The absurdity of WDFW draw system

[skywalker253]

And I am guessing that there are not that many applicants with 10 points or more, when you look at the total number of applicants in the system. All applicants need to know; if they don't have 10 points or more then everything stays the same and their chances increase. They no longer have to compete with high point holder. Those that do have 10 or more points; they apply in Group A. Everything else stays the same and their draw chances increase.

My suggestions simply break up the point holders to increase the chances of the 10 point plus holders, yet still give someone with 1 point a fair chance of drawing. Simply taking a percentage of permits to award those, who have been waiting or derserve a reward. Not that complicated or hard to comprehend.

[skywalker253]

The reason for my suggestion is because I have read so many comments on here, where people are pissed off because they have a ton of points and cannot get drawn. Comments stating that max points doesn't mean *censored* in Wa, the way the draw system is setup. Some guy with 2 points randomly applies in a trophy area, which requires private land access, and he gets drawn with no knowledge of the area. In the meantime plenty of high point holders sit back for years waiting, while the permits go to waste to hunters who have no business applying for the area in the first place.

Whether you like my suggestion or not, is not the point. Nobody can deny that their have been countless posts regarding the reasons I stated above. Just read the title of this topic. Something needs to change....

[skywalker253]

For having over 10 points myself, I say sure....offer up 60% of the tags to those that qualify.

However, once I draw a tag....bye bye Washington.  I'll move onto to a different state and wouldn't waste my time with Washington Draws.

Considering the comments and stories I have read on here; 10 points doesn't mean anything. I have 17 and have been told countless times; "don't expect to get drawn they way the Wa point system is setup." "17 points is virtually the same as 1 point." etc. I was excited, but now I have just decided to use them in a "not so popular area" to increase my draw chances. Why apply in the Blues, when a large percentage of the permits drawn are to average point holders. I would rather get drawn this year and have a chance at something.

[Bullkllr]

Skywalker.

As long as so many people are applying for so few permits, but in so many categories- the system will be screwed.
While it may be a partial solution to award a % of tags to those with 10 pts and more, I think that is basically what is happening most of the time anyway. Sure, someone with 1 pt gets lucky once in awhile, but most of the highest demand tags are going to those with higher points (I know you can get pts to draw info on the wdfw website somewhere). You would soon have just as many people complaining that they can't get drawn with 10 or more points anyway.
And the scarey thing is (as has already been stated) this present system was a fix that was supposedly asked for and supported by license holders

[skywalker253]

Skywalker.

As long as so many people are applying for so few permits, but in so many categories- the system will be screwed.
While it may be a partial solution to award a % of tags to those with 10 pts and more, I think that is basically what is happening most of the time anyway. Sure, someone with 1 pt gets lucky once in awhile, but most of the highest demand tags are going to those with higher points (I know you can get pts to draw info on the wdfw website somewhere). You would soon have just as many people complaining that they can't get drawn with 10 or more points anyway.
And the scarey thing is (as has already been stated) this present system was a fix that was supposedly asked for and supported by license holders

Perhaps a better solution is to leave everything the same, but create a seperate category for high demand hunts. Make it a 10 point or more category to apply for a percentage of the tags. The remaining tags are open to anyone. This would fix the categories you speak of, which would get screwed. Nothing would change. Simply break up the point holders. I disagree with what you said about mostly high point holders are the ones drawn for the high demand tags. If you look at the break downs, they can be missleading.

Example- If someone is drawn at 3 points and somebody is drawn at 22 points; the average points it takes to get drawn would be 12.5 (13). That is miss leading. From what I have seen; several are drawn for the high demand hunts will few points. Some are drawn with a ton of points. I depends on the luck of the draw.

There is no perfect draw system. I would just like them to place more emphasize on the high point holders. Does not seem very fair for a guy to apply year after year to not be drawn with 23 points. Yet a guy with 3 points gets drawn. I don't care how they do it, just break it up a bit or change the odds.

[bobcat]

There is no perfect draw system. I would just like them to place more emphasize on the high point holders. Does not seem very fair for a guy to apply year after year to not be drawn with 23 points. Yet a guy with 3 points gets drawn. I don't care how they do it, just break it up a bit or change the odds.

