Copper versus Lead

[elksnout]

I did a search and didn't find anything (if indeed I did it correctly?) so here goes.... A close friend of ours works in the medical field and has asked me twice now to reconsider using lead ammo for my hunting. Says there is new research that some states are even not accepting hunter donated meat to food banks anymore because of lead. Then I watched a show the other night that scavengers are getting lead poisoning? Has anybody heard of this? Anyone using non lead ammo?

[wraithen]

Plenty of people using non-lead bullets for their hunting guns. They are being constructed now to be pretty effective at opening and taking up more space on impact. Little more expensive but it's not like you're shooting the hunting bullet every day. Scavengers dying from a single lead bullet on big game is laughable. They'd have to eat it. Seems to me they'd be just as likely to die eating a copper bullet that has opened on game. Either way the big sharp piece of metal probably does more damage than anything else.

All that being said, lead bullets in game sized rounds are probably more likely to end up buried in the earth for a decade or two than something deciding to eat it. Eating metal isn't something most animals would do on purpose, otherwise all the beer cans would disappear. As far as it being an issue just being in the ground, I find that pretty hard to believe. All in all, shoot what you want, just don't eat the bullets.

[Bob33]

This is not a new story. There have been concerns raised about lead in game meat for several years. Some choose to believe the studies, while others do not.

Google "lead in game meat" and read up to your heart's desire.  Here's just one of thousands:

http://www.wildlifemanagementinstitute.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=311:lead-recommedations&catid=34:ONB%20Articles&Itemid=54

[coachcw]

I trim my meat pretty well and like the damage that lead bullets cause , so to each his own . I havn't seen any critters in the woods that look to have been lead posioned . If my Familly only ate wild game then maybe it would be a concern .

[Curly]

Aren't lead bullets outlawed in CA?  Lead probably will be banned in this state too in the future.  I like Barnes TSX (100% copper bullets) but I don't think a lead ban is warranted.

[elksnout]

Like I said, I never thought much about it until recently. I too, cut away more meat from the wound area than I should and always have. But more from a blood shot meat perspective more than anything. Makes you wonder though. I think hunters as a group should lead the charge to be good stewards of the land. Just my take on that. I guess my question really should have been are copper bullets accurate and strong enough to use on big game?

[JimmyHoffa]

Yes, copper is more than strong enough to do the job.  The Barnes line does a great job on critters....just wish they were cannelured.

[bobcat]

I guess my question really should have been are copper bullets accurate and strong enough to use on big game?

Copper bullets are what are used when you really need or want a bullet that will stay together. The Barnes bullets I have recovered from game have always retained 90% of their weight.

[Bob33]

I guess my question really should have been are copper bullets accurate and strong enough to use on big game?

I use Barnes solid copper bullets almost exclusively because of their performance and accuracy in my rifles. I don't like lead schrapnel pieces in my meat but would not consider it a significant health risk to eat game killed with lead bullets.

[elksnout]

Thanks guys for the education today!

[Bofire]

some tiny amount of the deer comes in contact with the bullet, and a tiny amount of the copper comes "off" on that tiny amount of meat, that, if it is a heart/lung shot,  Or most Kill shots, is not meat you will eat anyway. This is a total load of BULL CRAP,

geeeez people, did God give you a brain? Stop trusting "studies".
Carl

[Ice Cap]

I shot a deer in Wyoming this year with a 180 grain TSX.
I recovered the slug just under the hide on the opposite side.
It mushroomed perfectly and when put on my powder scale the mushroomed bullet still weighed 180 grains!

[elksnout]

some tiny amount of the deer comes in contact with the bullet, and a tiny amount of the copper comes "off" on that tiny amount of meat, that, if it is a heart/lung shot,  Or most Kill shots, is not meat you will eat anyway. This is a total load of BULL CRAP,

geeeez people, did God give you a brain? Stop trusting "studies".
Carl

 Nice slam Carl. Yes I have a brain and used it today to ask questions about a subject I knew little about. Thanks to others on this forum I was better educated on said subject and can now make my own decision on which bullets to use should I choose to change. Not a big deal. Not intended to be a big deal. It's nice to know that you are such an expert and have little tolerance for the opinions of others. I guess my take away today should also include to not ask for advise on this site anymore. Thank you for that.

Elksnout

[ohopluke]

This is a great place to get many and varies opinions from many and varied people. And just like the many and varied studies out there, you need to wade through and find what you're looking for without wasting a lot of brain cells worrying about the yoderheads who are experts in every field. I'm not a poisoning expert but I am a medic and I wouldn't worry about that level of exposure. Chow down!

