If you love the valley’s deer, please don’t feed them

[bigmacc]

I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. 

That is well evident when one drives through the valley.  Like I said, the WDFW didn't buy up critical habitat(winter ranges) they passed them up!!  Locals, I still have contact with know the problems, bears, wolves, cats and urban sprawl!   Like cattle, old does knew where the winter ranges were at, the high concentration of doe tags back at the beginning, killed a lot of those old does.  I watched winter ranges that went undisturbed for years because the deer didn't know they were there.  Wasn't until in the 90's did I see any deer back in some of them and that was only a few to say at best.

Again, most biologist in government employ, would fail a test on animal husbandry!  But boy do they think they are smart!

Most people I know, know bears are the worst on fawns then any other predator, Wonder why they can't get spring bear hunts back going??  Betcha the department heads are clueless!!

yes bears are hard on fawns, but nothing is stopping hunters from pursuing bears come Aug 1 and yet the same guys bi&^%$ about it are the one who never go out. I read some number that less than 10% of deer and elk hunters actively pursue bears only and what I am talking about is not incidental killing of a bear on a deer hunt, but going out and hunting bears specifically

Our group killed 4 bears this past deer season and had opportunities at 3 others. I have never seen so many bears in the Methow. We had a group of 11 people this year and seen 13 bears over 10 days! Yep I b!$?& about bears and we as a group decided last year to make them a priority. We did some homework and scouting last summer. 4 days into deer season we had seen more bear than deer! Bears are hammering fawns in the Methow, we lost track of fawn kills we found, went into one area we know of that is a known fawning area and found over 2 dozen fawn kills(bone, fur etc) within a mile or so radius! Sickening.

[timberfaller]

  bigmacc!!

Thanks for the help!   Chili and swiss steaks, best made from Bear!!!  Yummmmmmm!

[mountainman]

I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. 

That is well evident when one drives through the valley.  Like I said, the WDFW didn't buy up critical habitat(winter ranges) they passed them up!!  Locals, I still have contact with know the problems, bears, wolves, cats and urban sprawl!   Like cattle, old does knew where the winter ranges were at, the high concentration of doe tags back at the beginning, killed a lot of those old does.  I watched winter ranges that went undisturbed for years because the deer didn't know they were there.  Wasn't until in the 90's did I see any deer back in some of them and that was only a few to say at best.

Again, most biologist in government employ, would fail a test on animal husbandry!  But boy do they think they are smart!

Most people I know, know bears are the worst on fawns then any other predator, Wonder why they can't get spring bear hunts back going??  Betcha the department heads are clueless!!

yes bears are hard on fawns, but nothing is stopping hunters from pursuing bears come Aug 1 and yet the same guys bi&^%$ about it are the one who never go out. I read some number that less than 10% of deer and elk hunters actively pursue bears only and what I am talking about is not incidental killing of a bear on a deer hunt, but going out and hunting bears specifically

Our group killed 4 bears this past deer season and had opportunities at 3 others. I have never seen so many bears in the Methow. We had a group of 11 people this year and seen 13 bears over 10 days! Yep I b!$?& about bears and we as a group decided last year to make them a priority. We did some homework and scouting last summer. 4 days into deer season we had seen more bear than deer! Bears are hammering fawns in the Methow, we lost track of fawn kills we found, went into one area we know of that is a known fawning area and found over 2 dozen fawn kills(bone, fur etc) within a mile or so radius! Sickening.

Sounds like I need to make some trips back home and help out, like the old days! Right Rog?

[bigmacc]

bigmacc!!

Thanks for the help!   Chili and swiss steaks, best made from Bear!!!  Yummmmmmm!

👍👍…A buddy made a bunch of pepperoni for us with jalapeños, yummy!! We will have to give your combo a try👍

[wolfbait]

I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. 

I did 👍. I mentioned that encroachment and habitat loss are also issues but imo, predators and mismanagement of predators were the number one issues. I’ll stand by that til the cows come home. I’ll say it again, if predators were all of the sudden aggressively kept in check like they were pre 95, we would see this herd noticeably bounce back within 3-5 years! I’m not saying they’d be back to numbers from the 1960,s but I think we would all notice a dramatic positive change in the growth of this herd. Predators have been killing thousands upon thousands of deer in this valley over the last few years, I know some former “state employees” and family members who have worked in other states game departments that stated years ago that the Methow was headed towards “predator pit” status and if things kept going the way they were, it would be happening sooner than later, this was back in the early 2000’s.

