The Best Glue?

[konrad]

Open the window, please!

[Chesapeake]

Chesapeake where are you getting your 99% IPA?  I've found it hard to get around our area.

Bimart carries 91%. It's good for the most part. The 99% I ordered by the case from some industrial supply place. All I have now is the square plastic bottles with generic looking labels that say "swan" on them. I'll check Monday and see if I can find the order history.

Don't buy the "green" mineral spirits or maybe it's denatured alcohol. It's not like the real stuff. Just a suggestion.

[hughjorgan]

Chesapeake where are you getting your 99% IPA?  I've found it hard to get around our area.

Bimart carries 91%. It's good for the most part. The 99% I ordered by the case from some industrial supply place. All I have now is the square plastic bottles with generic looking labels that say "swan" on them. I'll check Monday and see if I can find the order history.

Don't buy the "green" mineral spirits or maybe it's denatured alcohol. It's not like the real stuff. Just a suggestion.

The last bottle of 91% I bought was from Walgreens. Doesn't leave any sort of residue.

[konrad]

I found denatured alcohol at the local Walmart “suitable for marine heat sources and stoves”. I am assuming that’s pretty close to as good as it will get. There was no residue left on white paper towels when poured out and allowed to dry.

As a correction: I re-read the instructions on the Blazer package and Bohnig suggests an acetone wash or powdered cleaners such as Comet and then a rinse with hot water. The Walmart also had acetone for $16 a gallon (cheaper than the denatured alcohol). Since I’ve tried the Comet/hot water combination and I’m now gluing with both Platinum Plus and Gorilla rubberized cyno acrylate after sanding with 150 grit and washing with alcohol, the next round will be with the Loctite Black (coming UPS next week) as suggested by kind contributors along with the sanding and washing with acetone.

[RadSav]

I found denatured alcohol at the local Walmart “suitable for marine heat sources and stoves”. I am assuming that’s pretty close to as good as it will get. There was no residue left on white paper towels when poured out and allowed to dry.

As a correction: I re-read the instructions on the Blazer package and Bohnig suggests an acetone wash or powdered cleaners such as Comet and then a rinse with hot water. The Walmart also had acetone for $16 a gallon (cheaper than the denatured alcohol). Since I’ve tried the Comet/hot water combination and I’m now gluing with both Platinum Plus and Gorilla rubberized cyno acrylate after sanding with 150 grit and washing with alcohol, the next round will be with the Loctite Black (coming UPS next week) as suggested by kind contributors along with the sanding and washing with acetone.

I can not over emphasize the need to avoid economical acetone.  Almost any lacquer thinner will work better than cheap acetone.  I don't know what the additive is that they put in cheap acetone, but it's bad stuff for cleaning arrows.  You can see the film left behind when cleaning black X7's.  And it's tough stuff to get off once you get it on there.  Only acetone I've ever had consistant luck with has been McLendon Hardware's private brand.  And that was more than 20 years ago. Stuff I got came in a black 5 gallon can with a generic white McLendon label on it.   Not sure you will get the same stuff today but it would be worth a shot if your heart is set on acetone.  A quick swipe on a glass bathroom mirror will tell you quick if there is any film being left over.

That denatured stuff for marine heat sources at WallyWorld is not too bad.  I have not seen any of that stuff having the blue or purple dye, but check it out before applying.

I've tried the 91% IPA from Walgreens.  We use it for all kinds of stuff around the shop here.  Super cheap, doesn't give you a headache, strips grease and resin deposits off our molds quite nicely, and doesn't make me panic everytime I get it close to a $10,000.00 microscope.  But I have never had any consistant luck using for cleaning arrow shafts.  I think it still has too much water in it.  That 99% stuff sounds like the stuff I'd want.  I just can't ever seem to find it locally.

[konrad]

While I was scrounging around the paint department in Walmart last week, I did find gallon cans of “lacquer thinner”. I would just as soon not have acetone around the house anyway. I did not check pricing at the time. I think that I will be heading back there during this coming week for supplies and use it with each of the adhesive compounds.

