it was no coyote. I know what a coyote looks like, even a big coyote and my dad was practically raised for half his boyhood life in Alaska and had seen hundreds of wolves.A lot of "things" have happened in the Methow over the decades!! Hey, wolfbait, how's those "grizzly's" doing behind Sun Mt.!?? :chuckle:
Know a former USFS employee who was going up on a weekend to get firewood and came upon a dark "green" pickup with exempt plate on it. Only pickups that color were WDFW. Followed behind it for a while until it stopped. Driver came back and told him to leave or get arrested. He noticed the back was full of "boxes" covered with a tarp. Being the fella he is, he turned around and left. Not long afterwards, guess what was recorded being sighted??? Yep, Wolves.
When the Salmon listing started, a whole lot of shenanigans took place!! Especially up Gold Creek and Pangborn Air field! :bash: :bash:
99% sighting of a grizzly bear, no hair, not scat, no tracks. :chuckle: They sure blew that one all to hell, really showed their true colors.
I know the guy you are talking about with the wolf release story, also know along about that same time frame the state patrol closing off certain roads up the Twisp River when WDFW would take their horse trailers up, with no horses. Yep not a lot of trust of WDF$Predators.
We ran into wolves up the 8 mile in the early 90's, and were told to shut up about what we had seen.
Post by: wolfbait on October 01, 2023, 06:18:11 PM
Were gonna have a “rendavoue” this year. Would love to have you. Would love to have bone, would love to have timberfaller. And of course our favorite Warden. I have one, he’s invited. The best Phillys on a flat top. Stories of the Methow, stories of hunting camps gone by.😢My dad and I reported a wolf sighting up Boulder in December back in the 90,s, including video! The dang thing dropped down an embankment on to the road and stared us down from about 20 yards or so. We were letting my lab out to pee when it came down onto the road. My black lab weighed in at 110lbs, he flew back to the truck with his tail between his legs, that “big, black, coyote” dwarfed that 100 plus pound lab! Yep, that’s what they said it was when we showed the video. It was grainy and blurry but it was obvious it was no coyote. I know what a coyote looks like, even a big coyote and my dad was practically raised for half his boyhood life in Alaska and had seen hundreds of wolves.A lot of "things" have happened in the Methow over the decades!! Hey, wolfbait, how's those "grizzly's" doing behind Sun Mt.!?? :chuckle:
Know a former USFS employee who was going up on a weekend to get firewood and came upon a dark "green" pickup with exempt plate on it. Only pickups that color were WDFW. Followed behind it for a while until it stopped. Driver came back and told him to leave or get arrested. He noticed the back was full of "boxes" covered with a tarp. Being the fella he is, he turned around and left. Not long afterwards, guess what was recorded being sighted??? Yep, Wolves.
When the Salmon listing started, a whole lot of shenanigans took place!! Especially up Gold Creek and Pangborn Air field! :bash: :bash:
99% sighting of a grizzly bear, no hair, not scat, no tracks. :chuckle: They sure blew that one all to hell, really showed their true colors.
I know the guy you are talking about with the wolf release story, also know along about that same time frame the state patrol closing off certain roads up the Twisp River when WDFW would take their horse trailers up, with no horses. Yep not a lot of trust of WDF$Predators.
We ran into wolves up the 8 mile in the early 90's, and were told to shut up about what we had seen.
I will come for sure, PM me the details!
Post by: bugs n bones on October 01, 2023, 07:26:48 PM
100 percent correct !There are probably about a dozen in the cascades as a high estimate now. I'll guestimate like the WDFW does mule deer. LOL I cant even imagine 200 of them. LOL once again, not following science but Disney.I agree bone, I’ve seen one up that drainage I’ve told you of up north and I’ve seen one way up the Chewuch within a rocks throw of the border, well back when I had a good arm. Point being, I like you know darn well they’ve been stumbling around up north, back and forth for decades. Let them be! Why the hell do you need to bring in semi loads of them! Like I said, when they became the WDFW they became a tool for the democrat agendas, Our Governor is probably volunteering to drive the semi for ole Joe to get those S.OB,s in that turf asap. :bash: :bash: :bash:
The catastrophic fires will help with feed (lightbulb)
You have a complete change of attitude when hunting where there are Grizz.
There could be 2 grizz in the whole NC, and they will still shut down a lot of country for recovery, and like the wolves , it's really not that they care about these predators anymore than they do deer, they are just tools to shut down public lands, destroying hunting. There has always been a bigger agenda in the background.
Hunters as we have seen just on here, can't come together to fight any of this, some will think a few grizz are fine just like they did with the wolves, it's a dang shame. If the outdoorsy people would all git their chit together and realize that what they refuse to fight will eventually end all recreation on public lands, maybe then we would have a chance at stopping this BS. :twocents:
Post by: timberfaller on October 02, 2023, 09:54:28 AM
Post by: Dave Workman on October 09, 2023, 07:31:36 PM
The comment about mule deer being important because they're the primary food source for wolves and lions is telling
BINGO! The WDFW seems more interested in feeding predators than in providing hunting opportunities for the sportsmen and women who pay their way.
"Mule deer are an important component of the Methow ecosystem. They are primary prey for cougars and wolves, and their carcasses are a major food source for eagles during the winter."
Time to do two things, maybe: Restore hound hunting for cougars and bears. Delist wolves in this state and put a season on them.
And maybe a third thing, which is going to light some fuses I am sure: Put restrictions on motorbikes and snowmobiles during late fall and winter months in critical deer habitat.
Post by: bigmacc on October 09, 2023, 08:11:53 PM
:yeah:👍👍The comment about mule deer being important because they're the primary food source for wolves and lions is telling
BINGO! The WDFW seems more interested in feeding predators than in providing hunting opportunities for the sportsmen and women who pay their way.
"Mule deer are an important component of the Methow ecosystem. They are primary prey for cougars and wolves, and their carcasses are a major food source for eagles during the winter."
Time to do two things, maybe: Restore hound hunting for cougars and bears. Delist wolves in this state and put a season on them.
And maybe a third thing, which is going to light some fuses I am sure: Put restrictions on motorbikes and snowmobiles during late fall and winter months in critical deer habitat.
I love every bit of what you said!
As far as managing this particular herd for predators instead of hunters, yep, been saying it for years, even know some other folks who 100 percent agree!!!!!
Post by: Scruffy on October 09, 2023, 11:57:16 PM
I am not against hound hunting and I understand it is easier to tree one, but I just don't see how legalizing hounds will produce that many more cougar kills to make a difference. Just my :twocents:
Post by: highcountry_hunter on October 10, 2023, 03:22:19 AM
I would like to ask, everyone wants to bring back hounds like that is the answer. How many guys are going run out and buy dogs, train them to go hunt 1 cougar per year? That is a big and timely investment. Everyone can buy a cougar tag and hunt them from Sept to April and yet only a few people actually go out to hunt cougar specifically. Most are taken while another game specie while calling. I think we hunters need to get more active and hunt predators that we can to help the deer herds and reduce the number of predators.Umm don’t you think a hound hunter would thoroughly enjoy taking other people out to get a cat aswell?
I am not against hound hunting and I understand it is easier to tree one, but I just don't see how legalizing hounds will produce that many more cougar kills to make a difference. Just my :twocents:
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Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 10, 2023, 05:02:52 AM
I would like to ask, everyone wants to bring back hounds like that is the answer. How many guys are going run out and buy dogs, train them to go hunt 1 cougar per year? That is a big and timely investment. Everyone can buy a cougar tag and hunt them from Sept to April and yet only a few people actually go out to hunt cougar specifically. Most are taken while another game specie while calling. I think we hunters need to get more active and hunt predators that we can to help the deer herds and reduce the number of predators.Umm don’t you think a hound hunter would thoroughly enjoy taking other people out to get a cat aswell?
I am not against hound hunting and I understand it is easier to tree one, but I just don't see how legalizing hounds will produce that many more cougar kills to make a difference. Just my :twocents:
When a hound hunter has that much involved they either take family and friends out or run a guide buisness
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Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2023, 05:20:48 AM
I would like to ask, everyone wants to bring back hounds like that is the answer. How many guys are going run out and buy dogs, train them to go hunt 1 cougar per year? That is a big and timely investment. Everyone can buy a cougar tag and hunt them from Sept to April and yet only a few people actually go out to hunt cougar specifically. Most are taken while another game specie while calling. I think we hunters need to get more active and hunt predators that we can to help the deer herds and reduce the number of predators.
I am not against hound hunting and I understand it is easier to tree one, but I just don't see how legalizing hounds will produce that many more cougar kills to make a difference. Just my :twocents:
You are correct, it wont.
There are wayyyy more issues involved in herd decline than just predators. For whatever reason the preds. are always folks favorite excuse. :dunno:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 10, 2023, 05:51:08 AM
Post by: 3nails on October 10, 2023, 06:07:43 AM
I would like to ask, everyone wants to bring back hounds like that is the answer. How many guys are going run out and buy dogs, train them to go hunt 1 cougar per year? That is a big and timely investment. Everyone can buy a cougar tag and hunt them from Sept to April and yet only a few people actually go out to hunt cougar specifically. Most are taken while another game specie while calling. I think we hunters need to get more active and hunt predators that we can to help the deer herds and reduce the number of predators.Probably about half the time and money I put into shooting 1 deer per year. :chuckle:
I am not against hound hunting and I understand it is easier to tree one, but I just don't see how legalizing hounds will produce that many more cougar kills to make a difference. Just my :twocents:
Post by: mcrawfordaf on October 10, 2023, 06:08:05 AM
I would like to ask, everyone wants to bring back hounds like that is the answer. How many guys are going run out and buy dogs, train them to go hunt 1 cougar per year? That is a big and timely investment. Everyone can buy a cougar tag and hunt them from Sept to April and yet only a few people actually go out to hunt cougar specifically. Most are taken while another game specie while calling. I think we hunters need to get more active and hunt predators that we can to help the deer herds and reduce the number of predators.