 

 It is the uncontrolled predators and piss poor management that have put our deer herds in the predator pit. Look out across the landscape and you will see tons of habitat for deer, but there aren't many deer left to use it.
You have how many wolves hitting the deer year around, right now they are killing the hell out of them in Gold Cr., which pack, who the hell knows. WDFW don't care to keep track of how many wolf packs we have, that was proven from the start. There's a pack up the Twisp River, Frost lk area that are working the deer over, they have been there all winter, people hear them howling at night. There's another bunch up around the head of Pipestone Canyon country. Everything the USFWS and the fake environmentalist told the people about wolves when they had talks about bringing them in, turned out to be lies when the wolves hit the ground in the lower 48. Many of these same lies are passed on by state game agencies as true.

Then we have cougars in the low lands, the Valley floor, couple nights ago a cougar came through and killed two doe's within a mile of each other, coyotes and birds had them cleaned up in a couple of days. There are places where cougars ambush deer, I have ridden through a few of them over the years, dead deer everywhere some old, some as fresh as a few days. seems cougar favor the liver in deer I believe, most of these deer were untouched except where they had their ribcage tore open. How many cougars are on the Valley floor? I don't know, but if any of the collars are still on the cougars, I'm sure WDFW would know.

Bears have been a problem for quite a few years now, if you ever happen to ride through a fawning area it will make you sick, it's a massacre. Why the Doe's have fawns in the same area every year I don't know. This summer we had bears in Twisp causing problems, we have had cougars in Twisp in the middle of summer that last few years hunting town deer.
 
Coyotes kill their fare share, and then we have the New People that drive like a batoutahell everywhere they go, they don't slow down when they see deer along the hi way, they just plow through> I had a guy pass me when they could clearly see we were slowed down for the deer crossing the road, they slammed right into one, dragging it down the road a ways. we drove past as they got out to look at what use to be their plastic bumper etc.. Either they can't understand the reason for slowing down or they just don't care. Then we have the same people that think they can just let their dogs run loose because they live in the county, I know of a few this year that ended up becoming deer chasers and I don't think they made it back home.

I think it was Fitkin that wanted a special low land hunt to try to kill off the farmland and town deer a few years back, that didn't fly if I remember right.

 In the 50's the Game Department use to buy old horses and lead them up on their land, they then would shoot them and get the coyotes coming in good, they would lace the horse with 1080. It killed everything that ate on it, there were dead coyotes everywhere. Not saying that's what should be done now, but it clearly shows that they had the welfare of the herds in their front sights.

Look at today with WDFW, they clearly do not want deer hunting, they have done everything in their power to kill off the herds. Years ago farmers use to lease farm land from the game department, and with that lease they had to save a percentage of the hay to feed the deer. You can still find the feed racks where they use to feed them in the winter. They could still do that today, they lease quite a bit of farm land. In 96-97 the locals had been feeding deer for quite some time before WDFW decided they would help also, they brought in truck loads of rich alfalfa, and pellets and handed them out to those who had been feeding. And when they started their own feeding, they didn't get too far off the road, and deer started getting hit on the hi way. Some of them died within a few feet of the feeding stations, they went from starvation to rich feed. Those of us who had been feeding the deer with our stock never lost any that I know of. It was a hard winter on the deer, some of them that had not been fed and pulled through were skin and bone when green up time rolled up, but it wasn't long and you couldn't tell. And now they want to make it against the law to feed deer in the winter? We see some of the same deer we feed come back year after year, along with their offspring. I always wonder where they go to keep from being eaten. I remember a few years back they put out a bunch of doe tags, I talk to a guy at the gas station who had 2 doe's in his rig, he said his party was coming back the next weekend to finish off their tags. It was a slaughter, just what WDFW wanted.

WDFW's actions show that they don't want deer hunting, they want everything controlled by predators, and that is exactly where we are today. At this stage of the game we have plenty of deer habitat just not many deer. How long will WDFW be able to lie about the deer numbers? WDFW have an agenda and it don't include deer hunting, they want to be tax payer funded. 
​

[bigmacc]

I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. 

