Shot placement for black bears.

[dilleytech]

Sorry dilleytech but that’s flat wrong. There simply ISNT anything “forward” of the heart and great vessels in the thorax of an animal like that. There’s no extra space inside an organism. Every organ is in immediate and direct apposition with its neighboring organ. No matter how far forward your shot is, if it’s behind the bones of the front leg on a broadside bear, you are in the chest. In fact, farther forward shots hit bigger vessels before they branch and are MORE quickly lethal.

My experience with shot placement and examining the organs After has show this pic to be spot on. Disagree all you would like.

The born and raised guys 10 ringed a bear right in the black spot above the heart and in front of the lungs on that picture with a 308. They tracked blood for a while and never found it.
I hit a bear in the same spot with my bow a few years ago from 20yds, Three of us saw the shot hit perfectly behind the shoulder with a complete passthrough. After waiting about 25 minutes we followed what looked like gallons of blood. After a few hundered yards the blood trail petered out and we started a grid search. Ended up not finding it.

I’m not 100% sure if bear vitals are farther back, but the two situations above have made me wonder........

Exactly. The only bear I have lost I hit right right behind the shoulder and just a tad above the middle. Just like you describe. If your going to aim forward it need to be high shoulder with a gun that can handle it. Heck I arrowed a bear a little behind the middle of the middle and hit nothing but liver and that bear went 60 yards.

[mdbuck5x5]

Interesting thread to read and really good info for anyone from rookies to experienced bear hunters to learn from. The 2 bears I killed this year were quite different. The first one a yearling boar I had to shoot twice. First shot was about 80 yards was broadside busted the shoulder and lunged him but had to put another in his neck to finish him off. The second one a much bigger sow she was standing fairly straight on to me at 159 yds and I put it thru her chest clipping the boiler room she nosed dived rolled 20 yds and that was it no need for a follow up. Both bears killed with a 30.06 180 grain. I think shot placement is obviously key but no doubt bears are some tough animals that can withstand a lot.

[dilleytech]

To add to the shot placement thread. My most recent bear I shot further back and higher then I was aiming. Grass bullet deflection or pulled it. Idk but regardless this was still a double lung hit.

[dyhardhuntr]

I was listening to the gritty podcast on my way to and from my spring bear adventures. They had a good podcast on shot placement for bears. Both Brian and Ryan say they dissect the bear in half horizontally and vertically and aim where those 2 points meet which is dead center of the bears body. The vitals on a bear are further back then one would think.


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[Jonathan_S]

I was listening to the gritty podcast on my way to and from my spring bear adventures. They had a good podcast on shot placement for bears. Both Brian and Ryan say they dissect the bear in half horizontally and vertically and aim where those 2 points meet which is dead center of the bears body. The vitals on a bear are further back then one would think.


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I know this is a bear thread but that is also true of deer and elk.

[pianoman9701]

It is interesting to see the differences between Deer and elk vitals, and those of a black bear. Whereas the heart of the ungulates is directly above the foreleg, that of the bear is just behind, about the same distance from the bottom of the torso. Remember that with the bear, hair hangs down about 4-6 inches below the bottom of the torso. The lungs toward the front on the black bear and elk start at roughly the same place. But the position of the elk's is much more vertical, as the bears seems more horizontal. As many have pointed out, the more effective bear shot is farther back, about 1/4 to 1/3of the torso from the chest.

[jrebel]

To add to the shot placement thread. My most recent bear I shot further back and higher then I was aiming. Grass bullet deflection or pulled it. Idk but regardless this was still a double lung hit.

Glad you recovered the bear.  To me that is to far back...by at least 6 inches.  Depending on how it was standing, if pullet impacted on inspiration or expiration, amount of shock damage, etc, etc, etc,.....can turn a shot too far back into a shot that destroys lung tissue or is a complete gut shot.  Out of curiosity, was any of the intestines / stomach damaged with that shot? 

