Ethical ? (long shot)

[PA BEN]

crazymofo, I guess your missing our point.  I have absolutely no doubt that you can hit a softball every time you want to out to 100 yards, or 99+% of the time.  The problem is no matter how fast a bow your using, it is still wickedly slow compared to a muzzleloader/rifle.  And once you release, and your arrow flies, true to it's mark, right exactly where you were aiming, dead on, you have NO control on what the animal does and he doesn't have to do much before you have a wounded animal.  And no matter how fast a bow you shoot, at those ranges it takes a while for your arrow to arrive.  If you haven't had a wounded animal yet, I'm happy for you, but you can be rest assured if you continue to sling arrows out at those ranges you will in fact wound animals.  This isn't about your shooting skills, it's realizing that your hunting with a weapon with limited capabilities and hunting within those limitations.  Personally, and I realize this is just me, I will not hunt with someone who takes those ridiculous shots at live animals under field conditions and if I was "King" for a day I'd yank your bowhunting lic on the spot....   But I'm not "King" and can only advocate guys and gals give the animals a little more respect and try and close the distance.

Thats right, you can't control what the animal does once the arrow is on it's way. Let me tell you, if a buck or a bull of a lift time is in my range I'll try my damnedest to kill him. I've had deer move at 10 yds and gut shoot them, I've had them move at 25 yds and gut shoot them, I find them but this is when you see your shot and you take the necessary time to let the deer die. The ones I've shot at 40 yds and over have stood there and got a clean kill. And as far as gun shooting!!!! I had a broadside shot at a whitetail at 30 yds with a 308, right when I pulled the trigger he turned and I shot him in the butt. GO FIGURE. S#!T Happens. By the way, I started bow hunting 23 years ago with a Bear Kodiak re curve at 50 lbs, went to a 70 lb longbow then went to a compound bow.

[BIGBULLBALLS]

Like most have said on their posts, alot can happen between you and the animal at distances of over 50 yards.  I practice on a regular basis out to 80 but after a buck jumped the string at 64 a couple of years back I limit my shots to 50. I did recover my buck but after 3 hours of waiting for him to die from a high liver shot.  If he was a target and didn't move I would have smoked him.  Big difference between a foam block and a live animal.  Long time reader first time poster.

[archery288]

Welcome to the site!   

[Machias]

Welcome aboard Bigbullballs.

"Let me tell you, if a buck or a bull of a life time is in my range I'll try my damnedest to kill him." 

I'm just the opposite, the bigger the rack the less risk I take.  I wounded a monster buck once as a young man, with a .30-.30,  he was later scored at 172.  I lost lots and lots of sleep over that buck.  The bigger the rack the less "risk" I'm now willing to take.  It really shouldn't matter though, the size of the buck, all animals from the button buck on up to Muy Grande, deserve a good clean quick kill.  I have always shot a compound bow, took my first deer in 1979 with a bow, Bear Polar LTD, 6 wheels and all. 

I'll step on out of this discussion, probably should have stayed out of it like I originally said I would.  What I can't seem to get through my thick skull is why guys and gals can't say, ok, whatever the reason is I could not quite close the distance today, but there is always tomorrow.  Why do you feel the need to launch arrows 3/4 of the way down a football field?  Or at animals that are not quite broadside or quartering away, or relaxed....etc...Why is it sooo important for you to fill that tag with an iffy shot situation?

[DWB]

dirty.dan quote - This might be off the topic a touch, but you seem to know a little about archery.  My broadheads are throwing my arrow off by 6 to 8 inches.  What do I do?  I have been shooting accurately up to 25 yards with my recurve and fieldtips for 5 months.  I have been trying to adjust my shot with the broadheads for a week and just do not feel comfortable using them.  What do you guys suggest?

dirty.dan -

From my experience, with a compound bow, I found that brand "M" broadheads would shoot to the right and no matter what adjustments I made I could not get the broadheads to shoot the same as my field tips.  I switched to G5 Stykers and 90% of my problem was corrected.  I corrected the rest by minor adjustments to my rest and now my field tips and broadheads shoot identical.  I would suggest to you, before purchasing new broadheads, is to make sure that your broadhead is tuned to your arrow.  Meaning, make sure that the three blades on the broadhead (assuming you shoot three bladed) are in line with your fletching.  If you shoot carbons, you can use an arrow sanding block to help aline.  Once your arrow and broadhead is tuned and if you find that you are still having a problem, adjust your arrow rest, not your sights.  Move the arrow rest very slightly (in 1/64" increments) as it does not take much.  Move the rest opposite of the direction of the arrow placement in the target (if you are shooting to the right, move the rest to the left).  You should see improved arrow placement in the targer- continue to adjust until you are satisfied.  Your target tip and broadhead should now shoot the same.  I am left handed, shoot a 70# Bowtech Alligence, Trophy Taker drop away rest, Black Gold Flash Point and Easton Axis ST arrows and Scott release.  Everything I have told you is assuming that you have your bow tuned correctly to begin with.  I hope I have helped and not confused you.

[Opportunist]

When I first read the topic/post I thought crazymofo was just a *censored*stirring troll, like you see on other sites. But there has been some good comments and opinions generated.