I am not against hound hunting and I understand it is easier to tree one, but I just don't see how legalizing hounds will produce that many more cougar kills to make a difference. Just my :twocents:
You should really give a listen to the Broadside Podcast with Bart George. Boot hunters really just cannot impact the cougar population like dogs can. In other states, areas with troublesome cougar populations have dog running seasons where no harvest takes place. They run the dogs simply to haze the cats back from the area.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2023, 07:01:49 AM
That's because they have the largest year impact on the deer population.
Prove it!
Post by: wolfbait on October 10, 2023, 07:59:54 AM
That's because they have the largest year impact on the deer population.
Prove it!
That's not hard to do at all, look at the Lolo elk herd or the Yellowstone after the illegal introduction of wolves. Do you think the wolves only eat elk?
Post by: buglebrush on October 10, 2023, 08:01:22 AM
I would like to ask, everyone wants to bring back hounds like that is the answer. How many guys are going run out and buy dogs, train them to go hunt 1 cougar per year? That is a big and timely investment. Everyone can buy a cougar tag and hunt them from Sept to April and yet only a few people actually go out to hunt cougar specifically. Most are taken while another game specie while calling. I think we hunters need to get more active and hunt predators that we can to help the deer herds and reduce the number of predators.
I am not against hound hunting and I understand it is easier to tree one, but I just don't see how legalizing hounds will produce that many more cougar kills to make a difference. Just my :twocents:
Every cat hunter I know goes out constantly taking other people. I know many guys who would immediately get dogs if it was legal, and even one hound hunter per gmu would make a huge difference!
Predators are the antis' tool to end otc hunting. Once hunting is draw only recruitment will cease, and it will die. :bash:
Post by: wolfbait on October 10, 2023, 09:30:35 AM
I would like to ask, everyone wants to bring back hounds like that is the answer. How many guys are going run out and buy dogs, train them to go hunt 1 cougar per year? That is a big and timely investment. Everyone can buy a cougar tag and hunt them from Sept to April and yet only a few people actually go out to hunt cougar specifically. Most are taken while another game specie while calling. I think we hunters need to get more active and hunt predators that we can to help the deer herds and reduce the number of predators.
I am not against hound hunting and I understand it is easier to tree one, but I just don't see how legalizing hounds will produce that many more cougar kills to make a difference. Just my :twocents:
Every cat hunter I know goes out constantly taking other people. I know many guys who would immediately get dogs if it was legal, and even one hound hunter per gmu would make a huge difference!
Predators are the antis' tool to end otc hunting. Once hunting is draw only recruitment will cease, and it will die. :bash:
:yeah:
Post by: Mtnwalker on October 10, 2023, 09:43:29 AM
Post by: timberfaller on October 10, 2023, 09:52:43 AM
There is NO compromising or working with these "people"! They are "agenda" driven only, real science is not in play! Know your enemy's!
Post by: 2MANY on October 10, 2023, 10:27:42 AM
You will never change that wiring unless it's with money.
Similar to today's America hating protesters.
They are wired to hate America no matter what the issue or how logical it may be.
Post by: timberfaller on October 10, 2023, 01:20:04 PM
As long as there is grant money to be had and a university to hide out in, they'll just keep being produced!
I see Wally World has started to see the light when it comes to having "degree'd" personal in upper management!! "Skilled" people with just a high school indoctrination, are more desirable! :o
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2023, 03:19:00 PM
That's because they have the largest year impact on the deer population.
Prove it!
That's not hard to do at all, look at the Lolo elk herd or the Yellowstone after the illegal introduction of wolves. Do you think the wolves only eat elk?
Totally diff ecosystems…. Even so, that does not prove the reason todrop of herd quantity.
Go ahead and keep on drinking the wolf-aid, Pretty sure you are kegs worth into it so far.
PS, I’m not say wolves/preds do not play a part……just not as big
Of a role as most claim…… they are an easy blame tool
Post by: mcrawfordaf on October 10, 2023, 03:38:46 PM
That's because they have the largest year impact on the deer population.
Prove it!
That's not hard to do at all, look at the Lolo elk herd or the Yellowstone after the illegal introduction of wolves. Do you think the wolves only eat elk?
Totally diff ecosystems…. Even so, that does not prove the reason todrop of herd quantity.
Go ahead and keep on drinking the wolf-aid, Pretty sure you are kegs worth into it so far.
PS, I’m not say wolves/preds do not play a part……just not as big
Of a role as most claim…… they are an easy blame tool
Of 52 Mule Deer mortalities studied in the Okanogan during the Predator Prey Project - 22 were predation... :twocents:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2023, 04:46:31 PM
I’ll answer your question by throwing the same basic ? Back to you.
Do you think that wolves only eat ungulates?
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2023, 05:07:55 PM
That's because they have the largest year impact on the deer population.
Prove it!
That's not hard to do at all, look at the Lolo elk herd or the Yellowstone after the illegal introduction of wolves. Do you think the wolves only eat elk?
Totally diff ecosystems…. Even so, that does not prove the reason todrop of herd quantity.
Go ahead and keep on drinking the wolf-aid, Pretty sure you are kegs worth into it so far.
PS, I’m not say wolves/preds do not play a part……just not as big
Of a role as most claim…… they are an easy blame tool
Of 52 Mule Deer mortalities studied in the Okanogan during the Predator Prey Project - 22 were predation... :twocents:
Not sure if you argree/disagree with my post?
But it proves my point. Lets do some math.....
So 42% of the study animals were killed by predators, that leaves 58% killed/died by other means. Not the "sky is falling" numbers some would like you to believe.
Why is blackjack a predominant game at gambling casinos? Simple, the odds are in the favor of the house.
The basic odds of winning a hand of blackjack as a player are guess what? 42%
Guess we all need to be playing BJ to get rich. It's working for the predators.
Post by: MtnMuley on October 10, 2023, 06:10:59 PM
Post by: 2MANY on October 10, 2023, 06:24:25 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2023, 06:25:16 PM
Why do you even keep on babbling NOCK? If you don't think predators play a very significant part in the herd health of the Methow Valley ungulates were discussing, then it shows you're absolutely clueless. Have you even spent any time in the hills up here?
Yep clueless, that's me you nailed it. SMH
At least I don't call folks names. Grow up!
Post by: bigmacc on October 10, 2023, 06:38:28 PM
Why do you even keep on babbling NOCK? If you don't think predators play a very significant part in the herd health of the Methow Valley ungulates were discussing, then it shows you're absolutely clueless. Have you even spent any time in the hills up here?On your side Mtn Muley. Some have no clue of this turf. I would imagine he is very educated on his turf but the Methow is being turned into a predator pit. Nock, my door is open, I will bring in at least 1 retired Game Department employee that will shoot you down as far as your “predator “ statement, number one in all our books! If you’d like, I’ll bring in more, we can have a drink👍 and then I’ll bring in more. With respect, you’re way off base! Predators are pounding our herds!!!!
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2023, 06:41:18 PM
2022 harvest in district 6 was 2000ish deer......not included in the aforementioned mortality study.
What happens when those kills are computed into the total mortality?
HUMANS are far and away more threatening to ungulates than predators. Legal kills, poaching, vehicle strikes, habitat encroachment.
Uneducated clueless babbling is over. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2023, 06:48:06 PM
Why do you even keep on babbling NOCK? If you don't think predators play a very significant part in the herd health of the Methow Valley ungulates were discussing, then it shows you're absolutely clueless. Have you even spent any time in the hills up here?On your side Mtn Muley. Some have no clue of this turf. I would imagine he is very educated on his turf but the Methow is being turned into a predator pit. Nock, my door is open, I will bring in at least 1 retired Game Department employee that will shoot you down as far as your “predator “ statement, number one in all our books! If you’d like, I’ll bring in more, we can have a drink👍 and then I’ll bring in more. With respect, you’re way off base! Predators are pounding our herds!!!!
Anytime!
Never said preds are not hurting the population......they simply are not the #1 reason for the decline.
Massive fires have opened up the country for better visibility, Average rifle shooter can knock em down at greater distances now a days, multi season allows way to much pressure, homes going up right and left in prime habitat, lack of logging = loss of better feed, increased human population = more vehicle strikes, etc. etc. I can go round and round with any WDFW employee....heck I believe you are one to call out their worthless management? (the current staff) not old timers. Things are different these days from when they were employed.
Reminds me of an old Hustler cartoon. 2 old guys sitting in a house with the walls covered in trophys. The caption is, "Yep used to be alot of deer in these parts"
I have killed deer in your neck of the woods, and I know you and your family have killed far more than I have up there............WE are both a big part of the problem.
Post by: 2MANY on October 10, 2023, 07:04:45 PM
At least global warming isn't the cause.
Post by: bigmacc on October 10, 2023, 07:07:08 PM
Agree to disagree. Predators will eventually be the demise of hunting in the state of Washington. I will make a gentleman’s bet at any time. Encroachment, human intrusion and whatever else folks want to “throw at the wall and see if it sticks” is absurd. I will March back to the 20,s 30,s and how ever far you want to go back. I’ve been there for some, heard stories of others, met pioneers that have told stories and shared pictures. When predators were kept in check, deer flourished (at least in the Methow), don’t know much about your turf. I know my great grandparents would travel on horseback over into the “Chelan side” from time to time. Grandpa had an old fella out of Brewster he would pack with. They killed many bucks around Domke. Killed many up 25 mile, in fact 1 of the biggest bucks grandpa shot was up there.Why do you even keep on babbling NOCK? If you don't think predators play a very significant part in the herd health of the Methow Valley ungulates were discussing, then it shows you're absolutely clueless. Have you even spent any time in the hills up here?On your side Mtn Muley. Some have no clue of this turf. I would imagine he is very educated on his turf but the Methow is being turned into a predator pit. Nock, my door is open, I will bring in at least 1 retired Game Department employee that will shoot you down as far as your “predator “ statement, number one in all our books! If you’d like, I’ll bring in more, we can have a drink👍 and then I’ll bring in more. With respect, you’re way off base! Predators are pounding our herds!!!!
