The ridiculousness of the Methow Valley and Mule deer

[hunter399]

I have no experience or expertise in the area.
But did read the article.
Seems like a step in the right direction.
Also needs that antlerless harvest gone,fawn survival up.
Seems like winter habitat,and less antlerless harvest would go hand and hand for a desired result.
Otherwise what's the point.

[highcountry_hunter]

Care to elaborate?

If you read the posted article, the fact is the Methow herd is in dire shape for sure! The comments of hikers/snowshoers/c-country skiers taking the blame, along with fires (a whole nother topic) being the main cause for the decimation of the herds, with a passing comment on wolves and cougar and bear predation, the discontinuing of the feeding programs of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s barely mentioned. And the comment that the “town” deer are predominate whitetail and not mules, lends me to believe his boots on the ground research is lacking on a large scale. Managment has been failing these herds for the last few decades, and the blame is being pushed for sure!
Just my opinion from growing up, hunting this area, and sadly seeing this change…
Heart-breaking..

Thanks for the clarification. I did read the article and agree with needing to limit recreation on some of this winter ground, but also agree that mismanagement is what got us here in the first place. I'm guessing we'll never see another deer feeding program in WA with CWD lingering. The comment about mule deer being important because they're the primary food source for wolves and lions is telling

Probably the most telling comment in the whole article. They wouldn't care about the populations if it weren't for the wolves...  They don't want the deer to be harvested by humans they just want enough in the ecosystem to feed their precious wolves

Also the fact that they put “harvesting” in quotes when referring to bucks taken by hunters.


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[Kascade_Killer]

Care to elaborate?

If you read the posted article, the fact is the Methow herd is in dire shape for sure! The comments of hikers/snowshoers/c-country skiers taking the blame, along with fires (a whole nother topic) being the main cause for the decimation of the herds, with a passing comment on wolves and cougar and bear predation, the discontinuing of the feeding programs of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s barely mentioned. And the comment that the “town” deer are predominate whitetail and not mules, lends me to believe his boots on the ground research is lacking on a large scale. Managment has been failing these herds for the last few decades, and the blame is being pushed for sure!
Just my opinion from growing up, hunting this area, and sadly seeing this change…
Heart-breaking..

 

Someone care to share what they know of Scott Fitkin’s perspective or management plan for the Methow herd? Maybe someone has a link to a management plan I can read up on.

After reading OP article I don’t know much about Fitkin (other then he’s been with wdfw for a long time), but I’m just glad there is a plan to support the herd. Bare minimum maybe some of the Methow locals (that aren’t totally irrational relocated Seattle-ites) will start to realize the impact of winter recreation and million dollar homes in the sagebrush have on the MD.

I didn’t have the fortune to hunt the Methow in its glory days but have family that have occupied the same wall tent spot since the 60’s without missing a year, if I mentioned our name many old timers would probably know of the camp. I grew up seeing pictures from old clippings of the local paper with our family holding 15 or more nice bucks. Now I know it will never be that again, but I’m glad Scott is making an effort to reverse or at least slow the extinction. The unfortunate part of it all is our WDFW bios can do their jobs, have grand plans, and restoration projects but as long as they don’t have the support from the commission they will continue to make it an uphill battle as they dump wolves & now  grizzlies into the state with no management plan in place.

I’m just a young buck (early 20s) compared to most on this forum and am probably missing a lot of the story behind the Methow herds downfall. That being said hopefully they can get this passed and it’s a stepping stone in at least awareness for the herd. Or better yet the for-mentioned irrational Seattle-ites relocate to Aspen,CO for their precious XC skiing.

Hell WDFW could close the whole country down it won't make a dam bit of difference to the deer. This closure is not about the deer, and more than likely you will see more closures in the future using some BS story just like this one.

I see there are still people who partially blame "habitat" on the decimation of the deer< There would be far fewer deer if they couldn't get protection from town or around homes up and down the Valley. We never had town deer before wolves, deer feel safe close to homes and people> I have seen deer hang on county roads, lay right in the gravel on the edge the road when wolves are in close just like cattle on the range land roads.

WDFW are directly responsible for the condition of the deer herds we have today, and their complete lack of management of deer. If they were managing the deer, you would see them feeding them through hard winters, you would see predator control, you wouldn't see doe tags etc.. Once the Game department changed over to WDFW things went south, what we have today is not about conservation, it is about destroying everything that has to do with your wildlife.

