Going Full Frame DSLR

[Bean Counter]

Anybody made the jump up to full frame DSLR? I'm thinking the time is drawing near for me. I don't have many complaints with daylight shots but have been running into difficulties in near dark conditions. I'm getting tired of running into noise and shadow recovery problems associated with crop sensors and small ISOs for low light shots. Looking at a  Canon 6d or 5DmkIII. Both can correct for lateral color fringing and lens distortion in camera! That along with the larger sensor seems to allow you to use cheaper lenses and get better results. Anyone?

[Alchase]

I would love to have a 5DMIII!
My sister and my best friend both have them. Sweet camera! Though if I was going to dream, I would get the 1D, LOL.

If I had to choose between a camera and lens, I would keep the crop sensor and get the good glass. I was playing with my buddies EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6L IS USM and EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM on my TXI (300) yesterday. Those lenses make shooting great pictures easy, even for a four year old crop sensor.

[huntnphool]

The 5DIII is a fun camera, this was shot with zero light or flash and hand held.

Yes those are stars in the background, and it was darker than the images make it seem.

Not sure you can use "cheap" lenses, you will pretty much be limited to "L" series, but thats not a bad thing.

[Carl]

Hey, Bean Counter.  You didn't say what you're shooting now. 

Canon (and Nikon) have made great strides in recent years reducing noise.  If budget matters, I would upgrade to the best camera/noise ratio and buy fast L series glass. For some reason, I bet you have some good lenses.   

If not, I have a 70-200 L 2.8 you can borrow if you want to try it out. 

But if you can swing that 5D, I say go for it! 

Carl

[Carl]

The 5DIII is a fun camera, this was shot with zero light or flash and hand held.

Yes those are stars in the background, and it was darker than the images make it seem.

Oh my gosh, after seeing these pictures, you have no choice - get the 5D!   

[huntnphool]

The 5DIII is a fun camera, this was shot with zero light or flash and hand held.

Yes those are stars in the background, and it was darker than the images make it seem.

Oh my gosh, after seeing these pictures, you have no choice - get the 5D!   

We didn't know if it would work but tried anyway. I'll get the exif info for the first shot posted up here when I get a chance.

I dropped that buck right before dark, A LONG WAY from the rig where Shawn was sitting waiting. Long story short, by the time I got back to the rig, loaded up and we went back for the buck a couple hours had passed. I left my camera in the rig and we didn't pack a external flash, the 5DIII doesn't have the little pop up one thats on most of the crop cameras.

Shawn jacked up the ISO and had to hand hold since we didn't pack a tripod either
I held as still as I could and we counted down from 3, 2, 1, cliiiiiiiiick. I think they were over 1 second exposures.

When he looked at the back of the camera after the first shot he started giggling like a little kid. "These are going to be cool" is what he said to me, so we shot a few more before boning out and packing out.

With only the moonlight to use I think they turned out pretty cool. If I remember correctly I think the ISO was up around 16k, maybe even 32k

[Alchase]

I would buy a 5DIII just for the ISO controls!

That and the AF on button (manual focus lock) near your thumb! That is awesome!

[Bean Counter]

I'm leaning towards the 6D at this point. I could do without the wifi and GPS as well as 90% of the other toy store crap. But the 6D has the same sensor as the 5Diii and even some expanded low light capabilities. I like the 11 point diamond pattern of the 6D auto focus as well but only the center point is a cross type, as opposed to all of the 5Diii/7D which are all cross type. My current camera, a 400D/XTi has the same 11 point pattern as the 6d. I tend to like its simplicity but it would have been nice for Canon to upgrade all the AF points to cross type.

[JohnVH]

I want a 5D MKIII so bad!

[returnofsid]

 Your issue seems to do more with lenses than with your camera body.  I'd suggest looking at the Canon 7D.  It's still a cropped frame but handles very high ISO really well.  "Faster" lenses will also allow you to shoot in lower light conditions, giving much better results.

[Johnb317]

Old rule of thumb. Put your money in the glass.
Can't use any Efs lenses on a full frame and many are L quality.  Plus for the 7d
I wanted the 5diii, but too pricey so picked up a 5dii and love it. (6d came out later)

The 24-105L is a great walk about lens. 

[smdave]

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/pho/3970944159.html

Not mine but a really good deal

[huntnphool]

Old rule of thumb. Put your money in the glass.

Agreed!

I'm sure Shawn will chime in at some point but he really likes his 5DIII, and he has had a 7D and 1DsII to compare.

[popeshawnpaul]

Old rule of thumb. Put your money in the glass.

Agreed!

I'm sure Shawn will chime in at some point but he really likes his 5DIII, and he has had a 7D and 1DsII to compare.

I'll chime in.  I've used  and owned every Canon camera but a couple rebels, 1Dx, & 6D.  The 5D3 is the best camera I've ever used.  The focus is fast and needed for moving objects like flying birds, etc.  The 6D will work fine if you don't need a real demanding auto focus system.  I get usable images up to 3200 and suitable images up past that. 

All Canon crop sensors are noisy and not good in low light.  The 7D is really really noisy and produces ugly images, IMO.  If you can shoot at ISO 200-400 all the time I guess it's ok, but if you are shooting in that much light then you don't have very good quality light.  A new 7D is coming but now they say next year.  I went full frame years ago after my 3rd 7D and I finally realized I hate the camera despite the great specs on paper. 