Anytime!
Never said preds are not hurting the population......they simply are not the #1 reason for the decline.
Reminds me of an old Hustler cartoon. 2 old guys sitting in a house with the walls covered in trophys. The caption is, "Yep used to be alot of deer in these parts"
I have killed deer in your neck of the woods, and I know you and your family have killed far more than I have up there............WE are both a big part of the problem.
Bottom line, it ain’t people. It’s 4 legged predators. We’ve got journals going back to 1917, I can tell you this. Over 50 years there was a couple bears and a couple cougars spotted. Hardly any cached kills or remnants. You don’t even want to know what we’re finding now. Predators, yep, number one 👎
Forgot, let’s throw in wolves and I’m sure you’re hearing about Grizzy introduction?
I’ll take decades of fire, I’ll take bad winters, ill take encroachments of all “sizes”, you start letting predators get out of control AND then adding more in a state that no longer has a “game Department”, like I said, I’ll make a gentleman’s bet right now that predators will destroy our hunting, and it ain’t gonna be by accident!
Post by: Mtnwalker on October 10, 2023, 07:59:25 PM
That's because they have the largest year impact on the deer population.
Prove it!
That's not hard to do at all, look at the Lolo elk herd or the Yellowstone after the illegal introduction of wolves. Do you think the wolves only eat elk?
Totally diff ecosystems…. Even so, that does not prove the reason todrop of herd quantity.
Go ahead and keep on drinking the wolf-aid, Pretty sure you are kegs worth into it so far.
PS, I’m not say wolves/preds do not play a part……just not as big
Of a role as most claim…… they are an easy blame tool
Of 52 Mule Deer mortalities studied in the Okanogan during the Predator Prey Project - 22 were predation... :twocents:
Not sure if you argree/disagree with my post?
But it proves my point. Lets do some math.....
So 42% of the study animals were killed by predators, that leaves 58% killed/died by other means. Not the "sky is falling" numbers some would like you to believe.
Why is blackjack a predominant game at gambling casinos? Simple, the odds are in the favor of the house.
The basic odds of winning a hand of blackjack as a player are guess what? 42%
Guess we all need to be playing BJ to get rich. It's working for the predators.
22 were confirmed by predator type, with another 9 “unknown but likely predation” so more like 59%
Also these were adult collared deer. I’d imagine the number skews way up when you start looking at mortality cause of current year’s fawn and calf crop
Post by: Humptulips on October 10, 2023, 08:21:26 PM
Post by: wolfbait on October 10, 2023, 10:02:08 PM
@wolfbait.
I’ll answer your question by throwing the same basic ? Back to you.
Do you think that wolves only eat ungulates?
NO, they eat about anything they want, including people.
The wolves is what put everything over the edge, without the wolves, and with hound hunting of cougars and bears our deer herds would be in far greater shape. The Game Department proved that year after year.
Who was in charge of your study?
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 11, 2023, 05:55:43 AM
What was the baseline of animals studied?
From WDFW
Total ungulates collared since the study began include:
Species Adult Juvenile
Mule deer* 149 0
White-tailed deer 131 97
Elk 63 20
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 11, 2023, 06:04:31 AM
22 were confirmed by predator type, with another 9 “unknown but likely predation” so more like 59%
Also these were adult collared deer. I’d imagine the number skews way up when you start looking at mortality cause of current year’s fawn and calf crop
[/quote]
"Unknown" means not able to confirm cause of death
"likely"= Assumption...well we all know where that gets ya.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 11, 2023, 06:11:37 AM
For some folks it needs to be science............unless it fits their narrative, then emotion is king. :dunno:
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2023, 07:50:18 AM
One cat eats two deer a week. 10 cats eat 20 deer a week
Zero wolves eat zero deer a week, 100 wolves eat …….
Throw in a few more players such as coyotes, golden eagles, bobcats, bears, grizz bears
Now, extrapolate that out.
Less deer for the two legged variety.
Call it emotion if you want.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 11, 2023, 08:47:27 AM
I do not like the increased predator population anymore than anyone else, but I tend to believe in science and history. Pred/prey have coexisted for a long time. One’s population depends on the other. Too many preds kill too many deer is a problem for the preds, their populations will decrease. Deer populations then increase.
This scenario has been playing out long before man, and yet we still have deer and preds.
Guessing a lot here do not get my point.
PS( someone will respond to this that I sound like an anti, or hugger) sorry but you’re dead wrong. :hello:
“Yep there USED to be a lot of deer in these parts”
Post by: Mtnwalker on October 11, 2023, 09:12:22 AM
The same can be applied to human population expansion in the valley, or any ungulate area. More people means more ungulate death.
I do not like the increased predator population anymore than anyone else, but I tend to believe in science and history. Pred/prey have coexisted for a long time. One’s population depends on the other. Too many preds kill too many deer is a problem for the preds, their populations will decrease. Deer populations then increase.
This scenario has been playing out long before man, and yet we still have deer and preds.
Guessing a lot here do not get my point.
PS( someone will respond to this that I sound like an anti, or hugger) sorry but you’re dead wrong. :hello:
“Yep there USED to be a lot of deer in these parts”
Everybody understands what you're saying, we just disagree with your viewpoint. Your own "science" that you are referencing shows that predation was the majority single factor in adult mule deer mortalities even though the study was designed to illustrate the opposite. The problem with this study is this is only showing mortality cause of existing deer and does not address fawn recruitment or lack thereof. So in an area of predator over-abundance if 8 or 9 out of 10 fawns are gobbled up in the first 60 days of life then your science fails to address that. :twocents:
Post by: Bob33 on October 11, 2023, 09:15:14 AM
The state’s cougar population is estimated at 3,000. WDFW states that a cougar eats a deer every 9 to 12 days. Assuming 20 deer per year per cougar that’s a total of 60,000 deer killed each year.
The state’s black bear population is estimated at 30,000. Black bears are known to be very hard on fawns. Assume half the bears are adult and kill one deer year; that’s another 15,000.
There are maybe 500 wolves in the state. Assume each wolf kills ten deer, that’s another 5,000.
Add coyotes and other predators, and the number of deer killed annually by predators approaches 100,000.
Licensed hunters report annual harvests of around 25,000 deer.
How can predators not be a major factor in the decline of ungulate populations?
Post by: wolfbait on October 11, 2023, 09:18:00 AM
What was the baseline of animals studied?
From WDFW
Total ungulates collared since the study began include:
Species Adult Juvenile
Mule deer* 149 0
White-tailed deer 131 97
Elk 63 20
From WDF&Wolves, should have known, protect predators above all else
Post by: bigmacc on October 11, 2023, 09:33:55 AM
Post by: hunter399 on October 11, 2023, 09:56:25 AM
I'm sure cougars just like all predators are opportunity based .
Example would be a few,grouse, turkey,rabbit,smaller critters, in-between big game kills.
The predator/prey study.....
Even though the results give some insight to what's going on.
The "unknown factors" really bring it down to inconclusive data.
Example fawn mortality, which is some of the most important data in my opinion. They dropped the ball.
Now if that was just cause they couldn't get that data,or an attempt to protect predators,we will never know.
I'm kinda with nocknock there are many contributed factors bringing mule deer numbers down.
I can't point the finger at predators alone,it may,or may not be number one. Hard to say. The number one cause may be different for certain areas.
My opinion....
Antlerless harvest and fawn mortality are the only two things that can bring a herd back. If it takes more predator hunting,or less antlerless harvest for hunters. We need to do what's best for our ungulates. Like said above,the "unknown factors" of fawns mortality in the predator/prey project really put that research as a waste of time. I feel they are protecting predators by skewed data.
I think they know what killed those fawns,and didn't want there research effecting predator seasons ect.
Cause if we know the truth about fawn mortality,then predators could be the number one factor. The biologists that did that project didn't want that data revealed.
Post by: Bob33 on October 11, 2023, 10:10:35 AM
I wouldn't take that estimate of cougars killing a deer every two weeks. Like it's wrote in stone.It is an estimate but one that many sources including WDFW confirm. "Every 7 to 12 days" would equate to between 30 and 52 killed per year.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019-03/Cougar%20Brochure.pdf
"Cougars’ principal prey includes deer and elk, but they also catch prey as small as deer mice. Other prey includes coyotes, rabbits, rodents, raccoons, beaver, and infrequently, pets and livestock. Usually a cougar kills only one large animal at a time and kills one deer-sized prey every 7 to 12 days."
Post by: mcrawfordaf on October 11, 2023, 10:19:48 AM
"Fawn survival a problem:
The research team captured 96 newborn fawns and equipped them with radio collars over a 7-year period from 1979 to 1985. These radio transmitters not only allowed the researchers to determine the locations of the fawns, but they also sent out a special signal when the fawns died. This allowed researchers to locate the fawns soon after they died and determine the cause of death. They were able to monitor and determine the fate of 90 of these fawns through their first year of life.
All the fawns were healthy at time of capture, and their size and weight were comparable to those of fawns from other mule deer herds. During the 7 years of the study, fawn survival ranged from 13% to 42% and averaged 38%. Two percent were killed in accidents, 9% died from disease or birth defects, and predators were responsible for the deaths of 51% of the fawns. Of those taken by predators 3% were killed by bobcats, 22% by bears, 27% by coyotes, and 49% by mountain lions."
Post by: 2MANY on October 11, 2023, 10:27:19 AM
IF YOU ARE GOING TO MANAGE A FEW SPECIES IN AN ECOSYSTEM THEN YOU NEED TO MANAGE ALL THE SPECIES.
