Disk Extreme at the Range. Need help sighting in.

[kerrdog]

Hey ya'll



I took my disk extreme to the range the other day after doing some sanding on my stock.  Factory open sights at 50 yards. My Barnes TMZs were all over the place. Here's what's strange....My first shot (a barnes TMZ with a very clean barrel) went sideways though the target; there was a perfect profile of the bullet in the paper and plywood.  Here's what confuses me.  The second shot was touching that shot, and all the remaining shots were..you can see. (two of the holes are where the staples tore the target) I'm now a believer in fouling the barrel.  That first shot didn't stabilize at all, and I'm thinking that perfectly clean, bore-buttered barrel did not take hold of that sabot.

 My best groups by far were the power belts (second target). With six rounds, I had a decent group; that seventh shot was a conscious adjustment where I aimed slightly high and left trying for the bullseye, so I don't count it in the group. I fired all those in between the barnes shots on a fouled barrel. My idea was to hunt with a bloodline or TMZ loaded, and have a couple of powerbelts in speedloaders for a fast easy reload! I'm still working the kinks out of that plan.

The bottom target was all Barnes TMZ after the barrel was good and warm and I was trying to adjust for center.

I had one bloodline that I fired and missed the paper completely.  I was running a couple patches through the barrel on the TmZs and Bloodline (cause they are really hard to load otherwise), then firing a powerbelt on the fouled barrel.  Like I said, the powerbelt target was much more acceptable.

I've been very resistant to the idea of a fouled barrel helping accuracy.  Not any more.  I walked into a bar yesterday and saw a shuffleboard table.  There was salt on the surface of the table which the puck needed to glide down the table.  If I rubbed the surface of the table with sticky bore butter, I'm guessing that the puck wouldn't glide very well.

Here's where I need help.  Is it correct that my POI at 50 yards should be low when zeroing for 100 yards?  Isn't the bullet still on it's way up? And if I want to move my group to the left, do I move my rear sight to the left?

[bobcat]

First of all, why do you use bore butter in your barrel? There's no need for it. I keep my bore totally clean when I'm hunting. I don't like hunting with a fouled barrel because I don't want my gun to rust.

As for your point of impact at 50 yards, I would try about 1 inch high. If you're low at 50, you'll be low at 100. And yes, move your rear sight in the direction you want the point of impact to move.

[kerrdog]

I'll try that. Do you swab your bore between shots at the range?

[Sabotloader]

Hey ya'll

Kerrdog... going to try share some of my thoughts...for what they might be worth...

I took my disk extreme to the range the other day after doing some sanding on my stock.  Factory open sights at 50 yards. My Barnes TMZs were all over the place. Here's what's strange....My first shot (a barnes TMZ with a very clean barrel) went sideways though the target; there was a perfect profile of the bullet in the paper and plywood.  Here's what confuses me.  The second shot was touching that shot, and all the remaining shots were..you can see. (two of the holes are where the staples tore the target)

A couple of things I would like to ask.  I am not a Barnes shooter so you will have to help me... What weight and caliber was the TMZ?  Which sabot were you using and what was the powder charge?

The DISC Extreme has a barrel twist rate of 1-28 and should stabilze most Barnes bullets.  The longer the bullet the more difficult it is to stabilize.  Providing you were shooting the bullet with a healthy powder charge and the fit of the load combination to the bore were correct the bullet should have stabilized... UNLESS the combination slipped across the lands and grooves of the bore and never reached stabilization rotational spped. It does appear that the following bullets did reach stabilazation passing through the target.  Accuracy on the other hand could still be effected by the condition of your bore.

When you say 'very clean barrel' I would ask how clean? Did you remove the bore oils that may be in your bore after cleaning and storing the barrel?  A barrel that is oiled can effect stabilization and accuracy until the oil is burned out or removed or the barrel becomes fouled.  A lot of people will run a wet alcohol patch to get the bulk of the oil from the barrel, followed by a dry patch or two.  Then most often the normal procedure is to snap a couple of caps to clear the nipple and the breech plug of any oils that may have pooled in that area. Also the snapping of 2-3 caps helps fould the bore a little to allow the bore to get a better grip on the load - especially a load wrapped in a sabot.  The new sabots that we shoot today are also self-lubricating, so they create their own lubrication on the way up the barrel.

I'm now a believer in fouling the barrel.  That first shot didn't stabilize at all, and I'm thinking that perfectly clean, bore-buttered barrel did not take hold of that sabot.

If possible I would suggest that you not use Bore Butter in it's raw form in the barrel.  It is really not a bad product and it will work very effectively if it is applied to the bore correctly.  But today there are just better products out there for use in the barrel.

It would be my suggestion... to find a bore oil that is free of Teflon and one that is a synthectic oil containing no petroleum.  I use Monatana X-Treme Bore conditioner, othe products such as Slip 2000, Ezzox, and Ballistol will serve the purpose and not cake you bore as BB can if it is applied to cold barrel.

