To neuter or not to neuter?

[AspenBud]

Look, you can guys can debate this topic and beat it to a bloody pulp  but the bottom line is for most guys, and gals, it comes down to what suits your lifestyle.

If you can handle keeping your female dog locked up for part of hunting season potentially, don't mind spotting on your rug, and dealing with securing the dog so it doesn't have an encounter with a male, skip spaying if that's what you want.

If you can handle issues with aggression when dogs in heat are near, escape artist attempts to get at dogs in heat, marking, etc, keep your male dog intact.

I just don't think the average dog owner needs an intact dog or is prepared for the extra work that entails. That doesn't mean you should have it done before six months, but it also doesn't mean you need to wait much beyond that either.

Vets will frequently tell you to have it done at around six months. Part of that is because of what they were taught in school regarding the health risks of waiting too long and part of it has to do with the fact that the surgery is less complicated on young dogs (less developed dogs hemorrhage less, etc).

Good luck whichever way you go on your decision.

[AspenBud]

Your vet will tell you to spay/neuter so they can make money!

As an aside, the average salary of a veterinarian coming out of school in the United States is $60,000. No, I didn't forget a zero.

It's harder to get into veterinary school than medical school and there are doctors out there who flunked out of veterinary school before going to medical school. But your average vet does not make anywhere near what a doctor does and they come out with just as much debt.

[Stilly bay]

Look, you can guys can debate this topic and beat it to a bloody pulp  but the bottom line is for most guys, and gals, it comes down to what suits your lifestyle.

OK 

here is something incredibly interesting on cancer and hip/joint problems in dogs altered before 12 months of age.
http://www.akcchf.org/news-events/news/health-implications-in-early.html
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055937
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf
if you don't like to read:
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/02/22/uc-davis-researchers-discover-early-dog-spaying-neutering-increases-chances-of-disease/


recent studies have shown early altering has negative side effect especially where anxiety is concerned. its still up for debate, but I have no doubt that early altering isn't great for physical development either.
I realize dogs and humans are not the same, but lets say we removed a human child's testicles or ovaries before puberty, do you think they would develop normally physically as well as mentally? not a chance.

But you are right, many times we have to compromise what is best for our animals with what suits our lifestyle. Bitches in heat are just a pain in the ass to deal with and I wouldn't want to deal with one unless she had some serious potential for breeding down the road. not to mention the fact that cancer is a bigger risk with each heat cycle.
Intact males that have been well trained are no trouble around females, sure it piques their interest and they do some tooth chattering and they may really want to get some - but I have yet to see a well trained intact male act as uncontrollably as you described around a female in heat. And if they are left unsupervised in the yard only to follow their nose to the bleeding bitch down the road, well thats all on the owner. Intact or not, dogs shouldn't be left to their own devices.

One thing I do know that is straight up wrong and that most of us can agree upon is: the early altering that many animal shelters promote. Puppies getting altered at four months or earlier is no good for the dog or the owner as I have seen some of the basket cases that can be created from those practices. But like you said it is to protect against human carelessness.
it takes a good deal of responsibility to keep intact animals, but really its not rocket science or that much more effort, but if someone can't fathom or respect those responsibilities they probably shouldn't be owning a dog in the first place - intact or otherwise.

[mossback91]

I like to wait around 2 years.....so my dog can mature and develop fully 

[AspenBud]

I realize dogs and humans are not the same, but lets say we removed a human child's testicles or ovaries before puberty, do you think they would develop normally physically as well as mentally? not a chance.

Ask a Castrado. Their voices never developed correctly as a result of such procedures. Some thought their singing was great.   

Intact males that have been well trained are no trouble around females

From what I gather from friends of mine who run dogs in field trials (both AF sanctioned and simply fun events) females in heat are run after everyone else has run...and for a reason.

but I have yet to see a well trained intact male act as uncontrollably as you described around a female in heat.

I'm friends with the breeder of my newest Pointer. My wife and I used to look after their dogs when they would go out of town and when their females went in heat they generally warned us about certain males that would be combative with other males in the house. Two of their dogs (not when we watched them) took trips to the vet hospital because of incidents like that and one of the occasions led to a dog losing a leg after it was fractured and something weird showed up on the x-ray (incidentally, it was a cancer warned about by proponents of not neutering, the dog had been a breeding male for 10 years before he was fixed).