NOT MANAGING PREDATOR NUMBERS IS A JOKE AND GOVERNMENT IS THE PUNCHLINE!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: hunter399 on October 11, 2023, 10:40:30 AM
Exactly LOL.I wouldn't take that estimate of cougars killing a deer every two weeks. Like it's wrote in stone.It is an estimate but one that many sources including WDFW confirm. "Every 7 to 12 days" would equate to between 30 and 52 killed per year.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019-03/Cougar%20Brochure.pdf
"Cougars’ principal prey includes deer and elk, but they also catch prey as small as deer mice. Other prey includes coyotes, rabbits, rodents, raccoons, beaver, and infrequently, pets and livestock. Usually a cougar kills only one large animal at a time and kills one deer-sized prey every 7 to 12 days."
That estimate only works out if there is 52 deer in that habitat for a cougar to kill.
I live in the predator pit,ring of predators if you will.
They will scratch out a living on anything,till the next round of fawns hit the ground.
Just like tag soup for hunters,cougar is not gonna kill that many deer a year if they don't exist.
Just depends on the habitat, current deer population,human interaction between the two.
Anything WDFW tells ya,you gotta take that with a grain of salt.
In a very rich deer habitat,they probably will kill that many deer a year,I agree. If the ungulate population can support it. If it can't support it,than the estimate is wrong.
I'll give an example...
Trail cams where I live. Every cam that has a big buck,or a very good deer population,will always have a cat on the camera.
Areas with very low deer population may still have a cat on it,they will look unhealthy,skinny,overall hungry looking.
But they will still scratch out a living. Just not on deer.
Another trend I noticed in very low ungulate areas.
A cat will take all the fawns first,you will see fawns spring and early summer. Then by fall about this time,no fawns or yearling at all.
Only adult deer,I'm not talking about them losing there spots.
I'm saying they are gone. But that cougar will leave a few deer.
So it can eat it's fawns the next year.
I guess the point I'm making,is that estimate from WDFW,only works if there is enough deer to support it.
There are spots where I live,you would never see 52 deer a year on public land. So how can they eat that many. :dunno:
Post by: huntnphool on October 11, 2023, 12:33:07 PM
That's because they have the largest year impact on the deer population.
Prove it!
That's not hard to do at all, look at the Lolo elk herd or the Yellowstone after the illegal introduction of wolves. Do you think the wolves only eat elk?
Totally diff ecosystems…. Even so, that does not prove the reason todrop of herd quantity.
Go ahead and keep on drinking the wolf-aid, Pretty sure you are kegs worth into it so far.
PS, I’m not say wolves/preds do not play a part……just not as big
Of a role as most claim…… they are an easy blame tool
Of 52 Mule Deer mortalities studied in the Okanogan during the Predator Prey Project - 22 were predation... :twocents:
Not sure if you argree/disagree with my post?
But it proves my point. Lets do some math.....
So 42% of the study animals were killed by predators, that leaves 58% killed/died by other means. Not the "sky is falling" numbers some would like you to believe.
Why is blackjack a predominant game at gambling casinos? Simple, the odds are in the favor of the house.
The basic odds of winning a hand of blackjack as a player are guess what? 42%
Guess we all need to be playing BJ to get rich. It's working for the predators.
42% by predators, break down the other 58%!…or are you suggesting the rest is a single cause?
My guess is 42% is the majority. :twocents:
Post by: hunter399 on October 11, 2023, 12:42:03 PM
You guys are quoting a research project that was done by anti-hunters. LoL 😂.That's because they have the largest year impact on the deer population.
Prove it!
That's not hard to do at all, look at the Lolo elk herd or the Yellowstone after the illegal introduction of wolves. Do you think the wolves only eat elk?
Totally diff ecosystems…. Even so, that does not prove the reason todrop of herd quantity.
Go ahead and keep on drinking the wolf-aid, Pretty sure you are kegs worth into it so far.
PS, I’m not say wolves/preds do not play a part……just not as big
Of a role as most claim…… they are an easy blame tool
Of 52 Mule Deer mortalities studied in the Okanogan during the Predator Prey Project - 22 were predation... :twocents:
Not sure if you argree/disagree with my post?
But it proves my point. Lets do some math.....
So 42% of the study animals were killed by predators, that leaves 58% killed/died by other means. Not the "sky is falling" numbers some would like you to believe.
Why is blackjack a predominant game at gambling casinos? Simple, the odds are in the favor of the house.
The basic odds of winning a hand of blackjack as a player are guess what? 42%
Guess we all need to be playing BJ to get rich. It's working for the predators.
42% by predators, break down the other 58%!…or are you suggesting the rest is a single cause?
My guess is 42% is the majority. :twocents:
The fact that they can't recover collars that gives a GPS location.
Doesn't raise a red flag. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Put that collar on a dead wolf. 100 percent guaranteed they find it. :chuckle:
Sometimes you can't BS ,A person who is full of BS. :chuckle:
Data from that project is evil bro.
Post by: wolfbait on October 11, 2023, 12:59:47 PM
Since wolves, I have come across several cougar killed deer where the wolves drove the cat off their kill--cougar has to go kill another, this is winter of course. And I have ridden through ambush areas where deer travel from alfalfa fields or cross roads and found dead deer all over the place with just their rib cage torn into. In 2008 we fed over 100 head with our broncs, there were quite a few late fawns, one night a big cat came through and killed 7 never ate on any of them.
While we are all discussing how many deer the cougars kill, add bear in the fawning grounds, now there is a slaughter you don't want to ride through. Coyotes kill their fair share, and when the snow crusts up it gets really bad. Now add wolves, they kill in any environment, that's what they are made for. Charles Kay said that when wolves start in on deer, they kill them so fast you don't have time for studies, and I would take his word over any of those running WDFW.
I see the hunters are starting to flood into the Methow for a few weeks of camping. My guess is scott fitkin will run to the paper with the same deer report after hunting season-For the amount of hunters that showed up, hunting was a great success!
Meanwhile back in dream world, there will still be those that believe uncontrolled predators are not the main reason there are so few deer.... :rolleyes:
Post by: hunter399 on October 11, 2023, 01:26:47 PM
At the same time,I wouldn't get into a heated debate over it.
Or take it too seriously.
That's all I'm adding.
Logging out for a bit.
Post by: timberfaller on October 11, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
Anyway, what he told me while I was out and about with him, was that the department was going down the road that their biologist were going to be running the show. Those out in the "brush" seeing with their own eyes what was happening on a daily basis, were going to be looked at as "non-essential information"! They don't know what they are talking about, they are just enforcers!! :bash: :bash:
I see Wally World is starting to see the light that, just because you have a degree from college, doesn't make one "fit" for the job!! :chuckle:
Post by: mcrawfordaf on October 11, 2023, 02:02:27 PM
Exactly LOL.I wouldn't take that estimate of cougars killing a deer every two weeks. Like it's wrote in stone.It is an estimate but one that many sources including WDFW confirm. "Every 7 to 12 days" would equate to between 30 and 52 killed per year.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019-03/Cougar%20Brochure.pdf
"Cougars’ principal prey includes deer and elk, but they also catch prey as small as deer mice. Other prey includes coyotes, rabbits, rodents, raccoons, beaver, and infrequently, pets and livestock. Usually a cougar kills only one large animal at a time and kills one deer-sized prey every 7 to 12 days."
That estimate only works out if there is 52 deer in that habitat for a cougar to kill.
I live in the predator pit,ring of predators if you will.
They will scratch out a living on anything,till the next round of fawns hit the ground.
Just like tag soup for hunters,cougar is not gonna kill that many deer a year if they don't exist.
Just depends on the habitat, current deer population,human interaction between the two.
Anything WDFW tells ya,you gotta take that with a grain of salt.
In a very rich deer habitat,they probably will kill that many deer a year,I agree. If the ungulate population can support it. If it can't support it,than the estimate is wrong.
I'll give an example...
Trail cams where I live. Every cam that has a big buck,or a very good deer population,will always have a cat on the camera.
Areas with very low deer population may still have a cat on it,they will look unhealthy,skinny,overall hungry looking.
But they will still scratch out a living. Just not on deer.
Another trend I noticed in very low ungulate areas.
A cat will take all the fawns first,you will see fawns spring and early summer. Then by fall about this time,no fawns or yearling at all.
Only adult deer,I'm not talking about them losing there spots.
I'm saying they are gone. But that cougar will leave a few deer.
So it can eat it's fawns the next year.
I guess the point I'm making,is that estimate from WDFW,only works if there is enough deer to support it.
There are spots where I live,you would never see 52 deer a year on public land. So how can they eat that many. :dunno:
It sounds like you're describing low deer numbers and high cougar numbers in your "predator pit"...
"3. We suspect that cougar predation can keep a prey population at an unnaturally
low density (a “predator pit”).
Holling (1959) demonstrated that additive mortality due to predation could interact
with density-dependent prey dynamics (Figure 2.2) to create either 1 or 2 stable
equilibrium densities for the prey population. The theoretical basis is strong, and it is
plausible that such dynamics exist for some predator-prey systems. In vertebrate predator-
prey systems, the higher equilibrium (near but somewhat below the carrying capacity
set by food resources) is considered the natural state of affairs, but following a catastrophe
(such as severe winter weather, drought, a tornado, a disease epidemic, or isolation
of a population segment by a freeway), mortality from predation can, in theory at least,
keep prey at an equilibrium far below food-based
K – a situation referred to as a “predator
pit” (Haber 1977, Bergerud et al. 1983, Messier 1994).
Predator pits have been postulated to occur for caribou (Rangifer tarandus) interacting
with wolves in Alaska (Ballard et al. 1997), for moose interacting with wolves
(Messier 1994), for pronghorn (Antilocapra americana) interacting with coyotes (Dunbar
et al. 1999), for wild horses (Equus caballus) interacting with cougars in Nevada (Turner
et al. 1992), and for bighorn sheep interacting with cougars in California (Hayes et al.
2000, Schaefer et al. 2000) and Arizona (Kamler et al. 2002). In addition, cougar
predation caused the near extinction of porcupines in a Nevada basin (Sweitzer et al.
1997). We believe that some of these situations probably do represent predator pits.
