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What do you think the deer counts were in this area of the Methow, 1938 ? (total of A,B,C,D)

1-250
13 (7.7%)
251-500
32 (19%)
501 - 1000
34 (20.2%)
1001 +
89 (53%)

Total Members Voted: 168

Voting closed: December 05, 2019, 09:30:11 PM

Author Topic: (updated 12/7 ! ) Totals Posted - Historic Methow valley winter deer survey  (Read 3949 times)

Offline bigmacc

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2019, 04:17:22 PM »


My dad was born in 33 so he was a little young to have remembered the late 30,s, although I do remember reading some of my great grandparents journals(ones that are ledgeable) and I seem to remember some time in the 1930,s there were a couple bad winters and over Thanksgiving they had only counted 700 or 900 come through a particular area over 4 days (:dunno:, hard to read) in a route about 16 miles to the north that would usually produce 2000-3000 over those 4 days, I,m going to role the dice and go with the 251-500 count, betting that 38 could be a year or two after one of those bad winters :dunno:........As far as that article, all I can say is wow, nothing was mentioned about his "specialty's" which is pretty much everything carnivore effecting this herd. Fawn numbers being down is blamed solely on fires which we all agree are a contributing factor and always have been but nothing is mentioned about his beloved bears and their population gain, which consider new born fawns a delicacy. Just sad knowing this will never change and will just keep getting worse, yes it will have peaks and valleys but remember the bar is so low now concerning this herd that any little tick up will be heralded as "the herd is doing great".

Offline Bango skank

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2019, 05:32:59 PM »


My dad was born in 33 so he was a little young to have remembered the late 30,s, although I do remember reading some of my great grandparents journals(ones that are ledgeable) and I seem to remember some time in the 1930,s there were a couple bad winters and over Thanksgiving they had only counted 700 or 900 come through a particular area over 4 days (:dunno:, hard to read) in a route about 16 miles to the north that would usually produce 2000-3000 over those 4 days, I,m going to role the dice and go with the 251-500 count, betting that 38 could be a year or two after one of those bad winters :dunno:........As far as that article, all I can say is wow, nothing was mentioned about his "specialty's" which is pretty much everything carnivore effecting this herd. Fawn numbers being down is blamed solely on fires which we all agree are a contributing factor and always have been but nothing is mentioned about his beloved bears and their population gain, which consider new born fawns a delicacy. Just sad knowing this will never change and will just keep getting worse, yes it will have peaks and valleys but remember the bar is so low now concerning this herd that any little tick up will be heralded as "the herd is doing great".

Did you email wdfw during the spring bear proposal planning about the need to open up spring bear hunts in the area?

Offline bigmacc

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2019, 05:48:08 PM »

No, my son did, this is about the extent of my technology, but trust me, every chance I get to talk with a WDFW employee that will listen, I talk :tup:, My dad did the same back in the 70,s and 80,s, it did a lot for the Methow herd, BUT, that was the Department of Game which I have stated many, many times.

Offline blindluck

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2019, 06:00:41 PM »
This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read about deer hunting. :yike:

 Fitkin said. “Our harvest pressure stays pretty consistent, but if there are less bucks on the landscape overall, hunters probably are going to take a higher percentage.”
If I understand that correctly is he saying if there are two bucks on the mountain and one gets killed 50% of the herd was taken?

Offline boneaddict

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2019, 06:05:20 PM »
Quote
Did you email wdfw during the spring bear proposal planning about the need to open up spring bear hunts in the area?

I did

Offline sooperfly

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2019, 06:49:15 PM »
I realize this is only one year (map actually has figures for both 37 and 38 ) amongst many, so the numbers won't mean too much overall.  Would be better if I had at least a 10 year period of figures.  Also, this is around the depression time and it's possible a few more deer than normal were taken out of season.   :chuckle:

   

Offline boneaddict

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2019, 06:53:10 PM »
I saw photos of the snow levels from 37.   A moose would have had trouble.   Still looking forward to your numbers

Offline ribka

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Offline bigmacc

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2019, 09:05:20 PM »
I saw photos of the snow levels from 37.   A moose would have had trouble.   Still looking forward to your numbers

That could have been what I was trying to decipher from the old journals bone, all I could read was "horrible Win@@@rs, 1@3&, many Fe4T of SNpw. That was what was on the paper, smeared and faded writing. I do remember dad saying there was some bad weather back in the mid-late 40,s that drew some "no spike shoots" for a few years but the only ones I can recall from the 30,s is what we have figured from the journals. I remember one year in the mid 60,s that was supposed to be a "down year", It was actually the year my dad killed that big non-typical that the Game Department came up to camp and weighed that went over 450. Not many deer that year but man the ones we killed were HUGE, if I remember right there were at least 5 or 6 bucks hanging on the pole that went over 400. The next winter was horrible, they figured thats why the deer were so big, one of the biggest winter kills in valley history actually,  and sadly. Seen it with my own eyes, deer, livestock and pets being bulldozed into piles, doused with diesel and a torch being set, seen nothing like it since, parts of the Methow were in the 40-60 below range, it happened within hours, a flash freeze.  The herd bounced back though, help from the Game Department, citizens and the state, take notes folks, thats when the herds were taken care of.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 09:20:31 PM by bigmacc »

Offline bigmacc

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2019, 11:23:34 AM »
Fitkin says down a bit

 :chuckle:


http://methowvalleynews.com/2018/12/26/wdfw-deer-survey-shows-methow-population-down-a-bit/