One thing I do know that is straight up wrong and that most of us can agree upon is: the early altering that many animal shelters promote.

I agree because I can see the physical differences in two of my dogs that got pulled from shelters (I got them from rescues). Both get mistaken for females and their muscular structure is not the same as their unaltered counterparts. That said, in a lot of places shelters can't start the adoption process until dogs are fixed, as in by law, and they often simply don't have the room to make waiting feasible. The same applies to rescues.

Puppies getting altered at four months or earlier is no good for the dog or the owner as I have seen some of the basket cases

Right now by best Pointer was a rescued dog that got pulled from a shelter in Kentucky. He was neutered at probably 2-4 months at that shelter before the rescue got him. Most people tell me how great he looks, how fit he is, and how sweet he is. That dog will, and has, hunted himself bloody looking for grouse and I've hunted him for hours at a time. He was a complete maniac as a puppy but has grown into a stellar house dog. He can be touchy when new pups come into the house and before I got my female spayed he was downright dangerous, something that changed within two weeks of her getting fixed. That dog is every bit as driven as the trial dogs I've run him next to and every bit as capable of hunting as long and hard. He's not as disciplined, in fact he's a meat dog that points and that's about it, but at almost 6 years of age he's still my go to dog. He's not a basket case, just a Pointer.   

[Stilly bay]

Ask a Castrado. Their voices never developed correctly as a result of such procedures. Some thought their singing was great.   

too bad they can't get it up.

From what I gather from friends of mine who run dogs in field trials (both AF sanctioned and simply fun events) females in heat are run after everyone else has run...and for a reason.

perhaps I shouldn't have said " no trouble" bitches in heat are bad news at a field trial or anywhere else that intact male dogs need to focus. I don't feel they are out of control and impossible to deal with in everyday situations.  YMMV.

I'm friends with the breeder of my newest Pointer. My wife and I used to look after their dogs when they would go out of town and when their females went in heat they generally warned us about certain males that would be combative with other males in the house. Two of their dogs (not when we watched them) took trips to the vet hospital because of incidents like that and one of the occasions led to a dog losing a leg after it was fractured and something weird showed up on the x-ray (incidentally, it was a cancer warned about by proponents of not neutering, the dog had been a breeding male for 10 years before he was fixed).

once again this proves your mileage may vary. I was mainly referring to keeping intact males together and not with intact females in heat. if a bitch in heat is around and you suspect the males are going to start posturing, separate them and lock em up for craps sake. like I stated earlier it take just a little extra effort to keep the situation manageable.

proponents of not neutering early say it reduces the risk of cancer it doesn't eliminate it. not smoking greatly reduces the risk of lung cancer but you can still get lung cancer even if you haven never even smelled a cigarette before.

Right now by best Pointer was a rescued dog that got pulled from a shelter in Kentucky. He was neutered at probably 2-4 months at that shelter before the rescue got him. Most people tell me how great he looks, how fit he is, and how sweet he is. That dog will, and has, hunted himself bloody looking for grouse and I've hunted him for hours at a time. He was a complete maniac as a puppy but has grown into a stellar house dog. He can be touchy when new pups come into the house and before I got my female spayed he was downright dangerous, something that changed within two weeks of her getting fixed. That dog is every bit as driven as the trial dogs I've run him next to and every bit as capable of hunting as long and hard. He's not as disciplined, in fact he's a meat dog that points and that's about it, but at almost 6 years of age he's still my go to dog. He's not a basket case, just a Pointer. 

it looks like your mileage did vary - I never said early altering WOULD lead to anxiety problems, I said it CAN. It was a suspicion I held quite some time after seeing many early spays or neuters with anxiety issues. I read a study on it last year that strengthened my suspicions greatly, I wish I could find it because it was very interesting. I will look for it again later on tonight.
anyway its kind of a double edge sword since many shelters and rescues promote early spay and neuter to try and turn the tide of unwanted pets and pet pregnancies but in some  cases these animals wind up back in the shelter or rescue because their new owners just can deal with them.  FWIW, the good far outweighs the bad and I hope that shelters continue doing what they can; but for someone purchasing a puppy for a companion or hunting dog they might want to make an educated decision for themselves on when to neuter if they have the choice available.

alright, now its time for sweeping generalizations from all those who spayed or neutered early and their dogs turned out just fine.