However, we caution that the existence of a 2-equilibrium system has never been
demonstrated in nature or in the laboratory. Many, perhaps all, unmanaged ungulate predator
systems could have a single equilibrium prey density (Messier 1994)."
Post by: 2MANY on October 11, 2023, 02:42:17 PM
I'll throw this little tidbit into the debate! The Game Warden way back in the day when I had to deal with the west side tribes members coming over to the Valley killing deer everywhere they could. Informed me on our last outing he couldn't help me if they came again and they did! :bash: :bash:
Anyway, what he told me while I was out and about with him, was that the department was going down the road that their biologist were going to be running the show. Those out in the "brush" seeing with their own eyes what was happening on a daily basis, were going to be looked at as "non-essential information"! They don't know what they are talking about, they are just enforcers!! :bash: :bash:
I see Wally World is starting to see the light that, just because you have a degree from college, doesn't make one "fit" for the job!! :chuckle:
The educated idiots from another state are now running the clown show.
Real book smart types with zero practical experience or time in the saddle.
Post by: wafisherman on October 11, 2023, 03:32:15 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 11, 2023, 08:11:15 PM
I'll throw this little tidbit into the debate! The Game Warden way back in the day when I had to deal with the west side tribes members coming over to the Valley killing deer everywhere they could. Informed me on our last outing he couldn't help me if they came again and they did! :bash: :bash:
Anyway, what he told me while I was out and about with him, was that the department was going down the road that their biologist were going to be running the show. Those out in the "brush" seeing with their own eyes what was happening on a daily basis, were going to be looked at as "non-essential information"! They don't know what they are talking about, they are just enforcers!! :bash: :bash:
I see Wally World is starting to see the light that, just because you have a degree from college, doesn't make one "fit" for the job!! :chuckle:
Sig?
Post by: mountainman on October 11, 2023, 09:15:48 PM
I'll throw this little tidbit into the debate! The Game Warden way back in the day when I had to deal with the west side tribes members coming over to the Valley killing deer everywhere they could. Informed me on our last outing he couldn't help me if they came again and they did! :bash: :bash:
Anyway, what he told me while I was out and about with him, was that the department was going down the road that their biologist were going to be running the show. Those out in the "brush" seeing with their own eyes what was happening on a daily basis, were going to be looked at as "non-essential information"! They don't know what they are talking about, they are just enforcers!! :bash: :bash:
I see Wally World is starting to see the light that, just because you have a degree from college, doesn't make one "fit" for the job!! :chuckle:
Sig?
Yes Sig
They cleaned slot of deer Rendevous thru Fawn creek in those years sadly
Post by: huntnphool on October 11, 2023, 10:23:14 PM
I'll throw this little tidbit into the debate! The Game Warden way back in the day when I had to deal with the west side tribes members coming over to the Valley killing deer everywhere they could. Informed me on our last outing he couldn't help me if they came again and they did! :bash: :bash:
Anyway, what he told me while I was out and about with him, was that the department was going down the road that their biologist were going to be running the show. Those out in the "brush" seeing with their own eyes what was happening on a daily basis, were going to be looked at as "non-essential information"! They don't know what they are talking about, they are just enforcers!! :bash: :bash:
I see Wally World is starting to see the light that, just because you have a degree from college, doesn't make one "fit" for the job!! :chuckle:
Sig?
Yes Sig
They cleaned slot of deer Rendevous thru Fawn creek in those years sadly
A good man! :tup:
Post by: mountainman on October 11, 2023, 11:35:05 PM
Yes sir!I'll throw this little tidbit into the debate! The Game Warden way back in the day when I had to deal with the west side tribes members coming over to the Valley killing deer everywhere they could. Informed me on our last outing he couldn't help me if they came again and they did! :bash: :bash:
Anyway, what he told me while I was out and about with him, was that the department was going down the road that their biologist were going to be running the show. Those out in the "brush" seeing with their own eyes what was happening on a daily basis, were going to be looked at as "non-essential information"! They don't know what they are talking about, they are just enforcers!! :bash: :bash:
I see Wally World is starting to see the light that, just because you have a degree from college, doesn't make one "fit" for the job!! :chuckle:
Sig?
Yes Sig
They cleaned slot of deer Rendevous thru Fawn creek in those years sadly
A good man! :tup:
Worked with him for six months many years ago working a case on a group of poachers. Solid guy ole Sig👍
Post by: buglebrush on October 12, 2023, 07:32:06 AM
That's because they have the largest year impact on the deer population.
Prove it!
That's not hard to do at all, look at the Lolo elk herd or the Yellowstone after the illegal introduction of wolves. Do you think the wolves only eat elk?
Totally diff ecosystems…. Even so, that does not prove the reason todrop of herd quantity.
Go ahead and keep on drinking the wolf-aid, Pretty sure you are kegs worth into it so far.
PS, I’m not say wolves/preds do not play a part……just not as big
Of a role as most claim…… they are an easy blame tool
Of 52 Mule Deer mortalities studied in the Okanogan during the Predator Prey Project - 22 were predation... :twocents:
Not sure if you argree/disagree with my post?
But it proves my point. Lets do some math.....
So 42% of the study animals were killed by predators, that leaves 58% killed/died by other means. Not the "sky is falling" numbers some would like you to believe.
Why is blackjack a predominant game at gambling casinos? Simple, the odds are in the favor of the house.
The basic odds of winning a hand of blackjack as a player are guess what? 42%
Guess we all need to be playing BJ to get rich. It's working for the predators.
42% is huge!!!!! Also, it's insanely huge because we actually could easily do much more predator management. Take away that 42% and the herd would be in a much better place! Predation is there year after year. Bad winters come and go, but overabundant predators never quit not to mention the increased winter kill and fawn deaths due to the stress wolves put on the herds. :bash:
Post by: timberfaller on October 12, 2023, 08:37:18 AM
And ole Cal was a good one too! Had a long talk with him at the shooting range one evening! :yike: Issue at hand, he said if called to court, he'd have to be a "hostile witness"! Good man!!
Post by: skagitsteel on October 12, 2023, 09:04:26 AM
I spent a lot of time in that area this summer (been coming here off and on for over a decade). The fire damage the last few years has been terrible. We did some hiking in the back country and some fishing. In one weekend, we saw 2 bears and a cougar - no deer other than those near the towns/private property. Went back twice in the last month scouting for deer while grouse hunting. Grouse hunting was decent. My favorite spots were burned out in 2021, so looked for new areas. My kids got handful of grouse and a rabbit. Lots of bear and other predator scat. Very little deer sign. Not even doe and fawn droppings. Some tracks here and there. In one area we found some huge but very old buck droppings. But in 8 days (combining the outings) - not one deer spotted in the various backcountry spots we drove or hiked - higher elevations to the valleys below. May end up heading to my buddies place near Colville for whitetail, but they have been hit hard be predators as well. Maybe it's time to get serious about blacktail...
Atleast in the NW part of the state blacktail are seeing a similar demise. There are pockets of them here and there but overall numbers around here quite honestly are 1/3 or less of what they were 2016 and prior. fawn survival near zero in many spots I go.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 12, 2023, 09:53:58 AM
I spent a lot of time in that area this summer (been coming here off and on for over a decade). The fire damage the last few years has been terrible. We did some hiking in the back country and some fishing. In one weekend, we saw 2 bears and a cougar - no deer other than those near the towns/private property. Went back twice in the last month scouting for deer while grouse hunting. Grouse hunting was decent. My favorite spots were burned out in 2021, so looked for new areas. My kids got handful of grouse and a rabbit. Lots of bear and other predator scat. Very little deer sign. Not even doe and fawn droppings. Some tracks here and there. In one area we found some huge but very old buck droppings. But in 8 days (combining the outings) - not one deer spotted in the various backcountry spots we drove or hiked - higher elevations to the valleys below. May end up heading to my buddies place near Colville for whitetail, but they have been hit hard be predators as well. Maybe it's time to get serious about blacktail...
Atleast in the NW part of the state blacktail are seeing a similar demise. There are pockets of them here and there but overall numbers around here quite honestly are 1/3 or less of what they were 2016 and prior. fawn survival near zero in many spots I go.
That brings up a good point. Not familiar with your area, but fairly sure wolves have little to no part in the decline.
The Entiat herd is failing drastically too. Wolves are much newer to that herd than the Methow(at least in quantity) so the wolves only seem to be part of the equation. I spend ALOT of time in the Entiat, never seen a wolf yet(tracks only) have been seeing fewer bears, and sign of them, and well cougars, I get the same amount on cams that I have for the last 15 years.
Yes, 42% is huge, but it’s only part of the problem.
How many years now has the Methow herd been hurting? The “predator pit” ideology can not have the preds multiplying exponentially if there is no main continual food source (deer/elk/moose)
All I’m trying to say is that statistically , preds May be the biggest piece of the pie in kills, but a death is a death, however it occurs. If you take all the other pieces of the pie and combine them, they are far worse for our ungulates.
Every one wants to blame the preds, but with our current admin and public sentiment, gonna be nearly impossible to change hounds/baiting/wolf hunting. If more folks would concentrate on the pieces of pie we can change……it would go a long ways in helping the herds.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 12, 2023, 10:04:45 AM
Interesting read, all though it pertains to just whitetail.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 12, 2023, 10:40:25 AM
Even to this day when you go out the deer that aren't so called "valley deer" are on alert at all times due to predator population. In the past 10 years I have noticed that even when feeding they constantly pull their head up looking around. They are a lot more spooky now and flight at the littlest thing. This has an impact on their reproduction rate.
Post by: Bob33 on October 12, 2023, 10:43:36 AM
https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/content/blogs/dan-schmidt-deer-blog-whitetail-wisdom/what-kills-the-most-deer-in-a-year#:~:text=The%20answer%20isn't%20cut,wreak%20havoc%20on%20deer%20herds.Using the numbers quoted in that article results in 25 deer killed per cougar per year. Multiplying 25 by the 3,000 cougars in Washington is 75,000 deer killed by cougars. Washington hunters reporting killing 21,000 deer in 2022.