The reason I don't like that placement, assuming you got the lower lobes of the lungs.....is there is absolutely no margin of error if the shot was a little bit to the right (as the picture sits).  I have to believe that a couple inches to the right is 100% a gut shot. 

The half and half rule is a bad rule for the above mentioned reason.  If your are even a little far back from the half way point....you gut shot them.  Pick the front third half way up the body and give yourself a good margin of error.  I also like the shoulder shot if you have a good strong bullet.  I will not take a shoulder shot with non bonded bullets.....as I have pictures of one that is still walking around after gernading a 212 grain ELD-X on the onside shoulder. 

Again...happy you recovered the bear!!  Another fawn killer down.   

[pianoman9701]

WTG recovering your kill. 

[duckmen1]

To add to the shot placement thread. My most recent bear I shot further back and higher then I was aiming. Grass bullet deflection or pulled it. Idk but regardless this was still a double lung hit.

Glad you recovered the bear.  To me that is to far back...by at least 6 inches.  Depending on how it was standing, if pullet impacted on inspiration or expiration, amount of shock damage, etc, etc, etc,.....can turn a shot too far back into a shot that destroys lung tissue or is a complete gut shot.  Out of curiosity, was any of the intestines / stomach damaged with that shot? 

The reason I don't like that placement, assuming you got the lower lobes of the lungs.....is there is absolutely no margin of error if the shot was a little bit to the right (as the picture sits).  I have to believe that a couple inches to the right is 100% a gut shot. 

The half and half rule is a bad rule for the above mentioned reason.  If your are even a little far back from the half way point....you gut shot them.  Pick the front third half way up the body and give yourself a good margin of error.  I also like the shoulder shot if you have a good strong bullet.  I will not take a shoulder shot with non bonded bullets.....as I have pictures of one that is still walking around after gernading a 212 grain ELD-X on the onside shoulder. 

Again...happy you recovered the bear!!  Another fawn killer down.   

I agree with everything you said. I just was wondering more info about the ELDx scenario. Could you touch on more about the load you were using and speed of the bullet and such. I know someone that has always said those bullets are no good. But I have watched so many pass through shots on deer including both shoulders hit. Complete pass throughs. One elk shot in the chest and dropped it with a ton of penetration. As well as a recent bear shot in the shoulder which dropped and rolled and as it rolled an insurance shot was taken just behind the shoulder. Both those shots were complete pass throughs too. The bear was with a 6.5 creedmore and others were a mix of 6.5 creedmore and 28 nosler. Just asking to gain more knowledge of these bullets from others experience as well as our own. At this time my only thought is maybe to high of speeds on magnum loads may cause issues but not sure. Thanks for any info

[jrebel]

To add to the shot placement thread. My most recent bear I shot further back and higher then I was aiming. Grass bullet deflection or pulled it. Idk but regardless this was still a double lung hit.

Glad you recovered the bear.  To me that is to far back...by at least 6 inches.  Depending on how it was standing, if pullet impacted on inspiration or expiration, amount of shock damage, etc, etc, etc,.....can turn a shot too far back into a shot that destroys lung tissue or is a complete gut shot.  Out of curiosity, was any of the intestines / stomach damaged with that shot? 

The reason I don't like that placement, assuming you got the lower lobes of the lungs.....is there is absolutely no margin of error if the shot was a little bit to the right (as the picture sits).  I have to believe that a couple inches to the right is 100% a gut shot. 

The half and half rule is a bad rule for the above mentioned reason.  If your are even a little far back from the half way point....you gut shot them.  Pick the front third half way up the body and give yourself a good margin of error.  I also like the shoulder shot if you have a good strong bullet.  I will not take a shoulder shot with non bonded bullets.....as I have pictures of one that is still walking around after gernading a 212 grain ELD-X on the onside shoulder. 

Again...happy you recovered the bear!!  Another fawn killer down.   

