I've officially lost it!

[jetjockey]

Yep.  I'm paying for doggie infertility!  My female brittany never comes into season when she needs to.  We've had a breeding planned for a year or two but could never make the timing work.  So we decided to take timing into our own hands. After a ton of research and many calls to several infertility vets, I brought her into season, and shipped her out to Nebraska yesterday to be bred.  Hopefully all this time and money equates to some great healthy puppies....  We planned the breeding two years ago because of the proven trial record of crossing the two lines.  However, since then, the sire went RU NC and is currently the top All Age brittany in the country, and my dogs littermate is currently the top Shooting dog brittany in the country.  This could conceivable end up being a breeding that crosses the two best current AA and SD Brittany's in the country.  While that doesn't guarantee anything, it will hopefully help.   With any luck, we will have a nice and healthy litter. My wife and I will pick out one pup , and the rest will be sent to the trainer and raised until they are old enough for a solid evaluation.   Anything that shows potential will stay with the trainer and given a chance on the circuit, while the others will be sold as started hunting dogs.

I've been excited to breed my pup for several years.  I can't wait to get another pup!

[Happy Gilmore]

Why not only breed if you have a waiting list of people wanting the breeding? Especially, because you seem to be having struggles with the natural breeding process? You're talking a lot of money for fertility work. Probably be cheaper to buy the littermate?

Out of curiosity, (not to be rude in any way) how much does one pay for the absolute top level Brit pup? I mean, the single best dream breeding you can imagine which is feasible this year? I know in the lab field trial world, you'd maybe talk about $3K? Yet, those pups would never be advertised or available because hard core FT'ers and would have them before they were bred. The breeders wouldn't even sell the dogs because they'd be turning down people asking if the breeding took place.

It seems for a average FT dog, going to those lengths and expenses is a bit outrageous? I don't know the pointer world like you do so, maybe I'm off base? What does a started Brit pup at 1.5 YO sell for if, it isn't a real big FT prospect? $3K?

[AspenBud]

Why not only breed if you have a waiting list of people wanting the breeding? Especially, because you seem to be having struggles with the natural breeding process? You're talking a lot of money for fertility work. Probably be cheaper to buy the littermate?

Out of curiosity, (not to be rude in any way) how much does one pay for the absolute top level Brit pup? I mean, the single best dream breeding you can imagine which is feasible this year? I know in the lab field trial world, you'd maybe talk about $3K? Yet, those pups would never be advertised or available because hard core FT'ers and would have them before they were bred. The breeders wouldn't even sell the dogs because they'd be turning down people asking if the breeding took place.

It seems for a average FT dog, going to those lengths and expenses is a bit outrageous? I don't know the pointer world like you do so, maybe I'm off base? What does a started Brit pup at 1.5 YO sell for if, it isn't a real big FT prospect? $3K?

As far as English Pointers go it depends on who the dog is and where in the country. A quality pup can be had for anywhere from $350-$500, especially if you look outside the Pac NW. The bigger trial prospects are usually sold before the breeding happens or has arrived. Started pups... it depends on what you consider started, I think 3k would be a little high however unless it was a direct pup out of a National Champion.

[jetjockey]

Happy

Week don't have a list becuse we aren't selling them right away.  That doesn't mean I couldn't get a list with just a few phone calls.  I've had lots of people tell me they want a pup, and depending how things work out, maybe they will get one. But myself, and my trainers clients will get the first option after the dogs are evaluated.  If any of the pups show trial potential, they will be kept in house.  As Aspen alluded to, this is the reason people who want pups from certain breeding, often can't get pups.  I'm not saying this is going to be an incredible litter, but it has the potential to be.  For that reason, the puppies will be kept in house and any pups that don't make the it will be sold.. 

I've seen brittany pups from lessor breeding go for over $1k, but $600-$800 is more realistic.  There's a guy down here in GA who sells pups all day long for $1250.  He has a well known Sire that is a NGDC and AmNGDC.  If I wanted to sell pups, I'd breed to him.  But we want to try and produce pups that are better than what we have now.  IMO, breeding to the dog I mentioned above would be a step backwards. The price on started dogs can very by a pretty large margin.  But 1K-$3k is probably a good average. 

As far as the breeding goes, she hasn't had fertility problems.  She's had timing problems.  Every time she comes in the timing would taker her out of the spring or fall circuit.  I didn't want to do that since she's been in the running for the dog of the year award every year.  If hind sight was 20/20 though, I would have bred her when she came in last November.  We didn't send her out for the circuit this spring because of my new daughter in daycare.  Timing would have been perfect, but we didn't know at the time.  Besides, bringing her in hasn't really been that expensive.  I'm in it for a $200 vet bill, and about $200 in medicine and supplements.  It cost more to ship her to Nebraska than it did to bring her in to season.