Interesting read, all though it pertains to just whitetail.
Post by: Humptulips on October 12, 2023, 12:15:04 PM
When a cougar makes a kill, it fills up and then goes off to lay up and digest. When it gets up it goes hunting. If it kills something it never goes back to the first kill. If it is unsuccessful, it goes back and eats more. Rinse and repeat. I have seen quite a few cougar kills with only one feed taken off them and others almost totally consumed. For those reasons I think in higher ungulate populations cougars kill a lot more than once a week. In lower populations it could be less than once a week. Plus, they kill other stuff. Our prey population on the Peninsula has suffered across the board. I especially notice beaver as I am a trapper.
Bottom line, what has changed that I see in my area over the last 60 years? Not habitat, not bad winters, not excess human activity. What has changed is a massive increase in cougar and to a lesser extent bear. Deer, elk, beaver all way down. When did that trend towards reduced prey numbers happen? It started in the 80s when they went to managing the cougar population with draw tags and accelerated in the 2000s after hounds were out of the picture.
I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about this. Cougar numbers are above the carrying capacity. If you add in other predators, one could say predators carrying capacity has been exceeded. Accepting this and doing something about it is unfortunately a political choice.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 12, 2023, 12:40:45 PM
https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/content/blogs/dan-schmidt-deer-blog-whitetail-wisdom/what-kills-the-most-deer-in-a-year#:~:text=The%20answer%20isn't%20cut,wreak%20havoc%20on%20deer%20herds.Using the numbers quoted in that article results in 25 deer killed per cougar per year. Multiplying 25 by the 3,000 cougars in Washington is 75,000 deer killed by cougars. Washington hunters reporting killing 21,000 deer in 2022.
Interesting read, all though it pertains to just whitetail.
Many variables,
“IF” all 3000 cats killed a deer. What about juveniles? Did they all kill deer too?
“Reported” hunter kills. What about unreported/poaching/tribal/wounded & died not found?
Fire, vehicle, dog running, habitat loss, depredation tags, etc kills, all human caused kills, not just hunting. If we get to lump all preds together, do we not get to lump all human related kills together?
Y’all want to blame everything on the preds, Fact is there are tons of reasons why the herds are hurting.
It’s a complex issue, not just predators.
PS…..curious why nobody screams coyote kills, my guess is they kill way more fawns than bears.
Also, do your part, get out there and kill a cat…..I did.
Have fun hashing this out, I’m out as to not piss off MtMly by “rambling” any more. :hello:
Post by: hunter399 on October 12, 2023, 01:14:00 PM
I think I was one on here that did say....https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/content/blogs/dan-schmidt-deer-blog-whitetail-wisdom/what-kills-the-most-deer-in-a-year#:~:text=The%20answer%20isn't%20cut,wreak%20havoc%20on%20deer%20herds.Using the numbers quoted in that article results in 25 deer killed per cougar per year. Multiplying 25 by the 3,000 cougars in Washington is 75,000 deer killed by cougars. Washington hunters reporting killing 21,000 deer in 2022.
Interesting read, all though it pertains to just whitetail.
Many variables,
“IF” all 3000 cats killed a deer. What about juveniles? Did they all kill deer too?
“Reported” hunter kills. What about unreported/poaching/tribal/wounded & died not found?
Fire, vehicle, dog running, habitat loss, depredation tags, etc kills, all human caused kills, not just hunting. If we get to lump all preds together, do we not get to lump all human related kills together?
Y’all want to blame everything on the preds, Fact is there are tons of reasons why the herds are hurting.
It’s a complex issue, not just predators.
PS…..curious why nobody screams coyote kills, my guess is they kill way more fawns than bears.
Also, do your part, get out there and kill a cat…..I did.
Have fun hashing this out, I’m out as to not piss off MtMly by “rambling” any more. :hello:
"Many contributing factors"reply#128
You forgot winter/starvation kills.
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
It's not "human kill" but in general severe winters do make a huge impact. Female doesn't make it through winter,there never be a fawn dropped.
Post by: hunter399 on October 12, 2023, 01:31:15 PM
In part by hunters ,but also predator.
Some might even say climate change,but I don't think so.
Covers mule deer and WT ,maybe BT but I don't hunt them.
Here it is......you guys ready....it's a theory......
Late Born Fawns!
Pressure during mating seasons,by hunters,or too many predators in the environment. Has caused deer evaluation to breed later in the year. Over time ,a lot of time, deer are now breeding later .
In turn ,fawn survival has gone down with fawns born later , year after year.
I'm not biologist,and it would take research and time to prove this theory. But what you all think of this one?
Just remember fawn survival is the key.
Post by: wolfbait on October 12, 2023, 03:07:48 PM
This formula of a cougar killing a deer a week is too simplistic. My Father had hounds and I started going with him chasing cats in the 60s. He had been at it since the 40s. I later took to trapping so I have seen a lot of cougar kills over the years. My Father had a theory about cats and with my observations I have pretty well embraced it.
When a cougar makes a kill, it fills up and then goes off to lay up and digest. When it gets up it goes hunting. If it kills something it never goes back to the first kill. If it is unsuccessful, it goes back and eats more. Rinse and repeat. I have seen quite a few cougar kills with only one feed taken off them and others almost totally consumed. For those reasons I think in higher ungulate populations cougars kill a lot more than once a week. In lower populations it could be less than once a week. Plus, they kill other stuff. Our prey population on the Peninsula has suffered across the board. I especially notice beaver as I am a trapper.
Bottom line, what has changed that I see in my area over the last 60 years? Not habitat, not bad winters, not excess human activity. What has changed is a massive increase in cougar and to a lesser extent bear. Deer, elk, beaver all way down. When did that trend towards reduced prey numbers happen? It started in the 80s when they went to managing the cougar population with draw tags and accelerated in the 2000s after hounds were out of the picture.
I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about this. Cougar numbers are above the carrying capacity. If you add in other predators, one could say predators carrying capacity has been exceeded. Accepting this and doing something about it is unfortunately a political choice.
:yeah:
Post by: huntnphool on October 12, 2023, 11:09:07 PM
Not familiar with your area, but fairly sure wolves have little to no part in the decline.I spent a lot of time in that area this summer (been coming here off and on for over a decade). The fire damage the last few years has been terrible. We did some hiking in the back country and some fishing. In one weekend, we saw 2 bears and a cougar - no deer other than those near the towns/private property. Went back twice in the last month scouting for deer while grouse hunting. Grouse hunting was decent. My favorite spots were burned out in 2021, so looked for new areas. My kids got handful of grouse and a rabbit. Lots of bear and other predator scat. Very little deer sign. Not even doe and fawn droppings. Some tracks here and there. In one area we found some huge but very old buck droppings. But in 8 days (combining the outings) - not one deer spotted in the various backcountry spots we drove or hiked - higher elevations to the valleys below. May end up heading to my buddies place near Colville for whitetail, but they have been hit hard be predators as well. Maybe it's time to get serious about blacktail...
Atleast in the NW part of the state blacktail are seeing a similar demise. There are pockets of them here and there but overall numbers around here quite honestly are 1/3 or less of what they were 2016 and prior. fawn survival near zero in many spots I go.
:chuckle: LMAO, nothing to see here, move along! :chuckle:
Post by: huntnphool on October 12, 2023, 11:19:19 PM
All I’m trying to say is that statistically , preds May be the biggest piece of the pie in kills, but a death is a death, however it occurs.I spent a lot of time in that area this summer (been coming here off and on for over a decade). The fire damage the last few years has been terrible. We did some hiking in the back country and some fishing. In one weekend, we saw 2 bears and a cougar - no deer other than those near the towns/private property. Went back twice in the last month scouting for deer while grouse hunting. Grouse hunting was decent. My favorite spots were burned out in 2021, so looked for new areas. My kids got handful of grouse and a rabbit. Lots of bear and other predator scat. Very little deer sign. Not even doe and fawn droppings. Some tracks here and there. In one area we found some huge but very old buck droppings. But in 8 days (combining the outings) - not one deer spotted in the various backcountry spots we drove or hiked - higher elevations to the valleys below. May end up heading to my buddies place near Colville for whitetail, but they have been hit hard be predators as well. Maybe it's time to get serious about blacktail...
Atleast in the NW part of the state blacktail are seeing a similar demise. There are pockets of them here and there but overall numbers around here quite honestly are 1/3 or less of what they were 2016 and prior. fawn survival near zero in many spots I go.
Oh no, the cause of death is very much the issue!!! You step on your soap box, bloviating your opinion, and doing your best to spin the destruction preds have on the herds, then try to equate car impacts and winter kill? :chuckle:
Nice try, everyone here now sees who you are! ;)
Still waiting for your reply!!!
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 13, 2023, 07:15:55 AM
I wouldn't take that estimate of cougars killing a deer every two weeks. Like it's wrote in stone.
I'm sure cougars just like all predators are opportunity based .
Example would be a few,grouse, turkey,rabbit,smaller critters, in-between big game kills.
The predator/prey study.....
Even though the results give some insight to what's going on.
The "unknown factors" really bring it down to inconclusive data.
Example fawn mortality, which is some of the most important data in my opinion. They dropped the ball.
Now if that was just cause they couldn't get that data,or an attempt to protect predators,we will never know.
I'm kinda with nocknock there are many contributed factors bringing mule deer numbers down.
I can't point the finger at predators alone,it may,or may not be number one. Hard to say. The number one cause may be different for certain areas.
My opinion....
Antlerless harvest and fawn mortality are the only two things that can bring a herd back. If it takes more predator hunting,or less antlerless harvest for hunters. We need to do what's best for our ungulates. Like said above,the "unknown factors" of fawns mortality in the predator/prey project really put that research as a waste of time. I feel they are protecting predators by skewed data.
I think they know what killed those fawns,and didn't want there research effecting predator seasons ect.
