E-mail from WDFW

[Northway]

So no public easements or public contracts are being violated?

Not sure specifically what you mean by deception, manipulation, devastated economies, etc. Do you or do you not have specific proof they violated any laws or cheated anyone and can you post that proof?

Honestly I know almost nothing about Weyerhauser other than a heck of a lot of people have gotten paychecks from them, that doesn't seem like a bad thing to me, my interest in this discussion is protecting property rights.

I can't answer whether public easements or contracts are being violated in SW Washington.

You could read "Railroads & Clearcuts". It would give you perspective on how the whole land grant process was supposed to work and how it actually worked. Maybe you and I should have more rights on those land grants than we thought?

[snowpack]

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=WY


Northway - pretty much describes all public companies with a board making decisions for investors.   



Profit above all else.  If you get big enough you lobby and pad politician bankrolls.

I agree, they are obligated to make money for shareholders. 

[bearpaw]

So no public easements or public contracts are being violated?

Not sure specifically what you mean by deception, manipulation, devastated economies, etc. Do you or do you not have specific proof they violated any laws or cheated anyone and can you post that proof?

Honestly I know almost nothing about Weyerhauser other than a heck of a lot of people have gotten paychecks from them, that doesn't seem like a bad thing to me, my interest in this discussion is protecting property rights.

I can't answer whether public easements or contracts are being violated in SW Washington.

You could read "Railroads & Clearcuts". It would give you perspective on how the whole land grant process was supposed to work and how it actually worked. Maybe you and I should have more rights on those land grants than we thought?

I googled it but only found books for sale. We have railroad granted timber lands in eastern WA too, have never heard that they were acquired illegally. It would be interesting to know the facts on whether the railroad was supposed to maintain public access or not, obviously that would reflect on this discussion.
 
Totally agree that many politicians will do anything for the right amount of dollars.

Would point out that the job of any company is to make money, I don't fault any company for doing that, this country needs successful companies.

[bobcat]

Well, in a nutshell Weyerhaeuser is a timber company- if they also want to be involve in the hunting lease business, they should be taxed accordingly.

[bearpaw]

Well, in a nutshell Weyerhaeuser is a timber company- if they also want to be involve in the hunting lease business, they should be taxed accordingly.

If they take in money they will be paying taxes on it.

[bobcat]

Well, in a nutshell Weyerhaeuser is a timber company- if they also want to be involve in the hunting lease business, they should be taxed accordingly.

If they take in money they will be paying taxes on it.

Maybe so, but obviously not enough to discourage them from shutting down their land to the general public.

[Alan K]

Well, in a nutshell Weyerhaeuser is a timber company- if they also want to be involve in the hunting lease business, they should be taxed accordingly.

If they take in money they will be paying taxes on it.

Maybe so, but obviously not enough to discourage them from shutting down their land to the general public.

 

Funny how we so vehemently hate it when we're forced into something via taxes when we're against it, but then turn around and would wish to impose increased taxes on others to force them into something we're in favor of.  (Not singling you out Bobcat, many on here are crying for higher taxes and revocation of the mythical (and non-existent) tax break for allowing public access)

Access to private property is a privilege, not a right.  I don't view the privilege of accessing Weyerhaeuser land as any different than my neighbor letting me hunt is back 40, or the farmer on the east side letting me hunt is 500 acres.  Sure it might have been tradition to access/hunt that ground, but if they decide not to let me on there, it's their decision.  It sucks, there is no question about that, but it is what it is and I'm thankful I was able to hunt their property free of charge while I could.

[Northway]

So no public easements or public contracts are being violated?

Not sure specifically what you mean by deception, manipulation, devastated economies, etc. Do you or do you not have specific proof they violated any laws or cheated anyone and can you post that proof?

Honestly I know almost nothing about Weyerhauser other than a heck of a lot of people have gotten paychecks from them, that doesn't seem like a bad thing to me, my interest in this discussion is protecting property rights.

I can't answer whether public easements or contracts are being violated in SW Washington.

You could read "Railroads & Clearcuts". It would give you perspective on how the whole land grant process was supposed to work and how it actually worked. Maybe you and I should have more rights on those land grants than we thought?

I googled it but only found books for sale. We have railroad granted timber lands in eastern WA too, have never heard that they were acquired illegally. It would be interesting to know the facts on whether the railroad was supposed to maintain public access or not, obviously that would reflect on this discussion.
 
Totally agree that many politicians will do anything for the right amount of dollars.

Would point out that the job of any company is to make money, I don't fault any company for doing that, this country needs successful companies.

There's no dispute that the point of a business is to make a profit. My argument is that Weyerhaeuser's historic land dealings at least warrant a discussion on what the public is and isn't entitled to on property that was acquired through land grant. 

Lands that they have acquired through other means, no matter how sleazy, do not legally entitle the public to open access (In the absence of other binding agreements). It's more of a moral debate at that point.