[jess]

I shoot berger bullets and they fragment inside the animal they are 95% lead with a copper jacket i always cut any blood shot and will always shoot bergers cause they kill fast.. And have a high BC way higher than any barnes which is important to me..

[Bean Counter]

it is a cost decision for me. Hunting already cost a lot between tags and feel all alone. I prefer to zero and target with my hunting rounds. it's not just the cost of the round shooting the animal, it's all the rounds that go through my hunting rifle.

a catalytic converter is an added expense to owning an automobile. However, I don't mind laws requiring one as there is an identified environmental benefit to using one. Don't see that with copper vs lead rounds. If you like copper, more power to ya.

[KFhunter]

I can understand shotguns being restricted to non-tovix shot in high usage waterfowl areas and phesant release sites.

that's about it.

[sirmissalot]

Yes, copper is more than strong enough to do the job.  The Barnes line does a great job on critters....just wish they were cannelured.

Not sure what you mean, the triple shock line of Barnes are cannelured. At least for me the grooves line up to be able to use it as a cannelure... Guess I don't know if you can really call it that though. But they are grooved!

[csaaphill]

 
yuck don't give the EPA more ammo.
That's why I hope the hunting bill passes so we don't have to listen to peoples crap.

[thinkingman]

leads been used for how long ? kinda weird how new studies come out that support the sale of "new" products...

 

These 'studies' are nothing new.

some tiny amount of the deer comes in contact with the bullet, and a tiny amount of the copper comes "off" on that tiny amount of meat, that, if it is a heart/lung shot,  Or most Kill shots, is not meat you will eat anyway. This is a total load of BULL CRAP,

geeeez people, did God give you a brain? Stop trusting "studies".
Carl

Carl!  No desert until you finish your lead chips!
And don't forget to lick your fingers after reloading a couple hundred rounds!

In re cost, I can sight in and fill my tags for the cost of a couple of gallons of fuel.
Or a pack of cigarettes, if I smoked.
Barnes TSX are match-grade hunting bullets.
Much more concentric and reliable than cup and core.
No reason not to use them unless you are varmint shooting in volume.
And, yes, lead does kill and disable wildlife.
Same reason poisoning vermine and highly-toxic farming chemicals are banned.
We all live downstream.

[BULLBLASTER]

I was curious about this last year and it so happened that kryptek girlfriend was working for an environmental lab that tested for heavy metal. She took a scrap of meat from the bullet wound and also a piece of the liver. She ran them through all tests and every one was negative for heavy metals negative for phosphates... and negative for anything else she tested for( I forgot what else). This deer was shot with a nosler ballistic tip. She said most of the water they test (municipal supply or most wells) are worse for you than the deer meat from a metal standpoint.
as for Barnes bullets being match grade... I beg to differ and will stick with my lead core bullets for now. I have tried Barnes in numerous rifles and have not been real impressed personally. They do work tho.

[copasj]

There are studies that show lead bullets are harmful and others that show it is harmless.  One or the other is lying and no real way for a layman to tell which.

Here is my opinion on the matter.  People were hunting with lead slugs for centuries, but lead poisoning deaths dropped off once we stopped using lead based cups etc.  Not to mention casting bullets is going to expose you to far more ingested lead than what you would get from eating game meat.   

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[BULLBLASTER]

There are studies that show lead bullets are harmful and others that show it is harmless.  One or the other is lying and no real way for a layman to tell which.
Here is my opinion on the matter.  People were hunting with lead slugs for centuries, but lead poisoning deaths dropped off once we stopped using lead based cups etc.  Not to mention casting bullets is going to expose you to far more ingested lead than what you would get from eating game meat.   
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not to mention eating fish or shellfish.

[Bofire]

  waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, calls em as I sees em, if yer looking for PC don't read my posts.
Carl

[Wacenturion]

Is it right to assume with say Barnes TSX or TTSX that the following are pluses.....

1.  You can use a lighter bullet with less recoil ending up with little loss in grain weight upon entering the animal, therefore equaling a heavier lead bullet that is slower and loses grains from splintering upon entering said animal as far as final grain weight.

2.  Because the bullet is lighter you have more velocity and less drop at similar distances than a heavier lead bullet.  Therefore perhaps more accurate?

3.  Speeds kills vs. heavier kills.   

[Bob33]

Is it right to assume with say Barnes TSX or TTSX that the following are pluses.....

