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Author Topic: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington  (Read 120447 times)

Offline jager

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #465 on: June 08, 2011, 08:42:00 PM »
So 15 breeding pairs is how many wolves +/- 400?


In 2008 Idaho had An estimated 846 wolves in about 88
packs, at least 39 of which were documented as breeding pairs. There has been nearly an 15% increase every year.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 08:56:36 PM by jager »

Offline mulehunter

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #466 on: June 08, 2011, 09:01:50 PM »
So 15 breeding pairs is how many wolves +/- 400?


In 2008 Idaho had An estimated 846 wolves in about 88
packs, at least 39 of which were documented as breeding pairs. There has been nearly an 15% increase every year.
:yeah:  that's question we all need to know.  Why they refused open wolf hunt after it hit 40 BP.  I am sure u all washington people to understand. E.G. keep it closed until 88 B.P. and they are gonna close it as hard as they try to not allow idaho open wolf hunt.

Mulehunter.

Offline Jack Diamond

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #467 on: June 08, 2011, 09:02:38 PM »
Robert - I have noticed your only response to my query was about a disease, if you take anything away from this ,understand we are passionate about our beliefs and not cold and robotic. we do get carried away with the heat of the discussion,as it is a topic we are having to deal with by no choice of our own. And yes we will assemble  and engage our politicions, and hold their feet to the fire and hold the judges and their federal counterparts and crony's responsible for their misjudgement, but it will be in a lawfull and legal manner, and make no mistake my Friend the outdoorsmen and women of this state are a powerful force once united,and I sincerely appreciate your comments and input,it surely, is refreshing, for someone like yourself to stand up and rally the support we need to organize to deal with our new friend the wolf. I have just joined 3 more organizations in the state of WA. that are like minded as this one concerning the wolf situation, and you my friend you have my thanks , for the insight you have shared, I know my colleagues will also be inspired by your words. you have enlightened us to the legal issues,"the science" and the "mindset" that we will lawfully organize and overcome!
Adapt, improvise,overcome

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Offline mulehunter

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #468 on: June 08, 2011, 09:40:51 PM »
 Read what jager said.  How can we trust WDFW if it passed 15 bp and it hasn't open any wolf hunt until it hit 58 B.P.  how u all feel.
What if. They didn't folllow WDFW their plan. And decide to increase B.P.

Mulehunter.

Offline WA hunter14

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #469 on: June 08, 2011, 09:44:11 PM »
Read what jager said.  How can we trust WDFW if it passed 15 bp and it hasn't open any wolf hunt until it hit 58 B.P.  how u all feel.
What if. They didn't folllow WDFW their plan. And decide to increase B.P.

Mulehunter.
   


       isnt that "what if" a when will they? :dunno:

Offline Gringo31

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #470 on: June 08, 2011, 10:37:24 PM »
Quote
when they are 15 breeding pairs in WA for 3 years, then I believe they will be delisted.

This was what WDFW said at the meeting I went to as well.  BUT...then someone from the crowd asked about the Pelican.  He wanted to know how long ago it has been they they petitioned to be delisted.  The answer 25 years.

WDFW asking for a species to be delisted doesn't mean crap.

How again is a overpopulated SPECIES on one side of a line...........and then if they cross that line, that state will pay money to build back that SPECIES?

The pro wolf people don't live by them (for the most part).  Science is too often twisted.  I like the research out of UW that was done by anonymous people.  REAL scientific.
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
-Ronald Reagan

Offline jackelope

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #471 on: June 08, 2011, 10:48:53 PM »
Robert, do you honestly believe 15 breeding pairs will "naturally" make their way into this state? I seriously doubt this state will ever have more "naturally" breeding pairs than it does now, the only way I ever see 15 is if they are transplanted. :twocents:

I don't believe wolves will be transplanted. I think over time, more wolves will end up in WA. This 15 breeding pairs is not something that I think is going to happen quickly.

Transplant from other states is not in the plan but I believe translocation within state lines is part of the plan when the time comes.
Lots of good info in this thread. Lots of junk too.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline Huntnphish

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #472 on: June 09, 2011, 01:00:41 AM »
Transplant from other states is not in the plan but I believe translocation within state lines is part of the plan when the time comes.

 And here in lies my issue Jackelope. Its my contention that the wolf advocates, as well as WDFW, realize that with the rogue hunters applying the SSS initiative and the occasional vehicle mortality, their target goal of 15 BP will never be reached "naturally". Because of this I fear they will "plant" wolves in the areas they feel should have them or in the areas they feel can sufficiently sustain a new pack.