Cause if we know the truth about fawn mortality,then predators could be the number one factor. The biologists that did that project didn't want that data revealed.
:tup:
Yes cats are very opportunistic. and hard on the herds.
Here's a pic from a few years ago. I found 2 very fresh kills within 10 yards of each other, killed the same night. Put cams on them, cat came back and pretty much only ripped out the fetuses and ate them, leaving the does 80% untouched.
Post by: wolfbait on October 14, 2023, 12:49:55 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 14, 2023, 03:59:38 PM
[quote author=NOCK NOCK link=topic=281805.msg3840341#msg3840341 date=1697201794
"Still waiting for your reply!!! - On what, this? "Do you think the wolves only eat elk?" Of coarse they eat more than elk, (except only in the Methow.....theres no deer left up there!)
That wasn’t me.
That's because they have the largest year impact on the deer population.
Prove it!
That's not hard to do at all, look at the Lolo elk herd or the Yellowstone after the illegal introduction of wolves. Do you think the wolves only eat elk?
Totally diff ecosystems…. Even so, that does not prove the reason todrop of herd quantity.
Go ahead and keep on drinking the wolf-aid, Pretty sure you are kegs worth into it so far.
PS, I’m not say wolves/preds do not play a part……just not as big
Of a role as most claim…… they are an easy blame tool
Of 52 Mule Deer mortalities studied in the Okanogan during the Predator Prey Project - 22 were predation... :twocents:
Not sure if you argree/disagree with my post?
But it proves my point. Lets do some math.....
So 42% of the study animals were killed by predators, that leaves 58% killed/died by other means. Not the "sky is falling" numbers some would like you to believe.
Why is blackjack a predominant game at gambling casinos? Simple, the odds are in the favor of the house.
The basic odds of winning a hand of blackjack as a player are guess what? 42%
Guess we all need to be playing BJ to get rich. It's working for the predators.
42% by predators, break down the other 58%!…or are you suggesting the rest is a single cause?
My guess is 42% is the majority. :twocents:
Still waiting for your reply! :rolleyes:
Try to keep up.
[/quote]
1. Not playing your game anymore
2. I apologize for calling you a name.
Post by: huntnphool on October 15, 2023, 08:42:51 PM
[quote author=NOCK NOCK link=topic=281805.msg3840341#msg3840341 date=1697201794
"Still waiting for your reply!!! - On what, this? "Do you think the wolves only eat elk?" Of coarse they eat more than elk, (except only in the Methow.....theres no deer left up there!)
That wasn’t me.
That's because they have the largest year impact on the deer population.
Prove it!
That's not hard to do at all, look at the Lolo elk herd or the Yellowstone after the illegal introduction of wolves. Do you think the wolves only eat elk?
Totally diff ecosystems…. Even so, that does not prove the reason todrop of herd quantity.
Go ahead and keep on drinking the wolf-aid, Pretty sure you are kegs worth into it so far.
PS, I’m not say wolves/preds do not play a part……just not as big
Of a role as most claim…… they are an easy blame tool
Of 52 Mule Deer mortalities studied in the Okanogan during the Predator Prey Project - 22 were predation... :twocents:
Not sure if you argree/disagree with my post?
But it proves my point. Lets do some math.....
So 42% of the study animals were killed by predators, that leaves 58% killed/died by other means. Not the "sky is falling" numbers some would like you to believe.
Why is blackjack a predominant game at gambling casinos? Simple, the odds are in the favor of the house.
The basic odds of winning a hand of blackjack as a player are guess what? 42%
Guess we all need to be playing BJ to get rich. It's working for the predators.
42% by predators, break down the other 58%!…or are you suggesting the rest is a single cause?
My guess is 42% is the majority. :twocents:
Still waiting for your reply! :rolleyes:
Try to keep up.
1. Not playing your game anymore
2. I apologize for calling you a name.
[/quote]
I’m not playing a game, simply waiting for you to answer, it’s really not that complicated….unless you can’t? :dunno:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 16, 2023, 06:48:46 AM
Have a great day!
Post by: huntnphool on October 16, 2023, 11:17:15 AM
I can answer ANY question you throw at me.
Uh huh, clearly. :chuckle:
Post by: buglebrush on October 21, 2023, 04:07:11 PM
This formula of a cougar killing a deer a week is too simplistic. My Father had hounds and I started going with him chasing cats in the 60s. He had been at it since the 40s. I later took to trapping so I have seen a lot of cougar kills over the years. My Father had a theory about cats and with my observations I have pretty well embraced it.
When a cougar makes a kill, it fills up and then goes off to lay up and digest. When it gets up it goes hunting. If it kills something it never goes back to the first kill. If it is unsuccessful, it goes back and eats more. Rinse and repeat. I have seen quite a few cougar kills with only one feed taken off them and others almost totally consumed. For those reasons I think in higher ungulate populations cougars kill a lot more than once a week. In lower populations it could be less than once a week. Plus, they kill other stuff. Our prey population on the Peninsula has suffered across the board. I especially notice beaver as I am a trapper.
Bottom line, what has changed that I see in my area over the last 60 years? Not habitat, not bad winters, not excess human activity. What has changed is a massive increase in cougar and to a lesser extent bear. Deer, elk, beaver all way down. When did that trend towards reduced prey numbers happen? It started in the 80s when they went to managing the cougar population with draw tags and accelerated in the 2000s after hounds were out of the picture.
I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about this. Cougar numbers are above the carrying capacity. If you add in other predators, one could say predators carrying capacity has been exceeded. Accepting this and doing something about it is unfortunately a political choice.
This right here.
Post by: no.cen.wa on October 26, 2023, 10:39:08 PM
Post by: timberfaller on October 27, 2023, 07:42:50 AM
Even know of a few who had jobs where they were told to speak up when they saw certain animals, they didn't, thank God!! Prolonged the logging for a few extra years!
To "those"(you know who you are :chuckle:) on here in this debate, remember Elias Peters??? What did he kill when he lived at the Mazama junction? I've forgot the year, maybe one of you could refresh my memory!
Post by: mountainman on October 27, 2023, 08:00:48 AM
Interesting comments, but there are a few on here that seen the "herds" back in the 70's into the early 80's. What you see today is a very small fraction of what used to be. These same "guy's", some who spent more time outdoors then indoors "seen" lots of "no! not in the Methow" critters! :chuckle:“Ellis”
Even know of a few who had jobs where they were told to speak up when they saw certain animals, they didn't, thank God!! Prolonged the logging for a few extra years!
To "those"(you know who you are :chuckle:) on here in this debate, remember Elias Peters??? What did he kill when he lived at the Mazama junction? I've forgot the year, maybe one of you could refresh my memory!
Post by: timberfaller on October 27, 2023, 08:19:28 AM
Remember what he shot??
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 28, 2023, 06:07:35 AM
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,202003.0.html
Quite interesting how most of the talk about population decline is because of human activities, fires/doe tags/etc. Only 1 person mentions wolves, no one mentions cats. Hound hunting was banned in 96, that gave cats 10 years to populate.
What is your opinion on how the population '16, compare to population '23?
Post by: mountainman on October 28, 2023, 09:34:42 AM
Post by: huntnphool on October 28, 2023, 10:13:43 PM
Hmmmmm, this thread was linked in a recent one. Those who posted here should re-read it.
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,202003.0.html
Quite interesting how most of the talk about population decline is because of human activities, fires/doe tags/etc. Only 1 person mentions wolves, no one mentions cats. Hound hunting was banned in 96, that gave cats 10 years to populate.
What is your opinion on how the population '16, compare to population '23?
Good point about the cats! :tup:
Post by: Tbar on October 29, 2023, 08:35:33 AM
More of Fitkin being mis-informed..Protection of critical winter habitat is a good thing and the non hunting public have a large impact especially on mule deer. Lack of critical winter habitat is the single largest threat to their future existence. I have no misconceptions about the impacts of cougars and wolves but development and fragmentation create more constriction and opportunity for predation than a closure. :twocents:
https://methowvalleynews.com/2023/09/21/praise-criticism-for-proposed-winter-wildlife-closures/?fbclid=IwAR1WILfY7n2HmzTi7--FRCwrrjKEkM3oIhicAxUZeBTuz8HLmQVELHCDMsI_aem_ATpOccKVdFafEo29z5qzPgrVFXs5SdJQwqJ_-kA4evJlT4aVnOMVtkK4CX2HZ_zxySQ&mibextid=9R9pXO
Post by: ghosthunter on October 29, 2023, 09:06:11 AM
More of Fitkin being mis-informed..Protection of critical winter habitat is a good thing and the non hunting public have a large impact especially on mule deer. Lack of critical winter habitat is the single largest threat to their future existence. I have no misconceptions about the impacts of cougars and wolves but development and fragmentation create more constriction and opportunity for predation than a closure. :twocents:
https://methowvalleynews.com/2023/09/21/praise-criticism-for-proposed-winter-wildlife-closures/?fbclid=IwAR1WILfY7n2HmzTi7--FRCwrrjKEkM3oIhicAxUZeBTuz8HLmQVELHCDMsI :yeah:_aem_ATpOccKVdFafEo29z5qzPgrVFXs5SdJQwqJ_-kA4evJlT4aVnOMVtkK4CX2HZ_zxySQ&mibextid=9R9pXO
:yeah:
Post by: jackelope on October 29, 2023, 10:10:47 AM
More of Fitkin being mis-informed..Protection of critical winter habitat is a good thing and the non hunting public have a large impact especially on mule deer. Lack of critical winter habitat is the single largest threat to their future existence. I have no misconceptions about the impacts of cougars and wolves but development and fragmentation create more constriction and opportunity for predation than a closure. :twocents:
https://methowvalleynews.com/2023/09/21/praise-criticism-for-proposed-winter-wildlife-closures/?fbclid=IwAR1WILfY7n2HmzTi7--FRCwrrjKEkM3oIhicAxUZeBTuz8HLmQVELHCDMsI_aem_ATpOccKVdFafEo29z5qzPgrVFXs5SdJQwqJ_-kA4evJlT4aVnOMVtkK4CX2HZ_zxySQ&mibextid=9R9pXO
Boom.