I guess for me when it comes to the issue of long archery shots my thoughts revolve around penetration. I always setup for killing elk, so for me I shoot cut-on contact heads, carbon arrows and pull enough poundage where I can still shoot good groups, for me that's 70 pounds. I practice at 70 and 80 yards but my max initial shot for elk is 40 yards, I will shoot farther and have on secondary follow up shots. Arrows really start shedding energy out past 50 yards and if by chance the animal jumps the string and contact is made on a moving animal penetration is hugely affected. I remember reading somewhere that when an arrow's forward kinetic energy is changed by sideways energy (hitting a moving animal) it decreases it's kinetic energy by half.  So for me it is not just hitting the target, it is hitting a stationary target at 40 yards or less, so if/when the animal jumps the string my arrow is still is carrying enough kinetic energy to deliver full penetration on an elk. My opinion is based on my experience and I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion/ethics nor will I argue about mine.

If this was just a *censored*stirring post then I guess I just wasted my time and got suckered in.

 

[PA BEN]

Not to down play penetration, but the two elk I killed at 60 yds my carbon arrows w/bear razor heads were clean pass through's. I shoot a Darton bow at 62lbs.

[dolph46]

I spent many years hunting big game with a rifle. Then I just quit. I found no satisfaction in killing an animal at 300 yards or even a 100 yards. I started turkey hunting. There was a lot of interaction and I was humbled many times. Then 2 years ago I bought a bow for turkey hunting. I was really humbled. Calling in a tom and getting a body shot (not from a blind) is a real challenge. Now I'm back into big game hunting with my bow- fair chase. The point is getting close is what it is all about. You see more, you more- you sense more. So why worry about long shots? I have passed up many shots (with rifle and bow) where I felt the conditions were not right for a clean kill, but with my bow the satisfaction is still there.

[PA BEN]

I've killed 17 deer with a bow, most were at 15 to 20 yds. Not many at 30 yds and one at 50 yds. Elk is the one animal I have had to take long shots at.

[crazymofo]

Opportunist- *censored*stirring troll huh?  Thats actually really funny!!! I guess i did stir the pot a little.

I agree with a lot of you that an animal might move between the shot and the arrival of the arrow. But with my experiences (so far)  the animals have not moved at all. I've seen them jump the string at 50yds. but the animals i've shot didnt even flinch when i hit the trigger. Some were even looking right at me! It's only a theory but i think at 60 and beyond an animal that isn't extremely spooked, isn't too concerned about a gentle "thump" compared to quick movement of the bow and a somewhat louder "thump" at a closer range. Again, maybe i'm just lucky. But i do challenge all of you to start practicing out to at least 60 yds. If you dont want to shoot animals that far then dont try. I really dont care. But i'll bet those of you who do practice the long range shot will quickly realize how close and easy a 30, 40, or 50 yd. shot really is.

I'm glad to hear some of you long range shooters speaking up.

I hate to "stir the pot" even more but it seems to me that we should be teaching new archers how to "know their limits" instead of passing judgement on others and telling them that what they are doing is unethical. Maybe use a set of standards and strongly suggest that if an archer cant hit a pie plate at 50 yards on 80% of his shots that he shouldn't shoot past 50 yds.  It's like telling lance armstrong that it unethical to ride his bike that far because most of us (including me) cant or wont do it. Or like telling Chuck that its unethical to shoot so many big critters because we cant afford it. I just dont agree with the whole "unethical" statement.

All in all i may be branded as a " *censored*stirring troll" ( thanks opportunist) But i'm glad i did because i think all the comments posted by all of you will probably teach new archers more about this subject than they would learn by saying it's unethical and then dropping the subject.

Keep posting! Its just getting interesting.

[Machias]

"Maybe use a set of standards and strongly suggest that if an archer can't hit a pie plate at 50 yards on 80% of his shots that he shouldn't shoot past 50 yds." 

That sounds like a good standard, as long as 50% of the time you shoot at the pie plate someone holding a string can move it, then if you still hit it more then 80%, I say go for it.    I think that is what is lost on the long range crowd, we're not doubting your shooting abilities, not one bit.  It's that once you release that arrow you have no control.  When you shorten the distance you shorten the time things can happen from release to impact.  Can they happen at shorter distances, sure can, they seem to happen less and less as you close the distance.  I never thought of you as stirring the pot.  I t hink with new archers we should encourage them to start out at lower ranges.  Let them get some years under their belt and some clean one shot kills and then they will be smart enough to figure out what their consistent lethal range is.  But take a new guy and by the end of the summer he can probably wear the ten ring out even out to 75 or 80 yards, doesn't mean he has any busniess shooting at live game under field conditions at those or even half those ranges.

[demontang]

I know my bow is pretty quiet after this season. I shot at a cow that was looking at me at 40 yards and it didn't move tell the arrow hit the ground behind it (I hit a branch in front of it that I didn't see). Another hunter under 50ft from me said he never heard the shot. I think that the new compound bows are getting to where the longer shot don't have as much of a risk of being jump.