 Again, WDFW will play it off as coincidence that a new pack just happened to establish itself in a new area, BS, and then see it as a new pack that needs to be "confirmed".

 I hate to be such a pessimist when it comes to WDFW but their past actions speak volumes.

 The other thing I have an issue with is
Quote
I believe translocation within state lines is part of the plan when the time comes
Even Robert says its all supposed to be natural and there is no need for translocation or "reintroduction" so why is it that we all know they will pull this BS and plant pairs where they see fit?

 It comes down to politics and bureaucrats again, we cant trust any of them or the guys like Robert. Have you noticed how he has avoided my questions about this? I wonder why, maybe its because he knows this is exactly their plan. :dunno:

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #473 on: June 09, 2011, 01:08:02 AM »
Yellowstone elk populations decline, but are wolves to blame?
Brodie Farquhar

Yellowstone elk populations have dramatically risen and fallen in recent decades, but researchers are arguing over the relative impact of wolf predation on elk populations.

For example, Yellowstone's famed northern range elk increased from about 4,000 head in 1968 to some 20,000 by 1988, due to a combination of factors: elk colonized new winter range in and north of the park, wet summers resulted in better plant production, winters were mild, and the fires of 1988 opened forests allowing more ground cover to grow. With the reintroduction of wolves into the ecosystem in 1995, elk populations held their own from 1995 to 2000 (17,000), before they dramatically dropped by 50 percent to 8,335 in winter 2004.

At the same time, researchers note both high human harvest levels and seven years of drought at the same time wolf numbers were growing throughout the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem.

In a broader context, more than 30,000 elk from 7-8 different herds summer in Yellowstone and approximately 15,000 to 22,000 winter in the park, according to National Park Service biologists.

Are wolves to blame?
Doug Smith and Daniel Stahler (NPS wolf biologists) and John Vucetich (Michigan Tech biologist) joined forces to investigate the influence of harvest, climate and wolf predation on Yellowstone elk. The three built computer models based on elk-related data prior to wolf restoration (1961-1995). The goal was to use the best of these models to predict how elk populations might have fared, had the wolves never been reintroduced.

Their models suggested that human harvest (hunting) might be "super-additive," that for every one percent increase in the harvest rate, elk population growth rate would decline by more than one percent.

"According to the best-performing model, which accounts for harvest rate and climate, the elk population would have been expected to decline by 7.9 percent per year, on average, between 1995 and 2004," they wrote in a study published by the peer-reviewed journal of ecology, Oikos. "Within the limits of uncertainty, which are not trivial, climate and harvest rate are justified explanations for most of the observed elk decline. To the extent that this is true, we suggest that between 1995 and 2004 wolf predation was primarily compensatory (of no significance)."

The researchers acknowledge that some wildlife managers and segments of the general public believe the decline of the northern range elk herd is attributable to wolf predation. "Our analysis indicates that there is greater justification for believing that the harvest rate and severe climate, together, account for at least much of the decline," they wrote.

Competing view
Yet ungulate biologist P.J. White (NPS) and ecologist Dr. Bob Garrott (Montana State), in a paper for Biological Conservation (2005) contend that the rapid growth of the wolf population has in fact contributed to rapid demographic decline for elk.

White and Garrott have also speculated that as wolf recovery continues, there will be greater numbers of bison and antelope, because of wolf pressure on elk and coyote populations, respectively.

Yet wolves are beginning to take bison in the park's interior. The Pelican Valley wolf pack hunts bison in late winter when they are more vulnerable and migratory elk are not available. White and Garrott suggest that a change of prey preference from elk to bison, by wolves, could lead to stable populations for elk and bison.
"Counts of northern Yellowstone elk have decreased more than predicted," wrote White and Garrott, "and counts will likely continue to decrease in the near future given the strong preference of wolves for elk and the high kill rates."

In a telephone interview, White said he believes that wolves have overshot their favored prey base of elk.

"I don't think (the elk population) decline is entirely due to wolves," said White. A moderate to liberal harvest policy has played a role, he said, as well as predation by a growing population of grizzly bears.

But simple answers are both elusive and often wrong, say scientists, citing the sheer complexity of the northern range ecosystem.

White said ruefully that 10 years after the reintroduction of wolves, "the range of predictions is as large as it was before." Past predictions have been spot-on, but others have been wildly off the mark. Today, there's disagreement on whether wolf predation is negligible or significant, where the elk and wolf populations will eventually settle, and at what level the elk hunting harvest can be sustainable.
What everyone would agree to, is that ongoing research is needed to better understand the complexity of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem.