Post by: timberfaller on October 29, 2023, 12:44:09 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 29, 2023, 03:48:56 PM
I cannot disagree, IMO there’s a much larger problem, they have 4 legs and their populations are growing AND spreading.More of Fitkin being mis-informed..Protection of critical winter habitat is a good thing and the non hunting public have a large impact especially on mule deer. Lack of critical winter habitat is the single largest threat to their future existence. I have no misconceptions about the impacts of cougars and wolves but development and fragmentation create more constriction and opportunity for predation than a closure. :twocents:
https://methowvalleynews.com/2023/09/21/praise-criticism-for-proposed-winter-wildlife-closures/?fbclid=IwAR1WILfY7n2HmzTi7--FRCwrrjKEkM3oIhicAxUZeBTuz8HLmQVELHCDMsI_aem_ATpOccKVdFafEo29z5qzPgrVFXs5SdJQwqJ_-kA4evJlT4aVnOMVtkK4CX2HZ_zxySQ&mibextid=9R9pXO
Post by: Rainier10 on October 29, 2023, 04:23:00 PM
:yeah: times one million.More of Fitkin being mis-informed..Protection of critical winter habitat is a good thing and the non hunting public have a large impact especially on mule deer. Lack of critical winter habitat is the single largest threat to their future existence. I have no misconceptions about the impacts of cougars and wolves but development and fragmentation create more constriction and opportunity for predation than a closure. :twocents:
https://methowvalleynews.com/2023/09/21/praise-criticism-for-proposed-winter-wildlife-closures/?fbclid=IwAR1WILfY7n2HmzTi7--FRCwrrjKEkM3oIhicAxUZeBTuz8HLmQVELHCDMsI_aem_ATpOccKVdFafEo29z5qzPgrVFXs5SdJQwqJ_-kA4evJlT4aVnOMVtkK4CX2HZ_zxySQ&mibextid=9R9pXO
Post by: wolfbait on October 31, 2023, 08:58:13 AM
I cannot disagree, IMO there’s a much larger problem, they have 4 legs and their populations are growing AND spreading.More of Fitkin being mis-informed..Protection of critical winter habitat is a good thing and the non hunting public have a large impact especially on mule deer. Lack of critical winter habitat is the single largest threat to their future existence. I have no misconceptions about the impacts of cougars and wolves but development and fragmentation create more constriction and opportunity for predation than a closure. :twocents:
https://methowvalleynews.com/2023/09/21/praise-criticism-for-proposed-winter-wildlife-closures/?fbclid=IwAR1WILfY7n2HmzTi7--FRCwrrjKEkM3oIhicAxUZeBTuz8HLmQVELHCDMsI_aem_ATpOccKVdFafEo29z5qzPgrVFXs5SdJQwqJ_-kA4evJlT4aVnOMVtkK4CX2HZ_zxySQ&mibextid=9R9pXO
:yeah:
This closure in my opinion is pure BS, look at WDFW past performance in the management of the deer, protection of predators, no winter feeding and doe tags. And the guy running the meeting is the most pro predator guy of the outfit. The same guy that blamed everything but wolves for livestock predation. Now WDFW suddenly Care about the deer?
Meanwhile, in real life the mule deer and whitetail winter in towns, around homes and in the river bottoms. This is just another snow job by WDFW for the brainwashed people that now populate the Valley, as one game warden said last winter: The city people believe everything we tell them.
Use the emotional hook to close down land with No deer, lie to your face, just like they did and are still do with the wolves. And some of you fell for it hook line and sinker. :rolleyes:
Post by: timberfaller on October 31, 2023, 09:11:49 AM
Still waiting!! NOT going to hold my breath that it will ever happen! :bash:
Post by: huntnphool on November 02, 2023, 10:27:15 PM
I cannot disagree, IMO there’s a much larger problem, they have 4 legs and their populations are growing AND spreading.More of Fitkin being mis-informed..Protection of critical winter habitat is a good thing and the non hunting public have a large impact especially on mule deer. Lack of critical winter habitat is the single largest threat to their future existence. I have no misconceptions about the impacts of cougars and wolves but development and fragmentation create more constriction and opportunity for predation than a closure. :twocents:
https://methowvalleynews.com/2023/09/21/praise-criticism-for-proposed-winter-wildlife-closures/?fbclid=IwAR1WILfY7n2HmzTi7--FRCwrrjKEkM3oIhicAxUZeBTuz8HLmQVELHCDMsI_aem_ATpOccKVdFafEo29z5qzPgrVFXs5SdJQwqJ_-kA4evJlT4aVnOMVtkK4CX2HZ_zxySQ&mibextid=9R9pXO
:yeah:
This closure in my opinion is pure BS, look at WDFW past performance in the management of the deer, protection of predators, no winter feeding and doe tags. And the guy running the meeting is the most pro predator guy of the outfit. The same guy that blamed everything but wolves for livestock predation. Now WDFW suddenly Care about the deer?
Meanwhile, in real life the mule deer and whitetail winter in towns, around homes and in the river bottoms. This is just another snow job by WDFW for the brainwashed people that now populate the Valley, as one game warden said last winter: The city people believe everything we tell them.
Use the emotional hook to close down land with No deer, lie to your face, just like they did and are still do with the wolves. And some of you fell for it hook line and sinker. :rolleyes:
+1
Post by: DWAT on November 04, 2023, 09:58:28 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on November 05, 2023, 05:03:45 AM
Predation is being discounted for sure! Interesting how as the wolf numbers increase, the deer numbers drastically decrease. The fact that today's generation of politicians think they are smarter than yesterday's generation is appalling. Our forefathers eradicated predators line wolf's for good reason!
Nice 1st post. It's good to see others feel the same way a lot of us do about this issue. :tup:
Post by: boneaddict on November 05, 2023, 05:50:02 AM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 05, 2023, 08:35:52 AM
Encourage all to read this 10year old thread again.
2014
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,162334.180.html
.....and a couple of noteworthy posts.....
(1.)......
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Re: Let The Methow Herd Destruction Begin
« Reply #255 on: October 28, 2015, 02:45:45 PM »
Quote
I will never believe anything else other than season dates being the main factor. At least those that say we need snow to move the migrators down can back off, since snow definitely wasn't a factor.
Still believe the same?
(2.)
Re: Let The Methow Herd Destruction Begin
« Reply #243 on: October 28, 2015, 10:35:46 AM »
Quote
Lack of feed and water are my guesses, and I wonder if lack of doe up high brought the rutting migrators in early as well. This was a crazy year for sure. I've never seen so many big bucks killed. Wrong year to stay home I guess. I'm afraid of future years. firkin should be thrilled spitless
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Post by: MtnMuley on November 05, 2023, 12:11:08 PM
Since you really don't have any first-hand experience in the Methow and can't even seem to dig up anything going back over 10 years, can you leave the discussion now?
Post by: Rainier10 on November 05, 2023, 12:55:50 PM
Post by: boneaddict on November 05, 2023, 03:39:18 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 05, 2023, 04:30:12 PM
Nobody needs to “leave the discussion”.
It's the norm, I can handle it. :tup:
To me it tells a lot about a person's character when they have ZERO idea of another persons knowledge, but continue to want to discount them. :twocents:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 05, 2023, 04:40:14 PM
So 10 years ago it was fire/overharvest.
Currently it is a "predator pit"
What's the prediction for 2033? .......Yea I know "There's gonna be no deer left" will be the answer from some. Try a little harder.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 05, 2023, 04:44:52 PM
Worst I have seen it. At this point you could stop legal harvest. Check mate!
I would agree with that. BUT, If we go down that road.....more pressure on all other failing herds, or any other herds for that matter.
Like I have continued to say, and will stop after this post, HUMANS are the biggest threat to ALL deer herds (not just the methow)
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 05, 2023, 05:04:09 PM
May be their populations are not as gargantuan as is believed, but that because there are so few deer, they are having to spend a lot more time moving around/hunting, making them much more susceptible to being seen/leaving lots of tracks everywhere.
Ponder that!
Maybe I will leave the conversation.......getting old hearing the same ole same ole.
Post by: mossback91 on November 05, 2023, 06:12:23 PM
Has anyone by chance thought about the reason folks are seeing WAY MORE predators?Funny
May be their populations are not as gargantuan as is believed, but that because there are so few deer, they are having to spend a lot more time moving around/hunting, making them much more susceptible to being seen/leaving lots of tracks everywhere.
Ponder that!
Maybe I will leave the conversation.......getting old hearing the same ole same ole.
Post by: mossback91 on November 05, 2023, 06:15:10 PM
The reality of a un checked wolf population.
Post by: Mulie87 on November 05, 2023, 08:37:35 PM
https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/science/2019/08/17/when-biologists-stocked-a-deer-heavy-southeast-alaska-island-with-wolves/ (https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/science/2019/08/17/when-biologists-stocked-a-deer-heavy-southeast-alaska-island-with-wolves/)
The reality of a un checked wolf population.
Great article and real life experiment.
Post by: 30.06 on November 05, 2023, 10:17:24 PM
But the '15 season didn't help, either. I would be okay to go for Mule deer quality buck hunt every other or even 3 years, while being able to take a whitetail or blacktail during the same general modern season. To make a sacrifice today so that there are still good genes around 30 years in the future.
If we can still legally hunt with a high-powered rifle in National Forest lands in 30 years.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 06, 2023, 05:49:40 AM
https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/science/2019/08/17/when-biologists-stocked-a-deer-heavy-southeast-alaska-island-with-wolves/ (https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/science/2019/08/17/when-biologists-stocked-a-deer-heavy-southeast-alaska-island-with-wolves/)
The reality of a un checked wolf population.
The Cycle I spoke of.