I never hunt on a clean cold barrel, even when I am using the products listed above.  I hunt with what I call a 'semi-fouled' barrel probably more like a 'semi-dirty' barrel.  I can get away wtih this because I shoot T7 amd it is not as corrosive as is real BP or the Pyros.  Which leads me to another point - remember it is really not the powder that is corrosive it is the residue after shooting in combination with moisture.  T7 is extremly easy to nuetralize with a bit of Windex.

My best groups by far were the power belts (second target). With six rounds, I had a decent group; that seventh shot was a conscious adjustment where I aimed slightly high and left trying for the bullseye, so I don't count it in the group. I fired all those in between the barnes shots on a fouled barrel. My idea was to hunt with a bloodline or TMZ loaded, and have a couple of powerbelts in speedloaders for a fast easy reload! I'm still working the kinks out of that plan.

Sounds like a plan that should work... but might not be necessary...

The bottom target was all Barnes TMZ after the barrel was good and warm and I was trying to adjust for center.

I had one bloodline that I fired and missed the paper completely.  I was running a couple patches through the barrel on the TmZs and Bloodline (cause they are really hard to load otherwise), then firing a powerbelt on the fouled barrel.  Like I said, the powerbelt target was much more acceptable.

You indicate that you were running patches through the bore after TMZ'z and the Bloodline... What kind of patches? Dry patches or moist patches? If moist what were you using?

I've been very resistant to the idea of a fouled barrel helping accuracy.  Not any more.  I walked into a bar yesterday and saw a shuffleboard table.  There was salt on the surface of the table which the puck needed to glide down the table.  If I rubbed the surface of the table with sticky bore butter, I'm guessing that the puck wouldn't glide very well.

Here's where I need help.  Is it correct that my POI at 50 yards should be low when zeroing for 100 yards?  Isn't the bullet still on it's way up? And if I want to move my group to the left, do I move my rear sight to the left?

That would really depend on the load... This is a ballistic sheet for 250 grain Shock Wave... you can see it is computed with a 100 yard zero which makes it about an inch high at 50.  This heigth can change with bullet weight and powder charge.



Windage and elevation adjustment...

Move the rear sight in the direction that you want the point of impact to move. If you need to move the impact to the left and up, move the rear sight left and up.

Just out of curiosity... How far of a drive is for you to get to the Tri Cities?  I drive to Kennewick quite often... We could get together and do some shooting at some point...

mike

OK just looked up Klickitat... That is still a long ways away from the Tri-Cities...!!!

[kerrdog]

Hey Sabot loader,

I was shooting 300 grain TMZ with the yellow sabot that came with them. 
My patches were: two dry, and one with a tiny bit of bore butter, flip it over, run it again on the backside, and reload.  I'm thinking the bore butter was my biggest problem.  I suppose I was just making the assumption that a tiny bit of lube would help..... 

I've been sticking to 100 grains of T7 FFg.  Next time I go back to the range I'll use some alcohol and have the bore free of oils.

Since I'm planning on using a modern bullet to hunt (TMZ or Bloodlines) can I get by with a lighter bullet on Roosevelt Elk?  Any advantage in using 300 grains vs 250?

Do you just use the caps for "semi-fouling" the bore?

P.S This is the same disk extreme that Jesse fired the Bloodlines that didn't expand last season. (weird)

My goal is 2-4 inch groups, factory sights, 100 yards and 1 inch groups at 50 yards.

I'm in West Vancouver; quite aways from tri cities or kennewick.  Maybe me a Jesse could split gas and come see you for some shooting!

We'll probably do a little turkey hunting in klickitat soon.

[CP]

If you are shooting sabots your bore should be clean and dry for the best accuracy, no oil, no lube.  Pop a cap into a clean, dry patch to clear the nipple; don’t let the cap foul the bore.

I can get 1” groups at 100 yards with my Knight as long as I clean the bore every other shot.

[Sabotloader]

Hey Sabot loader,

I was shooting 300 grain TMZ with the yellow sabot that came with them.

That may be a really tough load in a Knight... If I remember correctly the yellow sabot is comparable to a MMP HPH-12 sabot which is the thicker of the 2 HPH sabots.  I normally shoot a HPH-24 sabot which is slightly thinner. I think you need the Blue sabot from Barnes to load well in a Knight.  The Blue sabot is a HPH-24 if I am reading things correctly.

You might look at this information from Barnes.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/components/muzzleloader/muzzleloader-accuracy/
 

My patches were: two dry, and one with a tiny bit of bore butter, flip it over, run it again on the backside, and reload.  I'm thinking the bore butter was my biggest problem.  I suppose I was just making the assumption that a tiny bit of lube would help..... 

My suggestion would be to make some premade windex patches for swabbing the barrel when needed.  Often shooting T7 with a percussion cap swabbing might not be necessary - but it is  good habit to use as the Windex will neutralize the T7 powder residue in the barrel.  The tad little bit of ammonia in regular blue windex is an excellent metal stripper and it evaporates fast taking water vapor with it.