I did 👍. I mentioned that encroachment and habitat loss are also issues but imo, predators and mismanagement of predators were the number one issues. I’ll stand by that til the cows come home. I’ll say it again, if predators were all of the sudden aggressively kept in check like they were pre 95, we would see this herd noticeably bounce back within 3-5 years! I’m not saying they’d be back to numbers from the 1960,s but I think we would all notice a dramatic positive change in the growth of this herd. Predators have been killing thousands upon thousands of deer in this valley over the last few years, I know some former “state employees” and family members who have worked in other states game departments that stated years ago that the Methow was headed towards “predator pit” status and if things kept going the way they were, it would be happening sooner than later, this was back in the early 2000’s.

 

 It is the uncontrolled predators and piss poor management that have put our deer herds in the predator pit. Look out across the landscape and you will see tons of habitat for deer, but there aren't many deer left to use it.
You have how many wolves hitting the deer year around, right now they are killing the hell out of them in Gold Cr., which pack, who the hell knows. WDFW don't care to keep track of how many wolf packs we have, that was proven from the start. There's a pack up the Twisp River, Frost lk area that are working the deer over, they have been there all winter, people hear them howling at night. There's another bunch up around the head of Pipestone Canyon country. Everything the USFWS and the fake environmentalist told the people about wolves when they had talks about bringing them in, turned out to be lies when the wolves hit the ground in the lower 48. Many of these same lies are passed on by state game agencies as true.

Then we have cougars in the low lands, the Valley floor, couple nights ago a cougar came through and killed two doe's within a mile of each other, coyotes and birds had them cleaned up in a couple of days. There are places where cougars ambush deer, I have ridden through a few of them over the years, dead deer everywhere some old, some as fresh as a few days. seems cougar favor the liver in deer I believe, most of these deer were untouched except where they had their ribcage tore open. How many cougars are on the Valley floor? I don't know, but if any of the collars are still on the cougars, I'm sure WDFW would know.

Bears have been a problem for quite a few years now, if you ever happen to ride through a fawning area it will make you sick, it's a massacre. Why the Doe's have fawns in the same area every year I don't know. This summer we had bears in Twisp causing problems, we have had cougars in Twisp in the middle of summer that last few years hunting town deer.
 
Coyotes kill their fare share, and then we have the New People that drive like a batoutahell everywhere they go, they don't slow down when they see deer along the hi way, they just plow through> I had a guy pass me when they could clearly see we were slowed down for the deer crossing the road, they slammed right into one, dragging it down the road a ways. we drove past as they got out to look at what use to be their plastic bumper etc.. Either they can't understand the reason for slowing down or they just don't care. Then we have the same people that think they can just let their dogs run loose because they live in the county, I know of a few this year that ended up becoming deer chasers and I don't think they made it back home.

I think it was Fitkin that wanted a special low land hunt to try to kill off the farmland and town deer a few years back, that didn't fly if I remember right.

 In the 50's the Game Department use to buy old horses and lead them up on their land, they then would shoot them and get the coyotes coming in good, they would lace the horse with 1080. It killed everything that ate on it, there were dead coyotes everywhere. Not saying that's what should be done now, but it clearly shows that they had the welfare of the herds in their front sights.

Look at today with WDFW, they clearly do not want deer hunting, they have done everything in their power to kill off the herds. Years ago farmers use to lease farm land from the game department, and with that lease they had to save a percentage of the hay to feed the deer. You can still find the feed racks where they use to feed them in the winter. They could still do that today, they lease quite a bit of farm land. In 96-97 the locals had been feeding deer for quite some time before WDFW decided they would help also, they brought in truck loads of rich alfalfa, and pellets and handed them out to those who had been feeding. And when they started their own feeding, they didn't get too far off the road, and deer started getting hit on the hi way. Some of them died within a few feet of the feeding stations, they went from starvation to rich feed. Those of us who had been feeding the deer with our stock never lost any that I know of. It was a hard winter on the deer, some of them that had not been fed and pulled through were skin and bone when green up time rolled up, but it wasn't long and you couldn't tell. And now they want to make it against the law to feed deer in the winter? We see some of the same deer we feed come back year after year, along with their offspring. I always wonder where they go to keep from being eaten. I remember a few years back they put out a bunch of doe tags, I talk to a guy at the gas station who had 2 doe's in his rig, he said his party was coming back the next weekend to finish off their tags. It was a slaughter, just what WDFW wanted.

WDFW's actions show that they don't want deer hunting, they want everything controlled by predators, and that is exactly where we are today. At this stage of the game we have plenty of deer habitat just not many deer. How long will WDFW be able to lie about the deer numbers? WDFW have an agenda and it don't include deer hunting, they want to be tax payer funded. 
​

Agree👍….Bingo.

