Elk will be gone in Idaho by 2012

[Bob33]

"Bigfoot".

There - now this thread can continue on for another three years.

[jasnt]

       

[M_ray]

This reminds me of a Monte Python skit about swallows...  This thread should rest in peace.  It's clear that elk are not gone from Idaho.

There are Elk in Idaho? 

[bearpaw]

grazing might well be a mute point, too much livestock losses to continue that practice for much longer.  Unfortunately this also curtails PRIVATE land grazing, more livestock looses have occurred on private lands than public in WA.  To me this is a loss of private property rights.

So in keeping with the theme of this thread, are you projecting there will be no more open grazing in NE Wa soon because of wolves?

Ask Dave Dashiell if he'll run his sheep out on private Hancock land again, I almost bet Hancock drops their lease programs and just sprays instead.
They had the sheep out there to help with some invasive weed but with all the media attention I'll wager they resort to herbicides and forgo grazing. 

As yet I don't know any ranchers giving up their leases. 

I guess the ball is in WDFW's court and if you're asking me to predict if they'll manage wolves to a level that grazing can happen with minimal conflict...I'm dubious.

I'll wager that someone with some money would be willing to scoop up those leases and throw cows on them. There is a point where, if the operation is big enough, a lot of loss can be absorbed and money still made. For now at least I'm guessing this is more of a small herd problem???     

Horn hunters are still finding Dashiel's dead sheep. It's really disgusting to hear someone say it's a small herd problem, it shouldn't matter how small your herd is, you should be able to graze on private land.

Stupid people are the real problem! 

McIrvins are the largest cattle ranchers in NE WA. Wolves cost them over $100,000 in a single summer, they cannot withstand that every year. Their neighbor is not as large but he still depends on his cattle for an income and what I'm hearing is if he has another year with big losses to wolves he will have to give up. He will have been run out of business by wolves attacking his cattle on his own land.

Stupid people are the real problem! 

[bearpaw]

This reminds me of a Monte Python skit about swallows...  This thread should rest in peace.  It's clear that elk are not gone from Idaho.

True.... Thanks to a change in wolf management, multiple wolf tags, and up to year round wolf seasons in some areas, Idaho is now beginning to rebound in some of the wolf impacted areas! No doubt the title was overstated and likely impossible, but if serious wolf management not been allowed after this topic was started, nobody knows how many more herds would have been impacted. 

[wolfbait]

So.... help me get this straight.  Cattle eating the deer/elk browse is good for deer and elk because it stimulates the browse??  You guys are kidding right?

 

It's amazing to me that anybody can say that grazing benefits wildlife habitat with a straight face. Why do you think bighorn sheep numbers are only a very small fraction of what they were in the past? That's just one example. For those who say grazing benefits wildlife habitat, which college did you go to and what did you study?

On multiple use public rangeland - grazing has its place among the competing uses for those public resources.  Managed properly, the negative impacts of grazing on the public's fish and wildlife can be minimized.  For someone to say grazing is good for wildlife is just another egregious example of how some will distort the truth and try to pull the wool over sportsmens eyes.  Bighorn sheep interactions with domestic sheep are a classic example of a few benefiting at the demise of an extraordinary public resource.

Grazing as a Habitat Management Tool
http://www.landsoftexasmagazine.com/articles/grazing-as-a-habitat-management-tool


USDA partnership improving sage-grouse habitat, grazing lands

"American ranchers are working with us to help sage-grouse because they know they are helping an at-risk bird while also improving the food available for their livestock," Bonnie said. "As the saying goes, 'What's good for the bird is good for the herd." http://beefproducer.com/story-usda-partnership-improving-sage-grouse-habitat-grazing-lands-10-123952


Cattle Can Improve Sagebrush Habitat With a Little Training

http://onpasture.com/2015/01/26/cattle-can-improve-sagebrush-habitat-with-a-little-training/#sthash.51sqmpCb.dpuf



Fall Grazing With Sheep To Improve Sage-Grouse Habitat
https://extension.usu.edu/rangelands/htm/utah-projects/jmsspw/improving-sagegrouse-habitat/

Conservation Grazing for Land Stewardship
http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/86641.html

Planned Grazing 8 - Wildlife in the Mix

http://www.thecattlemanmagazine.com/archives/2010/08/planned_grazing_8.html

CATTLE MANAGEMENT TO ENHANCE WILDLIFE HABITAT IN SOUTH TEXAS

http://krirm.tamuk.edu/text/Resources/CattleManagement_OrtegaandBryant.pdf


Using Cows to Improve Wildlife Habitat and Increase Pronghorn

http://circleranchtx.com/cows-and-pronghorn/

Improving Quality of Winter Forage for Elk by cattle Grazing
http://www.gardnerfiles.com/23-i%20%20%20Improving%20Winter%20Forage%20by%20Grazing%20Cattle.pdf

Improving Elk Habitat Characteristics with Livestock Grazing

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/eoarc/sites/default/files/publication/404.pdf

Elk and Cattle Grazing Can Be Complementary
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2111/RANGELANDS-D-12-00068.1

Some of us learned that grazing is beneficial to ungulates and other wildlife. 

[WAcoyotehunter]

http://www.cof.orst.edu/hart/hartimages.html

This thread still reminds me of a monte python skit.... The one where the knight (wolfbait in this case) is guarding the bridge!

Post all the links and evidence you want about how good cows CAN be for habitat.  WHEN PASTURED PROPERLY they can provide some benefits.  That is virtually never the case.  Public grazing costs the taxpayers and stakeholders millions of dollars every year in WA state.  Because its not done the way all the links and data you provide call for.

[idahohuntr]

Exactly...Tragedy of the Commons. 