The thing that keeps jumping out at me concerning this article is that they estimate the mule deer population to be around 47.000 running from the Canadian border to down around Yakima. Just to show a perspective on what has happened, the Methow herd ALONE back in the 60,s during its peak was at around 35,000-40,000, just the Methow herd! It hovered at around 25,000-30,000 until the predator boom and the switchover to the WDFW, I believe now the Methow herd is estimated at around 15,000-17,000 which pretty much everyone I know says is a total BS number and not even close which comes back to their problem of finding better ways of counting, just my suggestion, get out of your $500 an hour helicopters and do it the way they used to, get college kids and volunteers, park them in migration corridors the first couple weeks of November and count away, oh I forgot, those big migrations stopped happening in the Methow about 25 years ago :bash:, my bad, carry on...... We used to see a rig parked on the East Chewuch road every year, parked on the side of the road by where the big Cider outfit is now, just to the south of where Methow Valley Estates is now. It was usually a college kid sitting in the rig counting deer, hundreds would cross that road every day, thousands in a weeks time would cross the pavement there, head east up past the rifle range then hang a right and head towards Davis lake and spread out, some would stop there and others would continue farther south to set up camp for the winter, that also does not happen anymore, last time I seen it was back in the 80,s.

Offline boneaddict

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2019, 12:36:18 PM »
Yep! :yeah:

Offline D Coates

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2019, 01:36:03 PM »
Was told by a old timer not long ago the deer numbers were very low around that time due to some brutal winters could have been 40s?. Up toward bear creek there was a sign that fish and game had hung in the 90 s talking about the thriving migrating mule deer herd that at that time was estimated to be around 25,000. Todays numbers seem to be as low. The IQ of the people in charge of managing this seems to be very low as well. Just my observation very well could be wrong?

Offline timberfaller

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2019, 02:05:12 PM »
Having lived there for 35 years and had family members pioneers there(grandfather helped build the Wangner Mill).   I was lucky enough to have talked to those who lived and hunted back then.  They all said, there was really not to many deer in the whole valley until after WWII.  They told of finding a single set of tracks in the snow and following them for a couple of days "hoping" to come across the animal making the tracks.   So my vote was for the first choice.

I am glad I got to see the "herds" of Mule deer and the Whitetails come in to the valley back in the 70's and 80's and the elk herd in the 80's and early 90's.  But am sad to see the demise of those animals.  Greed was the main cause of their fall in numbers.  Greed by the Game department, now known as WDFW for sales of license and tags(thousands of doe tags) That is the only excuse for having years and years of doe tags, even after they said it would only last for a period of 3 years.  They never quit!!!!  Their "biologist" told them they needed to have a certain, "buck to doe ratio" so the response was harvest more does.  Problem they created was the "herd doe"(those who lead the herd back to their winter ranges)were wiped out.  I seen the "winter ranges" full of animals and I've seen winter ranges with NO animals or very few in them.  Why no or few animals? IMHO the leaders were gone, the new herd animals had no clue where they were.

Now, you'll never convince a "biologist"(at least I haven't met one yet) that, that, has happened.  I was a bit floored when I talked to an individual working for Fitkin studying the Methow herd and was told, "they didn't migrate that winter because of the mild winter"(2017).  Also that the herd(numbers)was in great shape :bash:  Gee, I wonder how that's working out! That same individual hadn't even read the early 1970's Mule Deer Study done by the Game Department. :o 

   
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Offline bigmacc

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2019, 02:48:38 PM »
Having lived there for 35 years and had family members pioneers there(grandfather helped build the Wangner Mill).   I was lucky enough to have talked to those who lived and hunted back then.  They all said, there was really not to many deer in the whole valley until after WWII.  They told of finding a single set of tracks in the snow and following them for a couple of days "hoping" to come across the animal making the tracks.   So my vote was for the first choice.

I am glad I got to see the "herds" of Mule deer and the Whitetails come in to the valley back in the 70's and 80's and the elk herd in the 80's and early 90's.  But am sad to see the demise of those animals.  Greed was the main cause of their fall in numbers.  Greed by the Game department, now known as WDFW for sales of license and tags(thousands of doe tags) That is the only excuse for having years and years of doe tags, even after they said it would only last for a period of 3 years.  They never quit!!!!  Their "biologist" told them they needed to have a certain, "buck to doe ratio" so the response was harvest more does.  Problem they created was the "herd doe"(those who lead the herd back to their winter ranges)were wiped out.  I seen the "winter ranges" full of animals and I've seen winter ranges with NO animals or very few in them.  Why no or few animals? IMHO the leaders were gone, the new herd animals had no clue where they were.

Now, you'll never convince a "biologist"(at least I haven't met one yet) that, that, has happened.  I was a bit floored when I talked to an individual working for Fitkin studying the Methow herd and was told, "they didn't migrate that winter because of the mild winter"(2017).  Also that the herd(numbers)was in great shape :bash:  Gee, I wonder how that's working out! That same individual hadn't even read the early 1970's Mule Deer Study done by the Game Department. :o 

 

I 100% agree with you about the doe tags, we always had 7-8 folks in camp(we would all put in for them) that would draw them then burn them on the first day camp was set up. There is a time for doe tags to be issued now and then, used as a tool to benefit the well being of the herd, not used as a money maker.

Offline D Coates

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Re: Historic Methow valley winter deer survey - take your guess!
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2019, 07:41:36 AM »
Timbefaller is pretty spot on.

 


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