Any time you see fitkin pretending to give a dam about deer you can figure it's a BS ride, after all he was a huge supporter of wolves clear back in the 1980's. Under fitkin most if not all wolf killed livestock turned into everything but wolves. and as we are seeing with this article the BS is still going on today. Blame  those who have nothing to do with the decimation of the deer, protect wolves and other predators above all else.

Wolfbait,

Thank you for the background on Fitkin, disappointing to hear his support on wolves in his earlier days. Much less the fall of the herd under his watch since he’s been there for as long as he can.

Does anyone have old game regs to see if the antler-less tags have seen a decrease in the last 10 years or so? Looks like most units are set at a quota of 5. I’ll never understand the antlerless hunts in that part of the state. If you need the meat that bad come over to Spokane I could send you a pin and put you on a 1.5-2.5 year old whitetail within hours, they are like rats over here.

The predation and overall support for the herd is obviously the biggest contributor to the herds downfall along with probably over harvest before the turn of the century. That being said I still support the closure of the area during the winter. Feels good for someone other than hunters to lose the rights to something for once. Not to say that we probably are next.

 

[huntnphool]

Closing that area is only allowing the predators to have an open table to what's left. It's right in the prime zone of the wintering grounds for the Lightning Ck. pack. This closure is about the absolute worst thing possible for the struggling muley herd there.

 +1

[LDennis24]

Closing that area is only allowing the predators to have an open table to what's left. It's right in the prime zone of the wintering grounds for the Lightning Ck. pack. This closure is about the absolute worst thing possible for the struggling muley herd there.

 So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it... 

[LDennis24]

Ooh! I know how to get around it! The Unlawful Inclosures Act guarantees you access to public land! No matter what! It doesn't have any exceptions for conservation as far as I know. Apparently it even supercedes private landowners rights!

[baker5150]

I have no experience or expertise in the area.
But did read the article.
Seems like a step in the right direction.
Also needs that antlerless harvest gone,fawn survival up.
Seems like winter habitat,and less antlerless harvest would go hand and hand for a desired result.
Otherwise what's the point.

 

Protecting wintering herds has been an effective tactic across the West for decades.

This should be seen as step 1 in a 50 step process for protecting and rebuilding the Methow herd.

[RC]

Closing that area is only allowing the predators to have an open table to what's left. It's right in the prime zone of the wintering grounds for the Lightning Ck. pack. This closure is about the absolute worst thing possible for the struggling muley herd there.

 So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it... 

It doesn't matter.  They could close the area for recreation, which would allow predators to come into the winter range more easily and stress the the herd, or they can leave it open to recreation and the herd would be stressed by all the people in the area.  Either way, it's a lose lose situation for deer.

[fireweed]

If they closed this area to all human use, wouldn't that just provide a safer hunting ground for cougars and wolves.  Wouldn't the closure occur DURING cougar season, the only predator season out there that could actually kill a deer-eater.  I know at Banff national Park all the elk hang around the golf course.  Miles and miles of wilderness and they choose to be around people.  Why?  Where people are wolves are not.  I fear that would be the case here.  Deer mortality may actually go up if this land was closed to all human activity.  I wonder if there are any studies out there about that. The other states that close their lands mostly have strong predator management, so it is not a direct comparison.

[LDennis24]

So wouldn't the same be true for all other winter ranges in areas with predators now? We are making it worse for them by closing off the winter range areas and providing predators a buffet?

[bigmacc]

After years of going to different meetings it came apparent the WDFW were managing this herd for predators and not hunters, I’ve been saying this for years, Fitkin pretty much admitted it with a few statements within this article. I do agree it’s not a bad idea to close access to some winter range for a few months during the dead of winter to guard against harassment from humans but what good will that do when they’re just going to even be more harassed by cats and wolves. Like some have said they’re just providing a buffet for an exploding predator population. The 3 real issues to the Methow heard are in this order….1 predators, 2 predators, 3 predators. The mismanagement of predators are the main issue. Manage predators more aggressively and manage the herd for hunters, sportsman, photographers and even for folks who don’t hunt but enjoy going out and looking at deer instead of managing them to sustain cats, bears and wolves so THEIR numbers prosper and grow would solve the problem for all. I’m not saying to obliterate all cats bears and wolves, just get their numbers back in check where the herd can grow. I remember as a boy how neat it was to see a bear or cougar, they belong just like the deer herd does(except for wolves because I believe they were planted) but management needs to be balanced for all user groups not lopsided as it is now with the focus being put on coddling and nurturing predators. Like I said he pretty much said just that, not in those words but it’s the gist of it. Listening at some meetings in the past going back 25 years or so and reading between the lines, I made that conclusion years ago.