[buckfvr]

Worse thing for causing increased predation is to crowd ungulates into a smaller area i.e. homes in every winter range in this state.  I remember all too well how the Methow, Colockum, Okanogan, and even the n.e. corner looked back in the 70's.  Even the Wenas and Lt. Murray were loaded with deer/elk by comparison.

Population of this state way more than doubled since then to now.  Baby boomers by the butt loads retired and headed towards those beautiful winter range areas and towns. Its people caused changes exacerbated by rotten agendas and p*ss poor management by yes, wdfw.  Free ride for predators and no management for ungulates, that simple imho.

Add in many thousand california relocates and here we are.   

 

[timberfaller]

bigmacc!!

Thanks for the help!   Chili and swiss steaks, best made from Bear!!!  Yummmmmmm!

👍👍…A buddy made a bunch of pepperoni for us with jalapeños, yummy!! We will have to give your combo a try👍

Find some Ghost pepper,  if you like a little more heat!!  Brother in law usually gets a bear, makes burger out of most of them.  Kidney beens, tomato sauce, lots of chili powder and corn bread! Yum!

[hunter399]

These stupid new proposals and rules the commission is pushing through isn't gonna stop anybody.
At this point ,they might as well just ban all baiting for deer and elk ,year round.

Really what's the difference in feeding November vs December.
Not much.
Or archery season
What's the difference between December vs January.
Nothing that's the difference.

The way I see it .
Your for feeding.
Or against it year round.
Cause most hunting seasons go into winter months.

When are hunters gonna stand together on something.
These biologists are not your friend ,when it comes to wildlife issues.
Trust me there never wrong.
Ask one the'll tell ya.

[wolfbait]

Worse thing for causing increased predation is to crowd ungulates into a smaller area i.e. homes in every winter range in this state.  I remember all too well how the Methow, Colockum, Okanogan, and even the n.e. corner looked back in the 70's.  Even the Wenas and Lt. Murray were loaded with deer/elk by comparison.

Population of this state way more than doubled since then to now.  Baby boomers by the butt loads retired and headed towards those beautiful winter range areas and towns. Its people caused changes exacerbated by rotten agendas and p*ss poor management by yes, wdfw.  Free ride for predators and no management for ungulates, that simple imho.

Add in many thousand california relocates and here we are.   

 

We never had Town Deer until they released wolves on us, and we didn't see mule deer hang on county roads and around homes in the middle of summer, they would be back in the higher elevations. There are many areas I use to hunt that are wiped clean of deer, even areas that are closer to town that were good hunting in the later part of the season, have no deer. But they do have wolves working the areas.

Wolves changed the behavior of the ungulates more than any other predator. From what I have seen the new homes haven't effect the deer population, if anything it has probably saved a few. We saw this in Idaho, MT and Wyoming with the elk moving into the lowlands, and around people, they couldn't drive the elk back to the killing fields with helicopters. It would be handy to say that the deer habitat has been ruin by the urban sprawl, but on the ground it does not show that. At this point habitat isn't the problem, we have plenty of it, just not enough deer to use it.

Last fall my wife and I took an 80 mile drive on back roads that started on the Loup Loup summit, we ended up way up Boulder cr, we saw one deer the whole trip and that was up Boulder. The closer we got to the outskirts of Winthrop the more deer we saw, and of course Winthrop like Twisp is full of deer along with the outskirts. I believe the wolves and excess other predators have destroyed most of the migration. WDFW will run the fake deer numbers until there are no deer left, river bottoms full of cougar are killing the white tail in the summer and winter. In 2010-2011 we saw the slaughter from Mazama to Black canyon, there wasn't a day when there were no fresh wolf kills, and we saw where wolves drove cougars off their kills on several occasions. It has never been the habitat, at least in the Methow. It's wolves and other predators that have ruined the deer harvest. 

These stupid new proposals and rules the commission is pushing through isn't gonna stop anybody.
At this point ,they might as well just ban all baiting for deer and elk ,year round.

Really what's the difference in feeding November vs December.
Not much.
Or archery season
What's the difference between December vs January.
Nothing that's the difference.

The way I see it .
Your for feeding.
Or against it year round.
Cause most hunting seasons go into winter months.