[bearpaw]

Northway I see what you are saying, maybe that is a good angle to work on. I guess it depends if the land grant gave them ownership of the property. There was land granted to homesteaders that became private land and much is still private today. If the railroads were granted full ownership then they have property rights.

If they have full property rights, instead of trying to trample their property rights and setting a very bad precedent, why not look at other options to keep the land opened up to hunting?

Weyerhauser is doing business for a profit. Why not get WDFW / legislators to work out a deal to purchase a conservation/recreational easement to all Weyerhauser lands. Conservation Northwest is buying conservation easements in Eastern Washington from ranchers. The way I understand it ranchers agree to never break up the property for development and get a nice amount for it. They can still ranch, hunt, and pass it on to their kids, but it must stay in one parcel and not be sub-divided or developed. On Weyerhauser lands this would be a win/win for all users, WH still gets to log, and the public still has access.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

So if I incorporate my business tomorrow you are saying I have to open my land up to the public?   

Those are privately owned lands, they can charge if they want as far as I am concerned. Probably half this state is public land for anyone to hunt on, I just don't understand this attitude where people think they can control someone's land.

But they get a PUBLIC tax break. If they don't allow PUBLIC access, then as far as I'm concerned, they can pay property taxes on the assessed value of their land every year, just like all private citizens do.  It would help balance the State budget, and maybe help keep the cost of hunting on State and Federal land down.

I really don't feel bad for big timber companies. They aren't good neighbors any more. They've sent a good portion of local jobs overseas. Their logging practices have hurt streams/fish populations not to mention habitat for many important native species. Forest diversity is drying up. And I'm convinced the spraying of chemicals may be a bigger problem than monoculture or erosion. 

They can start paying their fair share.

[bobcat]

I found an article on the access fee Weyerhaeuser was charging for the Mollala tree farm in Oregon, 5 years ago. I'll be doing some more research, but I believe they no longer have the access fee program. Not sure if there is any public access at all. But for now here's the article:

 

Weyerhaeuser tests access fee on Molalla timberland
 By Ev Hu, The Oregonian The Oregonian
on July 06, 2008 at 8:21 PM, updated July 07, 2008 at 1:04 PM
Doug Beghtel / The OregonianMerlin Cosada records Jake Naylor's name and license plate number before allowing him access to Weyerhaeuser property near Molalla. The registration is part of a pilot program that charges visitors to the Molalla Tree Farm. �
MOLALLA -- The Weyerhaeuser Co., which traditionally opens its vast Western timberlands to public recreation, imposed its first access fee in Oregon this spring on the 57,000-acre Molalla Tree Farm.

Hikers, mountain bikers, hunters, fishers and others must now pay $250 for annual permits to visit the site in southern Clackamas County. Company officials described the arrangement as a pilot program that might spread to more of Weyerhaeuser's 1.1 million acres of Oregon timberlands.

Most visitors treat company property like their own, said Greg Miller, a Weyerhaeuser spokesman. "But a few bad apples kind of spoil it for the rest."

Visitors have dumped old cars and refrigerators, set up meth labs, damaged roads and shot up signs on company property. Although officials don't track how much they spend on upkeep, the cost is significant, Miller said.

Scott Marlega, the company's land-use manager of north valley operations, said Weyerhaeuser wants to keep its private lands open for public access in the Northwest, but that has become increasingly challenging and costly.

Tree farm permits

• For more information about access permits and the Molalla Tree Farm, call 866-437-7778 or click on quality-service-inc.com

Nationwide, Weyerhaeuser owns about 6.4 million acres and has similar fee requirements on several properties outside Oregon, especially in the South, Miller said.

Other timber companies that allow public access to their land in Oregon and southwest Washington say they have no plans to impose fees -- at least for now.

Plum Creek Timber Co., the largest owner of private timberlands in the country, offers free public access, with some restrictions, to its 405,000 acres in Oregon, said spokeswoman Kathy Budinick. "But you never know what the future holds."

Longview Fibre Co. has considered imposing fees to access the 587,000 acres it owns in Oregon and Washington but found the idea impractical. The company's land has several access points and would be hard to monitor, said Blake Rowe, senior vice president. He said his company will monitor how people receive Weyerhaeuser's permit system.

Since Weyerhaeuser started charging for access to the Molalla Tree Farm program in mid-May, about 100 recreation permits have been sold.

People are responding well, said Shelley Tschida, CEO of Quality Services Inc., the contractor hired to patrol the property.

Before Weyerhaeuser established the permit system, visitors could access the Molalla property only on foot, except during hunting season, when vehicle entry was allowed. Now permit-holders can drive into the farm from mid-May to Nov. 30 on weekday evenings after logging operations have stopped and on weekends, she said.

Quality Services will staff the farm's entrance across from the Glen Avon Bridge from 6 p.m. to one hour after sunset on weekdays and from one hour before sunrise to one hour after sunset on weekends, Miller said. Attendants also will check permits of those using the property.