The system already does what you're talking about. Those with the most points have a much greater chance of being drawn. With each point increase, your odds go up exponentially. There's no reason to change that part of the system. The mathematics of it work just as designed.

If you think about it, a person applying for the first time has 1 point. That puts their "name in the hat" 1 time. A person who has applied and not drawn for 10 years, has 10 points, and their name goes in the hat 100 times. So that person has a 100 times greater chance of being drawn than the person applying for the first time.

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

Like has been said in other threads, people have the idea that they have a right to be drawn for a special permit. That they should be drawn.

I will have 15 points this year. I know i have little chance of drawing. I just looked it up and there are 700 people with 15 or more points for elk. So i know that i am getting up there in the point category but that really doesn't matter. I know that every year i apply i have a chance to draw a permit. And i also know that i might never draw a Quality permit. But i know i have a chance. If you change stuff now you will make alot of people mad because they have invested alot of time and money into the points they do have.

I think the best way to go about it is money up front for Once in a lifetime tags.

I think the idea i have would work, but it would suck.

Every unit will become a draw, say coweeman has 750 permits, ryderwood will have 750 permits and so on and every year you will have to draw, I think that is where they are going with the Bull category.  You will be able to apply every year but you will not hunt every year.

[elksnout]

I have 15 points for bull in Washington ( now quality I guess since the latest fad ). That's 15 years of nice try pal, better luck next year. In nine years of applying in Oregon I have went on two eastside limited entry bull hunts. And the best thing was I pretty much knew which year I would draw. Bash Oregon if you will. I'll keep on keep'n on.....

[bobcat]

In nine years of applying in Oregon I have went on two eastside limited entry bull hunts. And the best thing was I pretty much knew which year I would draw.

That's because they don't have a general season in those units. If Washington did away with the general season, the number of permits would increase, and you would draw every 2 to 3 years. Just like Oregon. But you couldn't hunt every year. Most people don't want to give up their annual elk hunt.

[elksnout]

In nine years of applying in Oregon I have went on two eastside limited entry bull hunts. And the best thing was I pretty much knew which year I would draw.

That's because they don't have a general season in those units. If Washington did away with the general season, the number of permits would increase, and you would draw every 2 to 3 years. Just like Oregon. But you couldn't hunt every year. Most people don't want to give up their annual elk hunt.

Actually there is a second season spike only hunt which I believe is general. My hunts were any bull.

[bobcat]

In nine years of applying in Oregon I have went on two eastside limited entry bull hunts. And the best thing was I pretty much knew which year I would draw.

That's because they don't have a general season in those units. If Washington did away with the general season, the number of permits would increase, and you would draw every 2 to 3 years. Just like Oregon. But you couldn't hunt every year. Most people don't want to give up their annual elk hunt.

Actually there is a second season spike only hunt which I believe is general. My hunts were any bull.

Okay, I know they do have a few units open for spike only in eastern Oregon, but the majority of it is draw only. This allows for a lot more draw permits and makes for some relatively easy to draw hunts. Not only that but Oregon is much bigger than Washington with a whole lot more public land, AND less people.

The point is, your comparing apples to oranges. Oregon is simply a better state for elk hunting. It's not the draw system that makes it that way.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Skywalker, no thanks. I'd rather see it simplified instead of made more complicated.

I don't see how taking a percentage of permits and setting them aside for high point holders is all that complicated. Everything about the system would stay the same. Just pull a percentage of hunts and reserve them for the high point holders. Not that complicated.

How are they gonna divy up the quality bull hunts that only give out 1 or 2 tags?

Here's part of the problem with draws where preference points are concerned. It's simple math

Last year,  21,101 people put in for moose tags. 150 tags were issued.  That means your odds of drawing a moose tag was 7 tenths of one percent or 7 people out of 1,000. It would take 141 years for everybody who applied to be drawn. We're not going to live that long.  It would take 70 years for half of us to be drawn. Most of us won't be hunting that long. Then there are the new hunters who will want to put in for moose tags. They will have even more impossible odds of drawing because they'll be behind the preference point curve. No amount of preference points are going to change those odds. So why should some 80 year old hunter who's been putting in for 70 years have more of a chance to draw a moose tag than a 20 year old newbie? Because that is the end of the slippery slope of preference points. After a while your chances of drawing will be next to nil if you don't have at least 50 preference points. So 90% of the people getting drawn or more will be 70 or 80 year old guys who've been trying all their lives to get drawn. And a vast majority of those old guys still won't get drawn before they die. What a deal. I'd rather have a chance of getting drawn when I was young enough to enjoy it.