Another factor that I have added to my testing process is a heat lamp hung over my work area to maintain steady ambient temperature. The digital thermometer at the surface is hovering around 79 degrees Fahrenheit. It is quite possible the ambient temperature would be too low for proper curing because I run the house around 60; however, the batch of arrows that are bond failing (that generated the original post) were made up during the early summer months and ambient temps were hovering in the mid 70’s naturally. They also got about two weeks cure time on the shelf in the warmest room of the house (the utility room with washer, drier, water heater) before being pressed into service.

The combination of 150 grit, denatured alcohol, Platinum Plus or Gorilla rubberized cyno acrylate will get the destructive testing regimen later today (the yank ‘em ‘til they squeal method). Long, long ago, in a far off distant past, I worked as an engineering technician processing polyurethanes for the oil, automotive and sporting goods markets. Destructive bond testing always revealed the truth. The optimal test showed a torn polyurethane/adhesive interface and no clean metal or clean elastomer.

I have decided that if I can not get repeatable 100% bond with some prep/adhesive combination; I will go back to turkey feathers.
It is beginning to look like someone plucked a chicken and left the mess in front of my target…that had been covered in black Blazers instead of feathers.

[hughjorgan]

What kind of jig are you using, a bitzenberger or something else? One thing I do to make sure I get good contact with the blazer and glue to the shaft is holding the clamp tight to the shaft for about fifteen seconds. That way I am sure the vane and glue doesn't have any air pockets where the vane will not have glue.

[Chesapeake]

You could try an auto paint store for the 99% ipa. They should have it in gallon jugs. You can just order it though. A case will last a lifetime.
I don't get the "comet" suggestions. That stuff always leaves a white powdery residue when cleaning the bathroom stuff. I would expect the same on an arrow. I'd use ammonia before I used comet.
Given the suggestion to return to feathers I'm assuming you bonding is failing at the vane and not the shaft??? All the sanding and shaft prep wont help that any.
I always wipe the vanes with IPA to remove any mold release or plasticizers that I think may be there. Of course I never considered Bohning may have applied a primer.
Maybe go get a bottle of Everclear and try that, on the vanes.

[konrad]

What kind of jig are you using, a bitzenberger or something else? One thing I do to make sure I get good contact with the blazer and glue to the shaft is holding the clamp tight to the shaft for about fifteen seconds. That way I am sure the vane and glue doesn't have any air pockets where the vane will not have glue.

Bitzenberger with helical clamp

[konrad]

You could try an auto paint store for the 99% ipa. They should have it in gallon jugs. You can just order it though. A case will last a lifetime.
I don't get the "comet" suggestions. That stuff always leaves a white powdery residue when cleaning the bathroom stuff. I would expect the same on an arrow. I'd use ammonia before I used comet.
Given the suggestion to return to feathers I'm assuming you bonding is failing at the vane and not the shaft??? All the sanding and shaft prep wont help that any.
I always wipe the vanes with IPA to remove any mold release or plasticizers that I think may be there. Of course I never considered Bohning may have applied a primer.
Maybe go get a bottle of Everclear and try that, on the vanes.

Yes, Bohnig states that a primer has been applied to the base of each Blazer.

I wonder, if I just drink the Everclear and wait 30 minutes, could I just breathe on the shafts and vanes?

[RadSav]

You could try an auto paint store for the 99% ipa. They should have it in gallon jugs. You can just order it though. A case will last a lifetime.

Thanks!  But if I was going to an auto paint store I'd get their lacquer thinner.  It's by far the best stuff I've used in more than 30 years.  That's 10's of thousands of arrows fletched with it and no issues.

[JLS]

You could try an auto paint store for the 99% ipa. They should have it in gallon jugs. You can just order it though. A case will last a lifetime.
I don't get the "comet" suggestions. That stuff always leaves a white powdery residue when cleaning the bathroom stuff. I would expect the same on an arrow. I'd use ammonia before I used comet.
Given the suggestion to return to feathers I'm assuming you bonding is failing at the vane and not the shaft??? All the sanding and shaft prep wont help that any.
I always wipe the vanes with IPA to remove any mold release or plasticizers that I think may be there. Of course I never considered Bohning may have applied a primer.
Maybe go get a bottle of Everclear and try that, on the vanes.