[AspenBud]

proponents of not neutering early say it reduces the risk of cancer it doesn't eliminate it. not smoking greatly reduces the risk of lung cancer but you can still get lung cancer even if you haven never even smelled a cigarette before.

Conversely some people can do the equivalent of throwing a nuclear bomb at themselves by eating badly, drinking too much, not exercising, and smoking and they still live to 100. While I wouldn't recommend that, it does demonstrate something that I think plays a bigger role.

Good genes.

If you want a better chance at a cancer free dog or a dog free of other issues it still boils down to researching breeds, breeders, health certs, and pedigrees.

I rolled the dice with my two rescues, but for all I know they are ticking time bombs. At least with my newest dog I know where she comes from and what happened to many of the dogs before her.

Good discussion.   

[mjbskwim]

Here is a link to a study concerning neutering and early neutering.

Personally, if you are just neutering for the sake of neutering, I would not neuter until about 8 or 9 years old.

If you need to neuter (have intact bitches in the house) and its a hassle to manage them, then I would wait until about 15 months of age. It DOES affect skeletal growth so you will at least want to wait for the growth plates to close ( 12-15 months of age).

The study looks at the effect (or lack of) hormones on cancer risks and CCL tears among other things.

http://workingretriever.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=health&action=display&thread=67

WRL

Really? You use a link that goes to a study on Golden Retrievers?
Thee most interbred diseased breed of dogs there is?
Golden breeders are notorious for breeding along family lines. One in Tacoma had 2 dogs,one spring that did not develop hip sockets. I saw both dogs randomly,not by design.
Worst article to use as a case study.
Crap,most GR are lucky to walk at all.

[Stilly bay]

Here is a link to a study concerning neutering and early neutering.

Personally, if you are just neutering for the sake of neutering, I would not neuter until about 8 or 9 years old.

If you need to neuter (have intact bitches in the house) and its a hassle to manage them, then I would wait until about 15 months of age. It DOES affect skeletal growth so you will at least want to wait for the growth plates to close ( 12-15 months of age).

The study looks at the effect (or lack of) hormones on cancer risks and CCL tears among other things.

http://workingretriever.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=health&action=display&thread=67

WRL

Really? You use a link that goes to a study on Golden Retrievers?
Thee most interbred diseased breed of dogs there is?
Golden breeders are notorious for breeding along family lines. One in Tacoma had 2 dogs,one spring that did not develop hip sockets. I saw both dogs randomly,not by design.
Worst article to use as a case study.
Crap,most GR are lucky to walk at all.

If most goldens are lucky to walk at all and so prone to hip dysplasia as  you suggest, then what better breed is there to do a study on? or did you read the article before you clicked post reply?

The article:

"Neutering, and the age at which a dog is neutered, may affect the animal’s risk for developing certain cancers and joint diseases, according to a new study of golden retrievers by a team of researchers at the University of California, Davis.

The study, which examined the health records of 759 golden retrievers, found a surprising doubling of hip dysplasia among male dogs neutered before one year of age. This and other results were published Feb. 13 in the online scientific journal PLOS ONE.

“The study results indicate that dog owners and service-dog trainers should carefully consider when to have their male or female dogs neutered,” said lead investigator Benjamin Hart, a distinguished professor emeritus in the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine.

“It is important to remember, however, that because different dog breeds have different vulnerabilities to various diseases, the effects of early and late neutering also may vary from breed to breed,” he said.

While results of the new study are revealing, Hart said the relationship between neutering and disease-risk remains a complex issue. For example, the increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog’s growth plates as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs.

Dog owners in the United States are overwhelmingly choosing to neuter their dogs, in large part to prevent pet overpopulation or avoid unwanted behaviors. In the U.S., surgical neutering — known as spaying in females — is usually done when the dog is less than one year old.

In Europe, however, neutering is generally avoided by owners and trainers and not promoted by animal health authorities, Hart said.

During the past decade, some studies have indicated that neutering can have several adverse health effects for certain dog breeds. Those studies examined individual diseases using data drawn from one breed or pooled from several breeds.

Against that backdrop, Hart and colleagues launched their study, using a single hospital database. The study was designed to examine the effects of neutering on the risks of several diseases in the same breed, distinguishing between males and females and between early or late neutering and non-neutering.

The researchers chose to focus on the golden retriever because it is one of the most popular breeds in the U.S. and Europe and is vulnerable to various cancers and joint disorders. The breed also is favored for work as a service dog.