[RC]

After years of going to different meetings it came apparent the WDFW were managing this herd for predators and not hunters, I’ve been saying this for years, Fitkin pretty much admitted it with a few statements within this article. I do agree it’s not a bad idea to close access to some winter range for a few months during the dead of winter to guard against harassment from humans but what good will that do when they’re just going to even be more harassed by cats and wolves. Like some have said they’re just providing a buffet for an exploding predator population. The 3 real issues to the Methow heard are in this order….1 predators, 2 predators, 3 predators. The mismanagement of predators are the main issue. Manage predators more aggressively and manage the herd for hunters, sportsman, photographers and even for folks who don’t hunt but enjoy going out and looking at deer instead of managing them to sustain cats, bears and wolves so THEIR numbers prosper and grow would solve the problem for all. I’m not saying to obliterate all cats bears and wolves, just get their numbers back in check where the herd can grow. I remember as a boy how neat it was to see a bear or cougar, they belong just like the deer herd does(except for wolves because I believe they were planted) but management needs to be balanced for all user groups not lopsided as it is now with the focus being put on coddling and nurturing predators. Like I said he pretty much said just that, not in those words but it’s the gist of it. Listening at some meetings in the past going back 25 years or so and reading between the lines, I made that conclusion years ago.

I think you are spot on with this, and if you bring this up in a meeting...they will agree with you.  They are definitely going full predator protection and I believe the issue they see is that there are not enough predators. 

As far as I can tell, their wet dream is to turn the entire state into a Yellowstone park.  "Mismanagement" to them is that we allow any predator hunting at all.  Bottom line is that they want predators to do all "management" of the deer herds for us. 

[jstone]

Good lord this state has gone down the toilet. Thank You to all the Democrats for screwing up this state and others

[wolfbait]

After years of going to different meetings it came apparent the WDFW were managing this herd for predators and not hunters, I’ve been saying this for years, Fitkin pretty much admitted it with a few statements within this article. I do agree it’s not a bad idea to close access to some winter range for a few months during the dead of winter to guard against harassment from humans but what good will that do when they’re just going to even be more harassed by cats and wolves. Like some have said they’re just providing a buffet for an exploding predator population. The 3 real issues to the Methow heard are in this order….1 predators, 2 predators, 3 predators. The mismanagement of predators are the main issue. Manage predators more aggressively and manage the herd for hunters, sportsman, photographers and even for folks who don’t hunt but enjoy going out and looking at deer instead of managing them to sustain cats, bears and wolves so THEIR numbers prosper and grow would solve the problem for all. I’m not saying to obliterate all cats bears and wolves, just get their numbers back in check where the herd can grow. I remember as a boy how neat it was to see a bear or cougar, they belong just like the deer herd does(except for wolves because I believe they were planted) but management needs to be balanced for all user groups not lopsided as it is now with the focus being put on coddling and nurturing predators. Like I said he pretty much said just that, not in those words but it’s the gist of it. Listening at some meetings in the past going back 25 years or so and reading between the lines, I made that conclusion years ago.

 


Then there's the fact that wolves do a lot of killing in the dark hours, just ask some of the ranchers. I find it sorta funny that people think closing off public lands to protect deer from the public is going to help the deer, when the deer are mostly in town or wintering next to peoples homes.

In the winter if you care to spend some time here scouting you will find the cougars and wolves killing deer in the low lands, and river bottoms, some within a few miles of town. I have driven plowed back roads in the winter 60 plus miles and seen no deer in the foothills, but as you get closer to town you will start seeing deer.

This Summer wolves that "should" have been out in the "closure area" killed 6 goats in broad daylight a few miles from town, when the newbies left for the day to go play.

It is not the people recreating that impact the deer, it's those running WDFW.


I wonder if that article was mostly for people who don't have a clue or are brainwashed to the point of stupid.

[LDennis24]

I don't think anyone on here believes that just the simple closure will solve the issue, but I for one believe it will help. Nobody has an answer for all the other wintering grounds and if we should quit closing them down for the same reasons? We're just giving predators the advantage...