I agree with everything you said. I just was wondering more info about the ELDx scenario. Could you touch on more about the load you were using and speed of the bullet and such. I know someone that has always said those bullets are no good. But I have watched so many pass through shots on deer including both shoulders hit. Complete pass throughs. One elk shot in the chest and dropped it with a ton of penetration. As well as a recent bear shot in the shoulder which dropped and rolled and as it rolled an insurance shot was taken just behind the shoulder. Both those shots were complete pass throughs too. The bear was with a 6.5 creedmore and others were a mix of 6.5 creedmore and 28 nosler. Just asking to gain more knowledge of these bullets from others experience as well as our own. At this time my only thought is maybe to high of speeds on magnum loads may cause issues but not sure. Thanks for any info

300 win mag 26" barrel handloaded rounds.  H1000 behind a 212 grain ELD-X 2840 fps muzzle velocity.  Killed a bear and two moose with the rifle using this set up. 

First moose was a 40 yard shot so pretty high velocities.....shot number one to the head, shot number two and three behind the shoulder broadside.  The head shot definitely was effective and was a kill shot.  The moose kept standing so I hit him two more times behind the shoulder.  Both #2 and #3 shots the bullets exploded in the chest cavity, neither exited.  Never found any big pieces of the bullet....but in all honesty didn't look that hard. 

Second moose was 300 yards broadside.  Shot number one was behind the shoulder and it was a complete pass through with total jacket separation.  Diameter of the bullet entrance and exit with the jacket being recovered in the chest.  Shot number two was to the neck and the bullet separated and did not exit. 

Bear # 1.....Three shots to kill it.  First shot was at 200 yards steep uphill.  Broke onside front leg and destroyed offside shoulder with complete pass through.  Bear rolls down the hill and I find him in the ditch still alive.  Second shot through the back and out of the chest at 50 yards....complete pass through with no expansion or internal damage.  Third shot to the back of the head.  First shot was definitely a kill shot and I would say the bullet performed very well.  Second shot was a complete failure and the third / head shot was clearly effective. 

The bullets are very unpredictable in their performance in my humble opinion.  If I was going to continue to use them, I would never shoot the shoulder.....and always shoot the pocket or behind the shoulder.  They shoot and group very well.  They are very easy to load for.  I won't shoot them any more and will go back to my tried and true Nosler Accubond and Partitions.  I have 500 of the 212 ELD-X and they will be loaded in my 300 blackout for subsonic rounds to bang steel with. 

Last spring and the complete bullet failure.  500 yards broadside, level shot across canyon with no wind.  Aiming for high shoulder to put the bear on the ground so I didn't have to look for it in the brush at the bottom of a steep ravine.  Shoot and watch impact on high shoulder.  The bear acts hit, rolls and then walks side hill across the canyon.  Never got a second shot due to the fact it was moving.  An hour later I make it to the point of impact and find a softball tuft of hair.  I find blood immediately....though not a lot and start tracking.  The blood is easy to track for approx 50 yards and then gets real sparse.  Needless to say I never find the bear.  I go back for three weeks looking for birds and predators hoping to find the bear.....nothing.  Fast forward to this spring....cameras all over the same ridge.  Low and behold....I have pics of the same bear very much alive.  It is missing a patch of hair on the onside high shoulder approx 3" in diameter.  An accubond or Partition would have destroyed that bear.....the ELD-X blew up on impact. 

I hope to track the same bear down this fall.....fingers crossed.  It is a beautiful red color bear that I guess to be 250-300 lbs.   

[duckmen1]

To add to the shot placement thread. My most recent bear I shot further back and higher then I was aiming. Grass bullet deflection or pulled it. Idk but regardless this was still a double lung hit.