1.  You can use a lighter bullet with less recoil ending up with little loss in grain weight upon entering the animal, therefore equaling a heavier lead bullet that is slower and loses grains from splintering upon entering said animal as far as final grain weight.

2.  Because the bullet is lighter you have more velocity and less drop at similar distances than a heavier lead bullet.  Therefore perhaps more accurate?

3.  Speeds kills vs. heavier kills.   

My opinions:
1. Yes. A 150 grain bullet that retains 100% of its weight exits an animal weighing 150 grains. A 180 grain bullet that loses 35% to 40% of its weight (like a Nosler Partition) weighs 110 grains when exiting.  The rest is inside the animal.
2. Up to a certain distance, yes.  Everything else being equal a lighter bullet has a lower BC and loses velocity faster than a more aerodynamic, heavier bullet. At very long distances (over 500 yards, for sake of discussion) a heavier bullet will catch up and surpass a lighter bullet.
3. That's a topic of endless debate. If speed alone kills we'd all shoot elephants with .22 caliber bullets going 4500 feet per second.

[bobcat]

Barnes bullets, or any of the other 100% copper bullets, are what you want if you want an exit hole.

Having an exit hole usually means a much better blood trail.

That's the main reason I like Barnes bullets. I do want to try the new Nosler e-tip. I like supporting Nosler since they are made right next door in Oregon.

[Wacenturion]

The reason I asked is because I'm getting set up to reload.  Have reloaded shotshells for years, but new to rifle and pistol.  Have a Hornady L&L progessive press and a Hornady single stage.  Been doing a lot of research and planning on going exclusively with Barnes TTSX or TSX.

[h20hunter]

I think one of the main things you will need to do is tweak your loads a bit when using the Barnes...they tend to be a little longer than others. I've used the Barnes with good success and it sounds like a good starting point.

[kentrek]

The reason I asked is because I'm getting set up to reload.  Have reloaded shotshells for years, but new to rifle and pistol.  Have a Hornady L&L progessive press and a Hornady single stage.  Been doing a lot of research and planning on going exclusively with Barnes TTSX or TSX.

one draw back i hear from guys is that these bullets poke holes, letting game run further,but it gives ya two holes so at least you can follow them,unless it rains or snows.. ..the lead bullets poke A hole an then blow up which in my opinion results in way more damage and shorter tracking jobs

what would you rather be shot by ??.. hypothetically speaking of coarse, id rather not have a grenade go off inside me

but this is a Chevy vs ford argument,they all get ya down the road 

[Curly]

I like copper for close shots (under 400 yards), lead for longer shots (over 400 yards). 

[Bob33]

My advice: try loading some Barnes. Start with a bullet that's 10% to 20% lighter than you would normally use with a conventional jacketed bullet. See how they shoot in your rifle. If they shoot well, give them a try on game.

There are man years of wasted life energy spent on debating Barnes vs. conventional bullets. Don't go down that rabbit hole.  See for yourself.

[BULLBLASTER]

  to bob 33 s post. There is no doubt that the Barnes work. I have tried many types of bullets and so far prefer the lead core. Better accuracy for me as well as less copper fouling in my barrel. I haven't tried the e tips or gmx but may in the future. I like heavier for caliber bullets and usually can get heavier in traditional lead core bullets.

[Curly]

Copper is also a good option for recoil sensitive shooter, like kids or women.  For example if you have your wife using your 30-06, you could load it up with 130 gr bullets for lighter recoil than what you'd normally use in a lead bullet (probably 150 gr or so in lead).   

[Wacenturion]

My list of rifle calibers....

.243 Winchester

.257 Roberts

.270 (potentially....looking at one)

.308 Winchester

30-30 Winchester

.300 Win. Mag

.270 WSM

.325 WSM

Looks like the TSX offers a somewhat lager selection of heavier weight bullets over the TTSX in the same caliber.  As an example....8mm (.325 WSM)...TTSX 160 grain....TSX 180 and 200 grain.  Similar in other calibers.

Bob...as you said...

"My advice: try loading some Barnes. Start with a bullet that's 10% to 20% lighter than you would normally use with a conventional jacketed bullet. See how they shoot in your rifle. If they shoot well, give them a try on game.'

That's exactly what I was planning on doing.  Also plan on using Hodgdon Varget powder.....any thoughts?  Seem to be some good loads on most of the calibers above using it, as well as people generally liking that particular powder.