Elk Facts
Elk are the second largest antlered animals in the world, only moose are larger. Bull elk are 4.5 to 5 feet tall at the shoulder and weigh 550 to 800 pounds. Cow elk weigh from 450 to 600 pounds. The National Elk Refuge near Jackson, Wyoming, has an elk herd with consists approximately 20 percent bulls, 65 percent cows, and 15 percent calves.

While most members of the deer family are primarily browsers (feeding on twigs and leaves of shrubs and trees), elk are both browsers and grazers, feeding extensively on grasses and forbs, as well as shrubs.

Grizzly bears, black bears, mountain lions, wolves, and coyotes prey on elk. By weeding out the weak, predators help maintain healthy, vigorous elk herds.
Source: U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

The USFWS is the agency that stold tens of millions of dollars from the Pittman/Robertson fund, these are funds that were supposed to go back to the states for wildlife management. Jim Beers, the former employee who blew the whistle and testified before congress on the subject, I beleive has also stated those funds were used to "introduce" northern canadian wolves into Idaho and Montana. :twocents:

The former Director of the USFWS now works for Defenders of Wildlife.  :twocents:

Why would any person of average intelligence think that the USFWS is being honest about the impacts of wolves. :twocents:
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 01:33:18 AM by bearpaw »
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Offline Huntnphish

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #474 on: June 09, 2011, 01:53:57 AM »
The former Director of the USFWS now works for Defenders of Wildlife.  :twocents: Why would any person of average intelligence think that the USFWS is being honest about the impacts of wolves. :twocents:

 EXACTLY!!!! They are not being honest and have a contingency plan already in effect, knowing that the only way they get the target BP of 15 is to secretively plant them, I think Robert knows this too and doesnt want to admit it. :twocents:

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #475 on: June 09, 2011, 02:20:41 AM »
Quote
As far as national parks like yellowstone go, wolves are being managed. Wolves die from other things like disease, starvation, getting hit by cars, etc. I do find it a bit odd that Washington has a lot of cougars and as of now, they are killing many more deer and elk than wolves and all people seem to focus on is wolves. There seems to be a lot of hate for wolves and not that much hate for cougars even though there are by far many more cougars in WA and they are killing many more deer and elk than wolves as of now.


This is exactly what you can expect from the wolf fraternity. They want to take your attention off the wolf issue with silly little arguments like this. Consider this a learning process for hunters.  :twocents:

I have posted on pro-wolf sites and posted data they could not argue against, I was banned because they could not deal with the facts.  :chuckle:

robertg has ignored any questions regarding his lack of facts. He claims science is on his side but that is a lie. All the new science says that the land and herds can not support the number of wolves desired by the wolfers. He cleverly avoids the decline of elk in other areas and prefers to focus on YNP, claiming that wolves were needed there because the herd was unmanaged. That's a lie, as I have stated before and is recorded by surrounding states, elk herds were managed with thousand of permits issued to hunters. YNP elk were being managed by man and could have been reduced by additional hunting if desired. The Yellowstone Migration hunts were some of the best elk hunting in the world, but that has been destroyed by wolves. Nearly all of the migration hunting has been curtailed because wolves have reduced the Northern YNP herd from nearly 20,000 to less than 5,000. Now, many of the YNP wolves are dispersing to new areas to destroy other herds.

Funny he says wolves are being managed in YNP by natural causes, but on the other hand he claims elk were not being managed, which way is it robert, you can't have it both ways to suit your fancy. :twocents:

Hunters are concerned about growing cougar numbers, herds are barely able to withstand the impacts of too many cougar. Funny robert says we are not concerned about cougar, Oh that's right, you wolf lovers are also cougar lovers and have effectively halted cougar management in Washington:twocents:
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Offline Dave Workman

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #476 on: June 09, 2011, 03:44:15 AM »
robert g two questions 1 what do you think is the correct number of breeding pairs for wa?
2 what is your personal feelings on gun ownership?

This thread is getting rediculous.  Sadly, this is what we're going to face as we move forward with wolf recovery in WA.  If hunters don't put their heads together and come up with a coherent plan that addresses wolf numbers and management in a way that can satisfy the stakeholders, then we're screwed.
I really think this thread is so far off topic that it's usefulness has been lost.  Wolves are here to stay.  If hunters aren't going to be involved in a reasonable attempt to manage them, then we're not going to see anything happen that might benefit this percieved crisis. 
Basically, what I'm saying is that we need to get our $hit together and start thinking of some constructive ideas...more constructive than whining about the nativity, politics, gun rights, ... whatever other nonsense is here that has nothing to do with wolf recovery and our (hunters) having some part in the planning of a wolf plan.  :twocents:


The problem is not that hunters refuse to get involved...their input seems to be considered irrelevant by the people dominating this discussion in Olympia and Ellensburg, and you should know that.