When are hunters gonna stand together on something.
These biologists are not your friend ,when it comes to wildlife issues.
Trust me there never wrong.
Ask one the'll tell ya.

It's too late to save the deer herds, there will never be enough wolf control to make a difference, cutting down on cougars and bears won't make much of a difference at this point, but it would make us feel better, we are pretty much saturated with wolves. Looking back at what we know now, we never had a chance to change the outcome of today, wolves were dumped on us long before they claimed the "migration" started.


I bet the pro-wolf crowd on H-W that parrot fake environmentalist talking points are proud of themselves.

[logola512c]

I'm a little surprised that neither BigMac nor Timberfaller mentioned habitat loss as a factor in the decline of the Methow mule deer herd. Most of the large parcels have become a bunch of small parcels. Each with its own home or cabin equipped with an ATV and barking dog. Ski trails, bike trails and snowmobiles are a big part of the landscape and thousands upon thousands of acres of bitterbrush has been lost to development and fire from Early Winters to the Columbia.River. Predators, hunting and doe tags are knife cuts for sure but without winter range I don't believe the herd will ever recover to resemble what it once was. 

That is well evident when one drives through the valley.  Like I said, the WDFW didn't buy up critical habitat(winter ranges) they passed them up!!  Locals, I still have contact with know the problems, bears, wolves, cats and urban sprawl!   Like cattle, old does knew where the winter ranges were at, the high concentration of doe tags back at the beginning, killed a lot of those old does.  I watched winter ranges that went undisturbed for years because the deer didn't know they were there.  Wasn't until in the 90's did I see any deer back in some of them and that was only a few to say at best.

Again, most biologist in government employ, would fail a test on animal husbandry!  But boy do they think they are smart!

Most people I know, know bears are the worst on fawns then any other predator, Wonder why they can't get spring bear hunts back going??  Betcha the department heads are clueless!!

yes bears are hard on fawns, but nothing is stopping hunters from pursuing bears come Aug 1 and yet the same guys bi&^%$ about it are the one who never go out. I read some number that less than 10% of deer and elk hunters actively pursue bears only and what I am talking about is not incidental killing of a bear on a deer hunt, but going out and hunting bears specifically

I spend a lot of dedicated time bear hunting in the I-90 corridor (5 bears in the last 4 years).  If I could get some reliable poop about where the best public land is to hunt bears in the Methow, I'd be willing to make the trek up there to whack some bears in early August, but it's a bit of a time commitment to get boots on the ground and figure it our from scratch from Seattle.

[timberfaller]

"but nothing is stopping hunters from pursuing bears come Aug 1" quote


Yes, but do you know why you get to hunt in August??   It was a trade off from banning hounds and baiting.  IMHO, heat and bear hunting don't go well together.   Since the ban, bear populations have exploded.  As in physics, for every action, there is a re-action.

Bring back hounds and baiting and things will improve.

[buckfvr]

So I can remember hunting with hounds and bait in western wa back when it was legal and did it both ways.  Towards the end, you pretty much had to bait or get behind hounds to find bear.  Right now, a boot hunter can get his 2 bear if he really wants to, especially here in ne wa.  Move forward 30-40 years, human population has sky rocketed, developments have replaced many lowland hunting areas, and I absolutely disagree with dogs and bait = problem solved.  Back in the 70s and early 80s, you couldnt go in the woods without stumbling on bait piles and you could literally hear hounds in any clear cut (and now most of those cuts are closed to vehicles) in western wa.

A buddy of mine who lives in Idaho in a unit open for hounds/bait said its not even worth hunting bear, and he was always an avid bear hunter.  Ya theres bear there, mostly small runners, matures are few and far between.

Its not the available methods here in wa., rather its the lack of interest.  Takes a bunch of effort including preparation for processing the carcass in the heat, but hound hunting and baiting arent exactly easy either.   

[Skyvalhunter]

Back to the deer issue. The deer at my  place in the Methow have been eating up to 2 inch branches as the valley grouse has been picked over. More snow on the way. I am still feeding but things are looking bleak. My friend at Twisp has 30 whitetail coming to feed at his place. Screw the no feeding idea.

[vandeman17]

A grower of mine in the Methow has 200-300 deer in her orchard every day. She said that they still have around 3 feet of snow and because so much of it has compacted, the deer are able to reach pretty far up the trees are a wreaking havoc. Been working with WDFW but she said its not the smoothest or easiest thing to do