Glad you recovered the bear.  To me that is to far back...by at least 6 inches.  Depending on how it was standing, if pullet impacted on inspiration or expiration, amount of shock damage, etc, etc, etc,.....can turn a shot too far back into a shot that destroys lung tissue or is a complete gut shot.  Out of curiosity, was any of the intestines / stomach damaged with that shot? 

The reason I don't like that placement, assuming you got the lower lobes of the lungs.....is there is absolutely no margin of error if the shot was a little bit to the right (as the picture sits).  I have to believe that a couple inches to the right is 100% a gut shot. 

The half and half rule is a bad rule for the above mentioned reason.  If your are even a little far back from the half way point....you gut shot them.  Pick the front third half way up the body and give yourself a good margin of error.  I also like the shoulder shot if you have a good strong bullet.  I will not take a shoulder shot with non bonded bullets.....as I have pictures of one that is still walking around after gernading a 212 grain ELD-X on the onside shoulder. 

Again...happy you recovered the bear!!  Another fawn killer down.   

I agree with everything you said. I just was wondering more info about the ELDx scenario. Could you touch on more about the load you were using and speed of the bullet and such. I know someone that has always said those bullets are no good. But I have watched so many pass through shots on deer including both shoulders hit. Complete pass throughs. One elk shot in the chest and dropped it with a ton of penetration. As well as a recent bear shot in the shoulder which dropped and rolled and as it rolled an insurance shot was taken just behind the shoulder. Both those shots were complete pass throughs too. The bear was with a 6.5 creedmore and others were a mix of 6.5 creedmore and 28 nosler. Just asking to gain more knowledge of these bullets from others experience as well as our own. At this time my only thought is maybe to high of speeds on magnum loads may cause issues but not sure. Thanks for any info

300 win mag 26" barrel handloaded rounds.  H1000 behind a 212 grain ELD-X 2840 fps muzzle velocity.  Killed a bear and two moose with the rifle using this set up. 

First moose was a 40 yard shot so pretty high velocities.....shot number one to the head, shot number two and three behind the shoulder broadside.  The head shot definitely was effective and was a kill shot.  The moose kept standing so I hit him two more times behind the shoulder.  Both #2 and #3 shots the bullets exploded in the chest cavity, neither exited.  Never found any big pieces of the bullet....but in all honesty didn't look that hard. 

Second moose was 300 yards broadside.  Shot number one was behind the shoulder and it was a complete pass through with total jacket separation.  Diameter of the bullet entrance and exit with the jacket being recovered in the chest.  Shot number two was to the neck and the bullet separated and did not exit. 

Bear # 1.....Three shots to kill it.  First shot was at 200 yards steep uphill.  Broke onside front leg and destroyed offside shoulder with complete pass through.  Bear rolls down the hill and I find him in the ditch still alive.  Second shot through the back and out of the chest at 50 yards....complete pass through with no expansion or internal damage.  Third shot to the back of the head.  First shot was definitely a kill shot and I would say the bullet performed very well.  Second shot was a complete failure and the third / head shot was clearly effective. 

The bullets are very unpredictable in their performance in my humble opinion.  If I was going to continue to use them, I would never shoot the shoulder.....and always shoot the pocket or behind the shoulder.  They shoot and group very well.  They are very easy to load for.  I won't shoot them any more and will go back to my tried and true Nosler Accubond and Partitions.  I have 500 of the 212 ELD-X and they will be loaded in my 300 blackout for subsonic rounds to bang steel with. 

Last spring and the complete bullet failure.  500 yards broadside, level shot across canyon with no wind.  Aiming for high shoulder to put the bear on the ground so I didn't have to look for it in the brush at the bottom of a steep ravine.  Shoot and watch impact on high shoulder.  The bear acts hit, rolls and then walks side hill across the canyon.  Never got a second shot due to the fact it was moving.  An hour later I make it to the point of impact and find a softball tuft of hair.  I find blood immediately....though not a lot and start tracking.  The blood is easy to track for approx 50 yards and then gets real sparse.  Needless to say I never find the bear.  I go back for three weeks looking for birds and predators hoping to find the bear.....nothing.  Fast forward to this spring....cameras all over the same ridge.  Low and behold....I have pics of the same bear very much alive.  It is missing a patch of hair on the onside high shoulder approx 3" in diameter.  An accubond or Partition would have destroyed that bear.....the ELD-X blew up on impact. 