[elksnout]

In nine years of applying in Oregon I have went on two eastside limited entry bull hunts. And the best thing was I pretty much knew which year I would draw.

That's because they don't have a general season in those units. If Washington did away with the general season, the number of permits would increase, and you would draw every 2 to 3 years. Just like Oregon. But you couldn't hunt every year. Most people don't want to give up their annual elk hunt.

Actually there is a second season spike only hunt which I believe is general. My hunts were any bull.

Okay, I know they do have a few units open for spike only in eastern Oregon, but the majority of it is draw only. This allows for a lot more draw permits and makes for some relatively easy to draw hunts. Not only that but Oregon is much bigger than Washington with a whole lot more public land, AND less people.

The point is, your comparing apples to oranges. Oregon is simply a better state for elk hunting. It's not the draw system that makes it that way.

Oregon is a better state for elk hunting which is why I put in for the draws. And there are plenty of general hunts on the coast and cascades with various antler restrictions. My point was, I find it beyond absurd that I can't get a bull tag in this state with fifteen points. Like Washington, Oregon tends to manage the eastside differently from the west. But Oregon has zones ( coast, cascade, central, n.e ,etc. ) and manages units which might be side by side each other differently. More micro managed I suppose. Which I tend to believe is one of the reason's they have more elk. Where Washington gives us flatout west and eastside. You're right, comparing our states draw system to any other western state is comparing apples to oranges.  My 

[Austrian Hunter]

Want to really increase your odds, change OIL back to fronting your app.   $2500 a pop.   They hold onto it until June and issue a refund, all but $50 fee.   They get interest off of all of it.   Be serious or need not apply.   This letting everyone have a shot at 7 bucks a pop, you will be LUCKY if its OIL.

I don't disagree with fronting, but I do disagree with fronting $2500. Front the money it costs to buy the tag. People who don't have that kind of expendable cash should not be penalized and not be able to apply. I know I wouldn't have that money to tie up.

I second that statement!!!

[skywalker253]

There is no perfect draw system. I would just like them to place more emphasize on the high point holders. Does not seem very fair for a guy to apply year after year to not be drawn with 23 points. Yet a guy with 3 points gets drawn. I don't care how they do it, just break it up a bit or change the odds.

The system already does what you're talking about. Those with the most points have a much greater chance of being drawn. With each point increase, your odds go up exponentially. There's no reason to change that part of the system. The mathematics of it work just as designed.

If you think about it, a person applying for the first time has 1 point. That puts their "name in the hat" 1 time. A person who has applied and not drawn for 10 years, has 10 points, and their name goes in the hat 100 times. So that person has a 100 times greater chance of being drawn than the person applying for the first time.

I agree with you Bobcat. Everything you said is right on. I would just like to see even MORE emphasis on the high point holders. And I am not saying that because I have 17 points. Even if I had 3 points I would like to see this. The emphasis should be placed on the applicants who have been waiting the longest and applicants with reward points. WDFW Hates Me (Love the user name by the way.) He summed it up well, when he said 700 people have 15 or more points. That is exactly my point. Why not take those high point holders and compete with each other. Eliminate the low point holders from their draw, and create a seperate draw for the lower point holders. This should cycle through the high point holders at a faster rate; thus increasing everyones chance at getting drawn faster. In some cases it gives hope to an elderly hunter, who would like one last chance at a trophy animal before he cannot hunt anymore.

In regards to tag distribution- That will be the highly debatable part of my suggestion. 1 tag hunt choices should be reserved for high point holders only. Once a lower point holder meets the high point holder criteria; they can enter. Or perhaps you give 2 tags. 1 for each point holder category (high and low).

Only throwing ideas out there. By no means am I saying this is the right way to do it. Just ideas....