Free: Contests & Raffles.
Hunting A 3pt min area for whitey for the last 20 years and flipping back and forth between units the same year that have no restrictions is night and day for buck sightings..10x as many in the 3pt areas.Ill see more bucks in 1 day in a 3pt min area than I will all season combined in non restricted areas.People on here complaining about not hunting their "units" children and seniors being forced to shoot 4pts, well do you know the other option that was on the table? closing it! The bio's said this was the only logical way to keep it open to EVERYONE
if you guys are noticing alot of doe without fawns then i am sure the bios are as well, it would be nice if they quit listening to polaticians and start letting us truly manage the predators, what good does all this do if the bobcats, cougars, yotes, bears and wolves kill a good portion of the young that is so important for those units, i dont live there and i dont hunt over there, but we west sideres have a couple units over here that are getting hammered by predators, thats the biggest problem peeps. i am happy to see that the wdfw is trying to help the deer heards in some spots, but without proper predator control isnt it kinda like trying to walk on water
I know for a fact that if it isn't fun and it's hard to harvest a deer they will quit.
"Let me clue you in............you have created a huge bubble of juvenile bucks with very poor antler genetics who are doing the bulk of the breeding......."This not correct...DNA is passed on no matter the age...even if his father had a 200" rack and he is the ofspring and one day if able to mature to 200" he still carries this gene no matter the age when he breeds
and, if anybody thinks this rule will be rescinded, ever, is extremely naive.......the reason is very simple and is mathmatically based..........the very first year that you implement an APR, you "save" a bunch of yearling class bucks and create a bubble of them in the population.what do you think happens when you unwind the APR and let people shoot any buck? its a complete wipeout.............huge increase in harvest; They will never get rid of it;
Don't run a gimmick that does nothing for the does, and only reduces the age class of breeding bucks, which further causes other biological issues.Use good science and do whats right for the herd, even if that means slightly reduced hunter opportunities.
I am not going to quote science on this statement. I'll go by my anecdotal evidence and make the following statement...in regards to Muley guys opener.Give a whitetail one year advantage or grace and I say he has a tenfold chance of surviving the next season, and expotentially after that each year he survives. He gets more than just a year. Apparantly some don't like to see more bucks. FEEEeel the adrenaline rush when you see a flash of antlers but cant notch the tag on that animal. The feel of passing on a smaller buck but know there is a whole age class of deer that are now bigger and harder to harvest...... Its called hunting folks.You want to decrease hunting pressure in those other units, "MAKE em all" point restricted.
QuoteI know for a fact that if it isn't fun and it's hard to harvest a deer they will quit.I wonder if that's trumped up more than it used to be due to internet forums etc. Can't have fun without killing something. That's an interesting concept.
Quote from: muleyguy on July 15, 2013, 10:32:02 PMall the 4pt better rule does is increase the average harvested age class by 1 yr..........that is it......ALL the data on whitetail APR's shows that these rules are effective for increasing the average age class of harvested buck by one yr, but VERY little, if any, recruitment into older age classes results from it. The reason these rules are so "popular" is that it creates a stockpile of 2.5 yr old bucks in the population and the ave age of harvest goes from 1.5 yr old bucks to 2.5 yr old bucks; 1 yr old bucks have slightly larger antlers, and so people "think" there is something magical going on.what you have to understand is that there is a "cost" to all of this; I have ranted on here about these rules, and if you go back I made a prediction a couple of years ago, I predicted that you would see a very large increase in harvest of 4 and 5 pt bucks; the data bears this out;The cost to these rules is it puts tremendous pressure on the older age classes, while protecting the younger age class.Since 2010 when the rule was implemented, the number of 4 and 5 pt bucks harvested in unit 117 has gone up 44%; in unit 121 it has gone up 56%;And, obviously, the number of bucks harvested smaller then 4 pts has gone to virtually zero;What do you think is happening here??? what do you think a post harvest age class survey looks like know??Let me clue you in............you have created a huge bubble of juvenile bucks with very poor antler genetics who are doing the bulk of the breeding.......the reason is, this class of bucks is "protected", whereas the older age classes is not protected.The increase in harvest from 2011 to 2012 in the 4/5pt was huge..........next year it will be the same thing and will only get worse as more people come back to the units. One of the first casualties of this rule will be the loss or dramatic shortening of the rifle general rut season; if this rule is not dropped, that will happen in a couple of more years. This is the unfortunate legacy of APR's in WA........ever shortening season structures...........more people, jammed into a smaller hunting season, while its 90 degrees on October 9th; thats a real treat........In 2012 in unit 121, there was 20,000 hunter days; in 2009, the year before the rule was implemented there was over 31,000 hunter days;1/3 less hunter days...........56% increase in harvest of 4/5pt's.................sorry, but these units cannot sustain that kind of pressure on the older age classes when the hunter days goes back to historical norms.Trust me, there isn't some "magical" new population of 4 and 5 pt bucks; the rule change just took essentially the same number of bucks in the population, and reshuffled the avg harvest age class by 1 yr; and, if anybody thinks this rule will be rescinded, ever, is extremely naive.......the reason is very simple and is mathmatically based..........the very first year that you implement an APR, you "save" a bunch of yearling class bucks and create a bubble of them in the population.what do you think happens when you unwind the APR and let people shoot any buck? its a