The research team reviewed the records of female and male golden retrievers, ranging in age from 1 to 8 years, that had been examined at UC Davis’ William R. Pritchard Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital for two joint disorders and three cancers: hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma and mast cell tumor. The dogs were classified as intact (not neutered), neutered early (before 12 months age), or neutered late (at or after 12 months age).

Joint disorders and cancers are of particular interest because neutering removes the male dog’s testes and the female’s ovaries, interrupting production of certain hormones that play key roles in important body processes such as closure of bone growth plates, and regulation of the estrous cycle in female dogs.

The study revealed that, for all five diseases analyzed, the disease rates were significantly higher in both males and females that were neutered either early or late compared with intact (non-neutered) dogs.

Specifically, early neutering was associated with an increase in the occurrence of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear and lymphosarcoma in males and of cranial cruciate ligament tear in females. Late neutering was associated with the subsequent occurrence of mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma in females.

In most areas, the findings of this study were consistent with earlier studies, suggesting similar increases in disease risks. The new study, however, was the first to specifically report an increased risk of late neutering for mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma.

Furthermore, the new study showed a surprising 100 percent increase, or doubling, of the incidence of hip dysplasia among early-neutered males. Earlier studies had reported a 17 percent increase among all neutered dogs compared to all non-neutered dogs, indicating the importance of the new study in making gender and age-of-neutering comparisons.

Other researchers on this UC Davis study were: Gretel Torres de la Riva, Thomas Farver and Lynette Hart, School of Veterinary Medicine; Anita Oberbauer, Department of Animal Science; Locksley Messam, Department of Public Health Sciences; and Neil Willits, Department of Statistics."

[Happy Gilmore]

One page articles and heresay is easier to adopt as the rule than anything else..

[AspenBud]

Here is a link to a study concerning neutering and early neutering.

Personally, if you are just neutering for the sake of neutering, I would not neuter until about 8 or 9 years old.

If you need to neuter (have intact bitches in the house) and its a hassle to manage them, then I would wait until about 15 months of age. It DOES affect skeletal growth so you will at least want to wait for the growth plates to close ( 12-15 months of age).

The study looks at the effect (or lack of) hormones on cancer risks and CCL tears among other things.

http://workingretriever.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=health&action=display&thread=67

WRL

Really? You use a link that goes to a study on Golden Retrievers?
Thee most interbred diseased breed of dogs there is?
Golden breeders are notorious for breeding along family lines. One in Tacoma had 2 dogs,one spring that did not develop hip sockets. I saw both dogs randomly,not by design.
Worst article to use as a case study.
Crap,most GR are lucky to walk at all.

If most goldens are lucky to walk at all and so prone to hip dysplasia as  you suggest, then what better breed is there to do a study on? or did you read the article before you clicked post reply?

The article:

"Neutering, and the age at which a dog is neutered, may affect the animal’s risk for developing certain cancers and joint diseases, according to a new study of golden retrievers by a team of researchers at the University of California, Davis.

The study, which examined the health records of 759 golden retrievers, found a surprising doubling of hip dysplasia among male dogs neutered before one year of age. This and other results were published Feb. 13 in the online scientific journal PLOS ONE.

“The study results indicate that dog owners and service-dog trainers should carefully consider when to have their male or female dogs neutered,” said lead investigator Benjamin Hart, a distinguished professor emeritus in the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine.

“It is important to remember, however, that because different dog breeds have different vulnerabilities to various diseases, the effects of early and late neutering also may vary from breed to breed,” he said.

While results of the new study are revealing, Hart said the relationship between neutering and disease-risk remains a complex issue. For example, the increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog’s growth plates as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs.

Dog owners in the United States are overwhelmingly choosing to neuter their dogs, in large part to prevent pet overpopulation or avoid unwanted behaviors. In the U.S., surgical neutering — known as spaying in females — is usually done when the dog is less than one year old.

In Europe, however, neutering is generally avoided by owners and trainers and not promoted by animal health authorities, Hart said.

During the past decade, some studies have indicated that neutering can have several adverse health effects for certain dog breeds. Those studies examined individual diseases using data drawn from one breed or pooled from several breeds.