I hope to track the same bear down this fall.....fingers crossed.  It is a beautiful red color bear that I guess to be 250-300 lbs.

Hey thank you for taking the time to respond about your experiences. Very much appreciated. A lot of good info in your post. And I will say I agree with you about partitions. I love those bullets. One of my favorites. Accubonds are great too.

[Okanagan]

Excellent info in this thread.  Good that it is permanently handy to reference.

That said, my personal preference is to break some running gear to immobilize or slow a bear plus destroy enough vitals to kill it soon with the same first shot.  Doesn’t always happen but is the goal.

 So I aim to have a deep penetrating bullet pass through vitals and shoulder bone/spine or reverse of that sequence.  Angles and anatomy position determine where the bullet enters the body. Slow or stop him and you get a second shot if needed.

I’ve killed about a dozen bears and in various ways been in on 45 or 50, including archery, rifles from .22 to .375 and one with a tire iron (fun cowboy roping story but not pertinent here except that it killed the bear).  IME black bears have usually been relatively easy to kill on the tenacity-of-life scale, with a few strong exceptions.

A double lung will kill for sure, maybe not super quick, depending mainly on the frangibility of the bullet. Bear fat is bad to plug holes and stop leaks, preventing a blood trail. OTOH the biggest bear I’ve been in on was double lunged behind the shoulder broadside with 180 grain Swift A-frame in .30-06 and went 10 yards. It worked.

Re black bear reaction to being shot:  many of them will drop at the touch of a bullet, whether it did vital damage or not.  One was merely grazed and dropped.  Cycle in another round ASAP and be ready to shoot again.  If the bear gets up, shoot again, no matter how confident you are in the first shot.  Weird things happen sometimes to well-aimed bullets.  I have stories of bears getting up and leaving.

[HUNTINCOUPLE]

Again excellent info here! I love sliding a arrow in them. Very potent.

[Crunchy]

Right behind the shoulder usually works. This bear didn’t go 40 yards after the shot.

[dilleytech]

To add to the shot placement thread. My most recent bear I shot further back and higher then I was aiming. Grass bullet deflection or pulled it. Idk but regardless this was still a double lung hit.

Glad you recovered the bear.  To me that is to far back...by at least 6 inches.  Depending on how it was standing, if pullet impacted on inspiration or expiration, amount of shock damage, etc, etc, etc,.....can turn a shot too far back into a shot that destroys lung tissue or is a complete gut shot.  Out of curiosity, was any of the intestines / stomach damaged with that shot? 

The reason I don't like that placement, assuming you got the lower lobes of the lungs.....is there is absolutely no margin of error if the shot was a little bit to the right (as the picture sits).  I have to believe that a couple inches to the right is 100% a gut shot. 

The half and half rule is a bad rule for the above mentioned reason.  If your are even a little far back from the half way point....you gut shot them.  Pick the front third half way up the body and give yourself a good margin of error.  I also like the shoulder shot if you have a good strong bullet.  I will not take a shoulder shot with non bonded bullets.....as I have pictures of one that is still walking around after gernading a 212 grain ELD-X on the onside shoulder. 

Again...happy you recovered the bear!!  Another fawn killer down.   

Like I said it wasn’t where I was aiming but yes this was double lung. No the guts were not hit this is all in front of the diaphragm about 4 ribs from the last rib. A couple inches further back would have been liver. The picture posted above would put the lungs in the neck. That’s a very bad diagram of bear vitals. This bear went about 60 yards. I shot a bear in the liver once with my bow that went 70 yards.