As we have already seen in Montana and Idaho, until the state takes over, the concerns of hunters are meaningless to wolf advocates, and if they were honest they would admit it.

However, honesty seems to have taken flight, along with "good faith." When wolf reintroduction began, there was a target level. When that level was reached, wolves were supposed to have been taken off the ESL. But instead, the wolf advocates intervened with lawsuits to stop or delay the process. That is fact, it is indisputable, and it established a track record for these people. No matter what level we reach with wolves, for them there will never be enough.

The wolf advocates here need to "man-up" and acknowledge that. If you believe we can reach a rational solution with people who have not acted honestly, honorably or, in some cases, rationally, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I mentioned this yesterday...the Neville Chamberlain approach. Appeasement and negotiation has only so much horsepower before there is a confrontation. At some point, responsible people must draw a line and put a stop to the nonsense.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 04:31:37 AM by Dave Workman »
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence

Offline Dave Workman

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #477 on: June 09, 2011, 04:21:23 AM »

Robert- you're going to loss any credibility by not being a hunter on a hunting website, but I don't think it's all that bad that you're here.  We're all going to have to work together in the wolf recovery.  If hunters think they can manage this deal without input from antihunters they're crazy.  EVERYONE is going to be at the table.  I'm glad to hear your input

I don't hunt, but I'm always open to what the other side has to say. The only way anything will get done is if all sides come together and talk about it. All the talk about "sss" and wanting wolves exterminated will not help anything.

Item #1:
Wacoyote: I think your effort to be diplomatic with wolf advocates is going to leave you bleeding from knife wounds in the back. People who have watched this drama unfold over the years have, albeit reluctantly perhaps, come to the realization that you cannot practice diplomacy with people who simply will not negotiate in good faith.

Item #2
Robertg: I honestly don't think you give a rat's ass about what "the other side has to say." The more wolf advocates obfuscate and obstruct with lawsuits the natural progression of de-listing...which will result in hunting...the more you are going to provoke the "SSS" philosophy, and you know it.

The sad part about all of this is that hunters in Idaho and Montana, and livestock people have learned through experience — all of it bad — to not trust wolf advocates, and program biologists in and out of the USFWS and state fish and game agencies (and soon in a state fish and wildlife agency, I predict).

But these people lost that trust all on their own. They threw it away in their zeal to have howling wolves within earshot of every campground on the map, or so it would seem.

Personally, it hasn't bothered me to know there are wolves here and there. I saw wolves in Yakima County on opening day of elk season in 2004, promptly reporting that sighting to a guy I know at WDFW and the very first thing he said was "They're not ours."  Well, then whose were they?

No, I didn't "SSS" the wolves, even though they were hot on the track of a cow elk that had passed my way about 20 minutes before.

You cannot expect to push people into a corner and keep them there under the guise of negotiation and cooperation, as the wolf advocates evidently believe they can push hunters and ranchers. Eventually, those hunters and ranchers are going to push back, and the more unfaithfully they are treated now, the worse that backlash is going to be.


"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence

Offline Dave Workman

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #478 on: June 09, 2011, 04:29:45 AM »
And, yes, I'll be writing about this later this morning.  And if they are found guilty, they deserve to get punished for it.


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2015269378_wolves09m.html

Members of a Methow Valley ranching family have been charged in the killing of several endangered gray wolves and the attempt to illegally mail at least one of the pelts to Canada in a bloody box.

A federal grand jury Tuesday handed up a 12-count indictment that accuses Bill White and his son Tom White, of the Twisp area in Okanogan County, of poaching at least two wolves and then conspiring with Tom's wife, Erin White, to smuggle one of the pelts to an acquaintance in Alberta. The men may have killed another three of the endangered species, according to the indictment.
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Wolf Wars have moved to Washington
« Reply #479 on: June 09, 2011, 05:19:59 AM »

The wolf advocates here need to "man-up" and acknowledge that. If you believe we can reach a rational solution with people who have not acted honestly, honorably or, in some cases, rationally, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I mentioned this yesterday...the Neville Chamberlain approach. Appeasement and negotiation has only so much horsepower before there is a confrontation. At some point, responsible people must draw a line and put a stop to the nonsense.
So what are you suggesting hunters do?  If hunters refuse to meet somewhere in the middle we will be left sitting in the corner with a pouty look on our face and our arms crossed while everyone else decides what's going to be done.  If we don't make some type of intelligent engagement we're not going to be taken seriously.   :twocents:

 


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