complete wipeout.............huge increase in harvest; They will never get rid of it;I find it interesting how every Western state has gotten rid of APR's for both Mule deer and whitetails and have essentially taken that science and deemed it junk; But, no, we have mysteriously stumbled upon the magical herd management technique of APR's for both mule deer and whitetails here in WA?? When Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, Oregon, etc have relegated these APR's to the trash heap of failed deer management.And, no, our whitetail herds are not he same as Eastern US herds where they have implemented APR's; those herds are highly productive, very low buck to doe herds;the reason APR's were implemented there was to incentivize hunters to shoot does........that is completely different then what we need; If you want more deer in WA, focus on saving the does, and keep a stable supply of mature bucks doing the breeding.Don't run a gimmick that does nothing for the does, and only reduces the age class of breeding bucks, which further causes other biological issues.Use good science and do whats right for the herd, even if that means slightly reduced hunter opportunities. But where do you live? If you can't live there you can't have an opinion... To those that "live" there...imagine thinking about the big picture instead of yourself. Those 1/3rd less people have to hunt elsewhere or do. You have now put pressure on other units and seasons. The overall trend in lost opportunity is what many people find concerning. While these people aren't on this forum, there is a huge contingent in the general hunting community that is happy with a spike and that's all they want. I guess we will take those thousands of hunters and not let them shoot that meat buck with a 4 point rule. They keep hunting until they see and shoot a larger 4 point or better buck. More pressure on larger bucks but more deer "artificially" in the short term. What you are seeing out there isn't "success" but just the expected results from this change.
all the 4pt better rule does is increase the average harvested age class by 1 yr..........that is it......ALL the data on whitetail APR's shows that these rules are effective for increasing the average age class of harvested buck by one yr, but VERY little, if any, recruitment into older age classes results from it. The reason these rules are so "popular" is that it creates a stockpile of 2.5 yr old bucks in the population and the ave age of harvest goes from 1.5 yr old bucks to 2.5 yr old bucks; 1 yr old bucks have slightly larger antlers, and so people "think" there is something magical going on.what you have to understand is that there is a "cost" to all of this; I have ranted on here about these rules, and if you go back I made a prediction a couple of years ago, I predicted that you would see a very large increase in harvest of 4 and 5 pt bucks; the data bears this out;The cost to these rules is it puts tremendous pressure on the older age classes, while protecting the younger age class.Since 2010 when the rule was implemented, the number of 4 and 5 pt bucks harvested in unit 117 has gone up 44%; in unit 121 it has gone up 56%;And, obviously, the number of bucks harvested smaller then 4 pts has gone to virtually zero;What do you think is happening here??? what do you think a post harvest age class survey looks like know??Let me clue you in............you have created a huge bubble of juvenile bucks with very poor antler genetics who are doing the bulk of the breeding.......the reason is, this class of bucks is "protected", whereas the older age classes is not protected.The increase in harvest from 2011 to 2012 in the 4/5pt was huge..........next year it will be the same thing and will only get worse as more people come back to the units. One of the first casualties of this rule will be the loss or dramatic shortening of the rifle general rut season; if this rule is not dropped, that will happen in a couple of more years. This is the unfortunate legacy of APR's in WA........ever shortening season structures...........more people, jammed into a smaller hunting season, while its 90 degrees on October 9th; thats a real treat........In 2012 in unit 121, there was 20,000 hunter days; in 2009, the year before the rule was implemented there was over 31,000 hunter days;1/3 less hunter days...........56% increase in harvest of 4/5pt's.................sorry, but these units cannot sustain that kind of pressure on the older age classes when the hunter days goes back to historical norms.Trust me, there isn't some "magical" new population of 4 and 5 pt bucks; the rule change just took essentially the same number of bucks in the population, and reshuffled the avg harvest age class by 1 yr; and, if anybody thinks this rule will be rescinded, ever, is extremely naive.......the reason is very simple and is mathmatically based..........the very first year that you implement an APR, you "save" a bunch of yearling class bucks and create a bubble of them in the population.what do you think happens when you unwind the APR and let people shoot any buck? its a complete wipeout.............huge increase in harvest; They will never get rid of it;I find it interesting how every Western state has gotten rid of APR's for both Mule deer and whitetails and have essentially taken that science and deemed it junk; But, no, we have mysteriously stumbled upon the magical herd management technique of APR's for both mule deer and whitetails here in WA?? When Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, Oregon, etc have relegated these APR's to the trash heap of failed deer management.And, no, our whitetail herds are not he same as Eastern US herds where they have implemented APR's; those herds are highly productive, very low buck to doe herds;the reason APR's were implemented there was to incentivize hunters to shoot does........that is completely different then what we need; If you want more deer in WA, focus on saving the does, and keep a stable supply of mature bucks doing the breeding.Don't run a gimmick that does nothing for the does, and only reduces the age class of breeding bucks, which further causes other biological issues.Use good science and do whats right for the herd, even if that means slightly reduced hunter opportunities.
Hunting is a right but killing isn't a right.
Quote from: Jonathan_S on July 16, 2013, 09:09:41 AMHunting is a right but killing isn't a right.hunting isn't a right in WA. it's a gift from them to us...