Tim Dilworth owns Dickey Prairie Store, about three miles from the farm's entrance. He has heard some complaints from folks who think the permits cost too much, but overall, people seem happy, he said.

"It's so beautiful," Dilworth said of the tree farm. "A lot of people like to jump into the holes out there."

Dilworth has not bought a permit, but he was happy to hear that the farm was providing vehicle access for the public again. His family is thinking about pitching in to buy a permit, he said.

"I think it'll be nice," he said. "It's all people who have paid, so they'll take care of it."

-- Olga Munoz; olgamunoz@news.oregonian.com

©  OregonLive.com. All rights reserved.

[Wenatcheejay]

bobcat I have to agree with you on this one for the most part. You said SW Wa and EWA are apples and oranges in hunting access. The loss of Timberland is a very valuable hunting resource and I'd like to see a better deal than scarce permits. I don't think that a person like bearpaw who has a small parcel of land is equal to a timber companies holdings. I do not hunt Weyerhaeuser land but if it were closed I'd probably see more people pushed towards where I do go. This will lead to more tresspassing most likely and I don't want that. In Idaho Potlatch started charging an access fee of $50 a car $25 a quad and $100 a camper. The group I hunted with thought I was a tree hugging liberal retard from Washington because I felt the $175 was a fair deal to pay for a years access to more land than I could hunt or recreate in a year. It would be better IMO to have something like that than limited permits. Also, it would still give a way to track undesirables like trash dumpers with a private registry of users. (At least that is what they did.)

WDFW try and work out a better deal    I know you are watching....

[bobcat]

The pay to hunt program in Oregon lasted for two years. Apparently they weren't bringing in enough money. The first year was $250, which allowed up to two vehicles, with the family and up to 6 guests. The second year they kept the $250 fee but allowed only 3 guests, and only one vehicle.

This is the announcement from Weyerhaeuser that they are ending the program:

To all Permittees,

Weyerhaeuser Company would like to thank you for your participation in the Molalla Recreational Access Program. We contracted with Quality Services Inc. to administer the program and they did an outstanding job over the last two years. We have received numerous compliments on how professional and friendly their staff conducted business.

Due to lower then anticipated interest in the program during 2008-2009, Weyerhaeuser Company has decided not to continue the program into 2010. This decision was not based on any problems associated with permittees, because overall you followed our rules. The main reason for not continuing the program is due to the poor economy.

Starting January 1, 2010, the Molalla Tree Farm will once again be open for non-motorized (walk-in) recreational access. A permit will not be required. We will allow access as long as there is no vandalism, motorcycles, or ATV use. We may also close the area during high fire danger, which typically runs from July through September.

Please continue addressing your questions directly to QSI until December 31, 2009. Starting January 1, 2010, you can obtain the latest recreational access information for this area, please call our toll free hot line at: 1-888-741-5403 or you can send me an e-mail scott.marlega@weyerhaeuser.com.

Regards,


Scott Marlega
Weyerhaeuser Company, North Valley Land Use Manager

[Curly]

The pay to hunt program in Oregon lasted for two years. Apparently they weren't bringing in enough money. The first year was $250, which allowed up to two vehicles, with the family and up to 6 guests. The second year they kept the $250 fee but allowed only 3 guests, and only one vehicle.

This is the announcement from Weyerhaeuser that they are ending the program:

To all Permittees,

Weyerhaeuser Company would like to thank you for your participation in the Molalla Recreational Access Program. We contracted with Quality Services Inc. to administer the program and they did an outstanding job over the last two years. We have received numerous compliments on how professional and friendly their staff conducted business.

Due to lower then anticipated interest in the program during 2008-2009, Weyerhaeuser Company has decided not to continue the program into 2010. This decision was not based on any problems associated with permittees, because overall you followed our rules. The main reason for not continuing the program is due to the poor economy.

Starting January 1, 2010, the Molalla Tree Farm will once again be open for non-motorized (walk-in) recreational access. A permit will not be required. We will allow access as long as there is no vandalism, motorcycles, or ATV use. We may also close the area during high fire danger, which typically runs from July through September.

Please continue addressing your questions directly to QSI until December 31, 2009. Starting January 1, 2010, you can obtain the latest recreational access information for this area, please call our toll free hot line at: 1-888-741-5403 or you can send me an e-mail scott.marlega@weyerhaeuser.com.

Regards,


Scott Marlega
Weyerhaeuser Company, North Valley Land Use Manager

So, in the Molalla instance, they are saying they didn't sell enough permits to make the program worth administering?  And they think it was due to the poor economy?  Why do I have a hard time believing those reasons?   

[Wenatcheejay]

I don't know, it would all be so much easier if I just had taken up a nastly habit like smoking a bowel of medical weed a day while playing xbox.  It just doesn't interest me though.