Against that backdrop, Hart and colleagues launched their study, using a single hospital database. The study was designed to examine the effects of neutering on the risks of several diseases in the same breed, distinguishing between males and females and between early or late neutering and non-neutering.

The researchers chose to focus on the golden retriever because it is one of the most popular breeds in the U.S. and Europe and is vulnerable to various cancers and joint disorders. The breed also is favored for work as a service dog.

The research team reviewed the records of female and male golden retrievers, ranging in age from 1 to 8 years, that had been examined at UC Davis’ William R. Pritchard Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital for two joint disorders and three cancers: hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma and mast cell tumor. The dogs were classified as intact (not neutered), neutered early (before 12 months age), or neutered late (at or after 12 months age).

Joint disorders and cancers are of particular interest because neutering removes the male dog’s testes and the female’s ovaries, interrupting production of certain hormones that play key roles in important body processes such as closure of bone growth plates, and regulation of the estrous cycle in female dogs.

The study revealed that, for all five diseases analyzed, the disease rates were significantly higher in both males and females that were neutered either early or late compared with intact (non-neutered) dogs.

Specifically, early neutering was associated with an increase in the occurrence of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear and lymphosarcoma in males and of cranial cruciate ligament tear in females. Late neutering was associated with the subsequent occurrence of mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma in females.

In most areas, the findings of this study were consistent with earlier studies, suggesting similar increases in disease risks. The new study, however, was the first to specifically report an increased risk of late neutering for mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma.

Furthermore, the new study showed a surprising 100 percent increase, or doubling, of the incidence of hip dysplasia among early-neutered males. Earlier studies had reported a 17 percent increase among all neutered dogs compared to all non-neutered dogs, indicating the importance of the new study in making gender and age-of-neutering comparisons.

Other researchers on this UC Davis study were: Gretel Torres de la Riva, Thomas Farver and Lynette Hart, School of Veterinary Medicine; Anita Oberbauer, Department of Animal Science; Locksley Messam, Department of Public Health Sciences; and Neil Willits, Department of Statistics."

The more significant line from that article is as follows...

"“It is important to remember, however, that because different dog breeds have different vulnerabilities to various diseases, the effects of early and late neutering also may vary from breed to breed,”

I'm not even the veterinary pro in my house and I think I can safely say I've seen near every oddball genetically inherited issue that a lab can get just from going to dog parks over the years. I've also seen some highly athletic specimans that were about as rock solid health wise as you'll ever get.

It upsets some when I say it, but I think these studies often get thrown around by breeders (not all) in an effort to explain what they don't want to admit, that some lines in some breeds have real problems and the only way to solve them is through some very hard and honest breeding decisions.

[Happy Gilmore]

Let us be enlightened and take consideration to the laws of averages and the "norm".

Unless a unique type of rare cancer, most (lets assume med-large breed hunting dogs, GSP, Golden, Lab) most have an expected life span of 10-12 years. Cancer typically affects dogs in the 8-10 year old range.

How many more years do you think you get, on average by nuetering a dog? (examples I used above)

[Curly]

My lab was neutered very young (as soon as his balls dropped) by the advice of my vet.  This was around 20 years ago; I wonder what that vet's opinion is regarding age to neuter now? 

[Stilly bay]

One page articles and heresay is easier to adopt as the rule than anything else..

were not adopting any rules here happy. that will never happen on a online forum.

The relevance of the article is purely for this discussion, where it points out that in ONE study there was a decrease in cancer and joint problems within the test group. It is a bit of evidence thrown up to support the argument against early neutering . by no means did anyone suggest that BECAUSE OF this article every one should now wait to neuter. It is purely food for thought and intended to help people make an educated decision in regards to their own animals.

[Happy Gilmore]

One page articles and heresay is easier to adopt as the rule than anything else..

were not adopting any rules here happy. that will never happen on a online forum.

The relevance of the article is purely for this discussion, where it points out that in ONE study there was a decrease in cancer and joint problems within the test group. It is a bit of evidence thrown up to support the argument against early neutering . by no means did anyone suggest that BECAUSE OF this article every one should now wait to neuter. It is purely food for thought and intended to help people make an educated decision in regards to their own animals.

Just pointing out how much validity some folks will put into something they were told once or heard somewhere. You'd have to read lengthy studies and be in some sort of long term research facility NOT funded by Liberal colleges with money coming from guys who tell you to spay and nueter all animals every day on their gameshow in Hollywood.