Yes, Bohnig states that a primer has been applied to the base of each Blazer.

I wonder, if I just drink the Everclear and wait 30 minutes, could I just breathe on the shafts and vanes?

Might create some unforseen adhesion issues, like Blazers stuck to your lips, head, arms.  Not sure Everclear and Superglue are a match made in Heaven

[RadSav]

Be careful when drinking Everclear and fletching arrows at the same time.  Someone might suggest drinking a few "Super Skrues'".  Those are not made with Loctite, Gorilla or Goat-Tuff!!!  Even though it might taste better that way

[Chesapeake]

You could try an auto paint store for the 99% ipa. They should have it in gallon jugs. You can just order it though. A case will last a lifetime.

Thanks!  But if I was going to an auto paint store I'd get their lacquer thinner.  It's by far the best stuff I've used in more than 30 years.  That's 10's of thousands of arrows fletched with it and no issues.

I shy away from lacquer thinner just cause its so variable in its blending and materials and I dont care for the toluene, zylene, or MEK. Them are nasty chemicals to breath and have in my house. Yeah, alcohol isnt good, but I feel better with it. Alcohol isnt variable like lacquer thinner and I believe its much less likely to attack the resins in my carbon arrows.

But yeah, if a guy was going for lacquer thinner, a high quality version from an auto parts store would be the one to get.

[konrad]

Follow up on The Best Glue

The first round of destructive testing results are in. The following are the conditions at time of fletching with 3, 2 inch Blazer vanes applied with the Bitzenberger Fletchmatic and left helical clamp.
I first lightly sanded the Easton XX 78 Super Slam 2413 alloy shafts with a 150 grit sanding block.
Then, using a clean white paper towel wiped the shafts down with denatured alcohol suitable for marine heating/stove applications and air dried for 30 minutes minimum prior to fletching. The alcohol left no visible residue on the paper towels when left to dry before wiping the shafts (checking for obvious residual additives). At one point, when absent-mindedly (that happens more and more these days) wiping one of the shafts, it got so clean as to begin “ringing” just like you hear when person rubs their finger along the edge of a fine crystal goblet or glass. At that point I decided that shaft was probably “clean”.

I hung a 110 volt heat lamp above my work area and measured the temperature with a digital thermometer to be a very stabile 79 degrees F.
The clamp was left in place for an average of 30 minutes for each vane and sometimes more than an hour.
I applied the Blazers using Gorilla Super Glue Impact Tough Formula and Bohnig’s Platinum Plus fletching glue.
I found the Platinum Plus much easier to work with as it has less tendency to run.
The arrows were allowed 48 hours additional curing time at an average 65 degrees F.

Then I actively tried to pull, twist and otherwise tear the vanes from the shafts.
Over all, I did achieve better results but was able to get a 100% bond on only two arrows (six vanes).
I term 100% bond when the vane must be cut from the shaft with a razor knife.
The two arrows with the 100% bond were using the Platinum Plus.
The remaining vanes were pulled or twisted off of the shafts with some effort but when they came off, the shafts were by and large free of adhesives.
There were only 2 vanes applied with the Gorilla that had a 50% effective bond.
Every other failure was complete in that the adhesive remained with the vane and little, if any, adhesive remained on the shaft.

The absence of glue on the shafts tells me I am experiencing a shaft prep issue as yet unresolved.

I am left wondering if the shaft that “rang” while cleaning was one of the shafts that had 100% bonding. If so, that level of cleanliness required about 15 to 20 strokes with the alcohol while rotating to a fresh spot on a new towel.

The next test will involve:
1.   Another sanding
2.   “ringing” cleanliness on each shaft with denatured alcohol
3.   application using the Loctite Super Glue Ultra Gel Control, the Platinum Plus and the Gorilla glue (three shafts each)
4.   using with the aforementioned temperature and clamping conditions.


After that round of tests, if there are again failures, I will substitute lacquer thinner for the alcohol.
We will see what we will see.
The search goes on.

K