I would leave the 'bore butter' out... If you need a bit of lubrication try this... insert the bullet in the sabot then roll the sabot on the tip of your tongue so that you are applying a bit of moisture to the out side if the sabot in at the bottom of the sabot.

I've been sticking to 100 grains of T7 FFg.  Next time I go back to the range I'll use some alcohol and have the bore free of oils.

If I could I would suggest move to 110 grains of T7-2f.  Myself I use T7-3f in any rifle I am using cap ignition.  3f ignites easier and burns cleaner.  You may totally avoid the dreaded 'crud ring' if you use a synthetic bore oil.

Since I'm planning on using a modern bullet to hunt (TMZ or Bloodlines) can I get by with a lighter bullet on Roosevelt Elk?  Any advantage in using 300 grains vs 250?

I know with a Bloodline I can shoot elk with a lighter bullet than the 300... but I am old and do not want to worry about it so I do use the 300 grain Bloodlines.  They have proven to me that they can and do the job most often very quickly.  I do not use them but I would say I would feel the same way about the Barnes offerings.  The KEY for me anyway besides bullet placement is penetration - that is why I use Nosler Partitions for so many years.

Do you just use the caps for "semi-fouling" the bore?

Popping 3-4 caps will certainly help produce some fouling - not near as much as popping 209 primers but some is better than none.

P.S This is the same disk extreme that Jesse fired the Bloodlines that didn't expand last season. (weird)

I am still a bit concerned about that, although I have convinced myself that his powder may have been contaminated reducing its ability to drive the bullet out at full velocity.

My goal is 2-4 inch groups, factory sights, 100 yards and 1 inch groups at 50 yards.

  2-4" groups at a 100 is a do-able thing but with open sights and depending upon the type of rest you are using that is really good.  Also remember a 1" group at 50 woul/should translate into a 2" group at 100 if all factors remain the same.  But that does not happen because of the extrenal forces that act upon a bullet in flight.

I'm in West Vancouver; quite aways from tri cities or kennewick.  Maybe me a Jesse could split gas and come see you for some shooting!

Shucks! I was hoping it were not that far away, when I look at the map in my atlas it only a couple of inches... but then again on my map Montana is only maybe 4" inches long -west to east... but from personal experiance it take forever to drive it.

We'll probably do a little turkey hunting in klickitat soon.

Klickitat - I will have to look that one up - I wonder how far that is from tri-cites.

Oh! here is chart that might help you see the the differences in load size for the different sabots...



You can see the new yellow sabot with a .451 sabot give a .506 bore diameter and most knights are lucky to be a .504

[kerrdog]

Dang Sabotloader,

Good info.  And your presentation is amazing.

OK, I'm gonna do the windex patch thing, get my hands on some of those blue sabots, and I'm back to the range.

[Sabotloader]

Dang Sabotloader,

Good info.  And your presentation is amazing.

OK, I'm gonna do the windex patch thing, get my hands on some of those blue sabots, and I'm back to the range.

Are you open for one more suggestion... Since you have been using BB - I really think it might be a good thought to flush clean that barrel - get it back to raw metal.  BB can tend to build up over a period of time and get trapped behing the lands in the bore... which will also help induce the sabot to hop or skip over the lands...  Another thing getting the old residue out of there might make the gun load a lot easier also...

BB is a water soluable product and as you probably already know the warmer it gets the thinner it gets... So I would suggest to you that you might want to clean that bore the old fashioned - old timers way...  I think I have an old write up about my old cleaning method for side hammers....

You know I am really wondering about Jesse's failed Bloodline shot, especially if it came from that bore.  You know that shot might have not stabilized either.  It could have hit that elk sideways just as your first shot on that target did... that would certainly explain the failure.

If you decide to flush the barrel - remove it from the stock and remove the trigger assembly (one allen head screw) and since it is not scoped you do not have that problem to worry about.

Shoot!! I can not find my write on flushing the barrel...

I did find this old post on Modern Muzzleloader that I wrote - it will give you the basic idea....

I do clean the bore with hot soapy water and I do rinse it with boiling water when I do strip clean.

My procedure is that I mix hot tap water with Zep Citrus Cleaner/Degreaser in a plastic bucket. I then drop a dish wrag in the bottom of the bucket. I then put the muzzle in the bucket on top of the dish wrag. Then with a jag and patch begin the flushing action from the breech. I tend to and try to lean the rifle so that most of the water coming out of the breech overflows out of the barreled action and not on to the scope. The scope tends to get some what wet, but not soaked. Then with a tea pot of boiling water I pour that carefully down the breech to rinse the barrel. This operation concerns me the most... if i were to damage the scope it would happen with the boiling water - but carefully and slowly pouring the boiling water down the breech the scope does not get involved...

Next thing dry the bore as soon as possible... I used compressed air and blow it from the breech to the muzzle - then clean dry patches. I then begin my barrel treatment process while the barrel is very hot.

If you might go for this maybe a phone conversation is in order....

mike