[wildweeds]

Cross your fingers that you don't end up with a bigger vet bill,messing with mother nature can lead to your wallet bleeding hundreds profusely,I been there and done it.Also it will be interesting to see what your male to female ratio is in the outcome.Of the half dozen people I have known who used chemical induction of heat, every single one of them had a litter that contained but just one female,litter sizes were average of 8 pups.Sucks when you get 7 males and one lone female.Whether the chemical induction had anything to do with it or not remains a mystery to me. Good luck in your endeavor.

[jetjockey]

Wild

Ive thought about that.  I did a lot of research on Ovuplant, PG-60, and Cabergoline. There's a few vets in the Brit world who use PG-60, but I read too many stories.  Ovuplantis suppose to be decent, bu it's effects aren't great and it's a pain in the azz to administer.  Cabergoline seems to get good results with very few side affects.  In the research I read 80% of females had litters with just over 6 pups on average.  Not perfect, but worth trying.  We shall see.

[jetjockey]

Found out yesterday that the breeding took.  Here's a picture of the two of them from a trial in January down here in GA.  I'm curious to see what color pups we get.  The nearly solid white of the sires line gets passed pretty strong, but so does the roan of my pup.  Now we're crossing our fingers for a healthy litter.

[wildweeds]

Word of advice Jet,get an X-ray at any day after 50,You REALLY need to verify at LEAST 4 pups,Less than 4 and based on the advice of the vet depending on skeletal size,you may need to schedule a C section. Trust me on this,the  financial repercussions of a middle of the night emergency make the pre whelp visit seem like peanuts.My buddy had his trainwreck with it,he ended up with one live pup and two dead ones on the table,the lone pup cost him 3800 when it was all said and done,from breeding to whelp.I know another guy who went 1 for 4,and just recently a gal I know went 1 for 1,that pup would never have made it if it weren't for the c section.GOOD LUCK!

[jetjockey]

For what reason?

[wildweeds]

The reason is......... pups are like goldfish in a tank,they grow to the size of the enviornment,less pups grow to bigger pups in the enviornment just like fish in a tank,bigger pups can get stuck in the exit hole,when a really big one gets stuck in the hole it's off to the vet you go.I was given the fishtank analogy by my vet.The woman who had the one pup litter,that pup was the size of a 5 week old pup at birth,the dog was HUGE!My buddy who has the high dollar dog was the same,that pup at 6 weeks old weighed 8 pounds,at 16 weeks she weighed close to 30.The other reason for it is to have an idea as how many to expect,if you see 6 skeletons and only 4 come out and the pushing stops,you've got trouble and off to the vet you go.

[jetjockey]

I'll see what my trainer says.  He's whelping the pups and is a lot more knowledgable than I am.  I'm crossing my fingers everything goes smooth, but that's also why I have insurance on her. 

[wildweeds]

Well Jet,It's really  should be called playing with mother natures hand,All the instances I've cited have come from AI,Bringing in heat and playing with frozen semen,a 75 dollar X ray is far cheaper than a 2000 dollar midnight C section.I myself personally will never try to mess with mother nature again,I've had my own personal trainwreck it cost me an 8 year old dog that was VERY good and in her prime years.
I help pups by the Robert Wehle method(Wing and Shot book),when they pop out,I give momma about 20 seconds to get the sack off of them,If she fails I intervene tear the sack off  and rub the heck out of them until they scream bloody murder with a dry terrycloth towel.And then I insert them on a nipple
and wait until the next pup arrives.

I'll see what my trainer says.  He's whelping the pups and is a lot more knowledgable than I am.  I'm crossing my fingers everything goes smooth, but that's also why I have insurance on her.

[jetjockey]

Im not sure what methods you used to bring a dog in, but the fertility specialist I'm using says this should be a 100% normal pregnancy.  She's supposedly one of the best in the South.   I talked withers out someof the issues you brought up, and she says she's seen none of those.  Obviously it doesn't mean it can't happen, she hasn't seen it under her dogs care.

[AspenBud]

I don't know about them being like goldfish, but it's worth your while to get the x-ray done. The breeder I got my bitch from does it every time. They do AI regularly with their dogs and the litters are almost always 9-12 pups in size. The general concern for them is having one still floating around inside that didn't make it out. Even with the x-rays they've made the midnight run for a c-section when the count came up short relative to what the x-ray said was in there.

[jetjockey]

As you an see from my other post, we had 7 pups.  4 females and 3 males.  Now we just hope they all make it.  As of yesterday, they were all doing well and were nice and healthy.  They were delivered at day 66.  My trainer said he just didn't think something was right, and he was correct.  The first pup was breach, and that was holding things up.  The vet said there was a good chance the pup would eventually turn , and everything would've fine, but we didn't want to take the chance, so we had a c-section.  Momma and pups are doing very well at this point.  Total cost for fertility and the c-section was $900.  Since we had 7 pups, we're going to sell 1 or 2 which will recoup the costs.  As of now, I'm happy with the decisions we've made.  Pups will get weened in a couple of weeks and momma will go right back to work in preparation for the 1 hr ABC Chicken Championship held in mid Sept.  As of now, I would have no problem using cabergoline for fertility timing again.