I think it all comes down to what everyone fells comfortable with and what they shoot, I didn't think that my bow would have the energy to pass though an elk at 60yd tell I started to shot my block at that distances and the penetration was a lot more the I would have every thought. The groups I can shot at 60yd which have been around 5"-8" groups, have shown me that with a good comfortable shot it would be doable on an elk.

[PA BEN]

I had a buck run off the hill behind my tree stand, stop 10yds away, right when I pulled the trigger on my release, he took off, I hit him right in front of the rump. He didn't jump the string he just ran when I shot. Wow at 10 yds I hit him 18" back. But, the good thing is I got the main artery and the blood coming out the hole looked like a hose. Like I said before S#!t happens

[demontang]

It sure does and some times it happens to often.

[Bscman]

 
I think I'd like to chime in...again!!!
I don't want to step on anyone's toes...just voice my thoughts. Take 'em or leave 'em.

Like I said on page 1, I have no problem with people taking shots past 50yds. The problem is that most of the people that take shots like this are just flinging arrows--they don't have the skill, practice, or accuracy for such shots. They're leaving a lot up to chance, just so they don't have to come back again tomorrow (lazy, unrealistic).

If you can practice at 50+yds and shoot well, all the better to you.
I can shoot 4.0" groups consistently at 50yds, but that is as far as my range goes. I still choose to limite my shots to 40yds because I know I can drill a target the size of a heart 99% of the time. I don't take reckless shots.

How many of you practice when it's a little windy?
How many of you do 100yd wind-sprints then try to shoot for groups?
How many of you practice holding back for 2-3 minutes before loosing?
How many of you practice shooting with one foot on a stump, or on steep hills in loose terrain?

Most importantly...
How many of you practice with your hunting gear on (thick coat, multiple laters, gloves, mask, hat, calls/camera around your neck, backpack/fanny pack, etc)

All these things affect groups and consistency.
If you don't pratice shots with gear on, on uneven terrain, and while you're out of breath (simulate a quick stalk or adrenaline rush) at 50+ yds then how the heck do you know you can connect 100% of the time when the "opportunity" presents itself?

BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF!

Here's a chart I *borrowed* from Huntersfriend showing arrow flight times:

Distance---> 10 Yards    20 Yards    30 Yards   40 Yards   50 yards 150 fps         0.203        0.412        0.628        0.849        1.078 175 fps          0.174       0.353        0.538        0.728        0.924 200 fps          0.152       0.309        0.471        0.637        0.808 225 fps          0.135       0.275        0.418        0.566        0.718 250 fps          0.122       0.247        0.377        0.510        0.647 275 fps          0.111       0.225        0.342        0.463        0.588 300 fps          0.102       0.206        0.314        0.425        0.539 325 fps          0.094       0.190        0.290        0.392        0.497

Now, time to be honest again. How fast is your bow?
How many of you long distance shooters have chrono'd your bow?

Most modern hunting rigs are shooting a "typical" hunting arrow between 240-250fps.

If your bow is rated at 320fps, that was done at 70lb/30" draw with a 350gr arrow.
The typical carbon hunting arrow with a 100gr broadhead is going to run ~400grs...so knock off some speed.

Don't draw 30"? Knock of ~12fps for every inch less.
Not drawing 70lbs? Knock 1.5-2fps off per lb lighter.
Got a string loop, nock, or silencers on? Knock a few more fps for each.
Got helical fletching...or ANY fletching at all? (most IBO tests are bare shaft)
Get the point?

The average hunting arrow is going to take just under 1 second to reach 60yds...but the sound and movement reached the animal INSTANTLY. That's a lot of time for a step, flinch, duck, jump, etc. Not to mention all the limbs that appear from no-where, and the gust of wind that just picked up.

Someone said they can keep their groups on a pie plate 80% of the time at 50yds.
That is most definitely NOT accurate enough to be shooting an animal at 50yds, or likely even 40yds.
Some consider the "kill zone" on a deer to be about 6" in diameter...I believe it's closer to 4." Sure, you can kill a deer outside that zone...but it'll take longer and is much less ideal. A heart shot drops a deer in 20yds, a lung shot takes LONGER!

The average pie pan is just under 10" in diameter. If you can do that 80% of the time, that means your average group is likely closer to 11-12". That means if you aim for the heart, your average arrow is going to hit 4-6" in any direction from where you're aiming...which means you'll miss that heart and likely hit somewhere outside that 4" prime kill zone. Maybe a miss, maybe a lung, maybe your arrow hit a shoulder blade and stop.

...and I bet you aren't using any of the practice techniques I mentioned above, so that's 10" groups 80% of the time in PERFECT conditions....and still not taking into account a moving target.

IMHO, that hardly meets qualifications for a "long distance" shot on an animal.

On the other hand, I know there are members on this forum that can shoot sub 10" groups at 80yds consistently. Those guys are the ones that should be taking the 50 and 60yds shots (if anyone should be at all).

Ethical? I'll leave that word out of the mix...
But I would like to throw in the word "RECKLESS."

If you can't consciously evaluate your limits, and intelligently evaluate all the variables, you are being reckless.

JMHO.