[wolfbait]

http://www.cof.orst.edu/hart/hartimages.html

This thread still reminds me of a monte python skit.... The one where the knight (wolfbait in this case) is guarding the bridge!

Post all the links and evidence you want about how good cows CAN be for habitat.  WHEN PASTURED PROPERLY they can provide some benefits.  That is virtually never the case.  Public grazing costs the taxpayers and stakeholders millions of dollars every year in WA state.  Because its not done the way all the links and data you provide call for.

What ever you say Wacoyote, I'm sure you know it all.

You seem concerned with taxpayer money, I wonder if you have any idea how much the wolves will cost the taxpayers of WA by the time WA is allowed to manage wolves? If that ever happens.

[bearpaw]

So a completly different question... Possibly for BP... if you put up a high fence operation do you have to vacate animals from your property before you fence it? Is there a specific eviciton process for the states unwanted game?
Your not allowed to "Farm" deer or elk in wa.... so???

 This might (or not) answer your queston, but a guy in Id put up a high fence(he is farming elk and bison maybe deer). He had to have all the native game (deer mostly) out of there and have an inspection. If there were any left inside  the fence I was told it was a big deal as in large fine or something. I dont know how he got all the deer out but he did and they inspected it. Its a decent size area from the looks of it maybe a few hundred acres and some mountainous and heavily treed. Seems like it would have been easy for a few deer to hide.

  That is the law in Idaho.

In Washington you can't game farm deer or elk but you can high fence your property and hunt the wild deer and elk within during regular seasons if you are a licensed hunter.

[mountainman]

Don't know about "reports" and" studies"..most times it just a bunch of jibberish used to justify someone's paycheck. And answers are normally drug out as long as possible so as to keep those paychecks coming as long as possible..by that time, the damage sometimes cannot be undone, where in lies the irony of this whole topic...
   Topics like the wolf issue, or the many other topics found on sites like this, are often led astray by internet jockeys posting" I read this" or" I heard this somewhere"..I choose to believe what my own eyes see, and growing up in the mountains during a time with no wolves, managed logging, controlled burning, open range grazing, it was country FULL of some of the best hunting, game numbers, trophy animals, and prime habitat. Wolfbait and I both remember cattle in the hills, and some of the biggest mulies came from the" Driveway" where sheep were driven throughout the summer months. The" habitat" now is only a remnant of what it was. So is it wildlife. Sad...

[idaho guy]

Don't know about "reports" and" studies"..most times it just a bunch of jibberish used to justify someone's paycheck. And answers are normally drug out as long as possible so as to keep those paychecks coming as long as possible..by that time, the damage sometimes cannot be undone, where in lies the irony of this whole topic...
   Topics like the wolf issue, or the many other topics found on sites like this, are often led astray by internet jockeys posting" I read this" or" I heard this somewhere"..I choose to believe what my own eyes see, and growing up in the mountains during a time with no wolves, managed logging, controlled burning, open range grazing, it was country FULL of some of the best hunting, game numbers, trophy animals, and prime habitat. Wolfbait and I both remember cattle in the hills, and some of the biggest mulies came from the" Driveway" where sheep were driven throughout the summer months. The" habitat" now is only a remnant of what it was. So is it wildlife. Sad...
[/quo




 :yeah:well said I agree 100 percent

[KFhunter]

grazing might well be a mute point, too much livestock losses to continue that practice for much longer.  Unfortunately this also curtails PRIVATE land grazing, more livestock looses have occurred on private lands than public in WA.  To me this is a loss of private property rights.

So in keeping with the theme of this thread, are you projecting there will be no more open grazing in NE Wa soon because of wolves?

Ask Dave Dashiell if he'll run his sheep out on private Hancock land again, I almost bet Hancock drops their lease programs and just sprays instead.
They had the sheep out there to help with some invasive weed but with all the media attention I'll wager they resort to herbicides and forgo grazing. 

As yet I don't know any ranchers giving up their leases. 

I guess the ball is in WDFW's court and if you're asking me to predict if they'll manage wolves to a level that grazing can happen with minimal conflict...I'm dubious.

I'll wager that someone with some money would be willing to scoop up those leases and throw cows on them. There is a point where, if the operation is big enough, a lot of loss can be absorbed and money still made. For now at least I'm guessing this is more of a small herd problem???     

Horn hunters are still finding Dashiel's dead sheep. It's really disgusting to hear someone say it's a small herd problem, it shouldn't matter how small your herd is, you should be able to graze on private land.

Stupid people are the real problem! 

McIrvins are the largest cattle ranchers in NE WA. Wolves cost them over $100,000 in a single summer, they cannot withstand that every year. Their neighbor is not as large but he still depends on his cattle for an income and what I'm hearing is if he has another year with big losses to wolves he will have to give up. He will have been run out of business by wolves attacking his cattle on his own land.

Stupid people are the real problem! 

    We can debate public lands grazing with the anti's that's one thing, but most the wolf attacks are happening on private ground. 


It's unacceptable to not be able to utilize a person's own private lands to raise livestock.

[bobcat]

I agree it's unfortunate, if someone feels they can no longer afford to raise livestock on their land because of wolves. But I'm not sure how it can be said that it's "unacceptable." 

Even if wolves were taken off the state's endangered species list, and if there was an open hunting season on wolves, would that really change anything?

Would just having a hunting season all of a sudden stop all livestock loss to wolves? I very much doubt it.

[KFhunter]

stop all?  no for sure not.

I point to Idaho for an example, without action by both the state and landowners (SSS too) the wolf problem would be far worse.  They were hit by wolves harder than WA and they've been able to keep functioning both in running livestock and keeping some decent Elk hunts going.

They've paved the way, all we need to do is learn from their example.