Going from your current camera to a 5D3 will incrementally help you more than about any glass you can buy.  If you don't need fast autofocus, what's wrong with the 5D2?  You get extra pixels but not as many bells and whistles as the 6D, but cheaper...  Don't forget low light autofocus...  Many cameras, even the 1D4 lack this...

These are ISO 3200 shots I couldn't get as good without this camera:

[Johnb317]

Wow!  Beautiful shots. 
So wanted the iii, but am happy with the ii, bought from canon USA refurb. 
I've taken shots in churches where the camera pulled detail I couldn't see in the low light. 
If I ever get a job again I'll trade up.   

[Bean Counter]

Thanks to all who have jumped in here... Cheers

Your issue seems to do more with lenses than with your camera body.  I'd suggest looking at the Canon 7D.  It's still a cropped frame but handles very high ISO really well.  "Faster" lenses will also allow you to shoot in lower light conditions, giving much better results.

I appreciate your input but I don't think its my lenses, but rather the now somewhat archaic crop sensor. Heck my camera is now "dated", like 2006. 

For lenses, i am shooting the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 USM IS, the 70-200mm f/4L USM IS, and the 50mm f/1.8 II. Not exactly glass that people put down on a regular basis. I have shot other lenses including L glass in other copies. I see similar results on the crop sensor whether its a $1,000 lens or a $100 lens in 2/3 of the shots I take (daytime, normal light). Using an appropriate aperture and other technique and its pretty tough to see sharpness differences when it isn't specifics of expensive glass that one needs: ie image stabilization, uber fast aperture, etc.

All Canon crop sensors are noisy and not good in low light.  The 7D is really really noisy and produces ugly images, IMO.  If you can shoot at ISO 200-400 all the time I guess it's ok, but if you are shooting in that much light then you don't have very good quality light.  A new 7D is coming but now they say next year.  I went full frame years ago after my 3rd 7D and I finally realized I hate the camera despite the great specs on paper. 

Funny: i'm at the same place here I'm at at the XTi. Noise is mostly invisible < ISO 200 somewhat visible at ISO 400 and prominent at 800+. As I said 2/3 of my shots are great and that should be good enough for most shooters and impressive with a camera that I will likely sell on Craigslist for $200. I'm getting more bothered by the 1/3 shots where I want better ISO/noise performance.

Going from your current camera to a 5D3 will incrementally help you more than about any glass you can buy.

That's pretty much what I've thought.

If you don't need fast autofocus, what's wrong with the 5D2? 

Nothing is wrong with it, and it sure would be a step up from where I'm at. I'd probably jump on a good deal if I saw one. Heck I'd even buy a Mark 1 of the 5D except the ISO cuts off at 3200.  But I can pick up a new 6D on ebay for $1,600, only a few hundred bucks more than a 5Dii would cost me. For only that much more, I'd rather have the in-camera lens corrections and built in HDR. I've been moving in the direction of wanting to get as much done right in camera, the first time as opposed to spending too much time on hocus pocus, voodoo processing.

I don't do as much wildlife as I would like and I don't see that changing anytime soon. The diamond pattern layout is just fine with me but again I wish a full frame camera like the 6d would have gone and made them all cross type sensors. Shawn: don't you find all those dammed AF points all over your Mark III or 7D viewfinder to be annoying and distracting? Maybe I need to go finger one myself and make my decision from there.

[huntnphool]

Hope you make a huntwa member a good deal on that 17-55mm

[Bean Counter]

Well I have the hood, caps, a Hoya multicoated UV filter ($50), a B+W XS-Pro Kaesseman circular polarizer with multi-resistant nano coating ($175) as well as the original instruction manual. Lens is in perfect shape. Glass has always had a filter on it. I want to sell it all together as I will have no use with $200+ worth of filters without the lens. Not planning on a 77mm lens in my new setup.

I sense a classified ad in our future 

[huntnphool]

Well I have the hood, caps, a Hoya multicoated UV filter ($50), a B+W XS-Pro Kaesseman circular polarizer with multi-resistant nano coating ($175) as well as the original instruction manual. Lens is in perfect shape. Glass has always had a filter on it. I want to sell it all together as I will have no use with $200+ worth of filters without the lens. Not planning on a 77mm lens in my new setup.

I sense a classified ad in our future 

The 17-40mm L, 24-105mm L and the 24mm 1.4L all use a 77mm filter.

[popeshawnpaul]

Having more focus points helps because you need them on the power points and the other point layouts from other cameras don't quite reach the power point.  If you feel there is too many, you can simply change the settings to the diamond pattern or link them into groups for quick changing.  The diamond layout is why I didn't like my 40D and some other cameras...

I know the 6D only uses SD cards and I'm not sure how quick those are.  I think the U ones are faster now but I haven't compared them.  I can download thousands of images in just a few minutes with the Lexar 1000x CF card and it saves me time at the end of long shooting days.  The burst rate is also great for when you need to shotgun some shots off.  Stay away from the original 5D.  The battery life is awful and you have to change a few times each cold morning and always carry spares.  It's too big a pain.

Swap that 17-55 with a 17-40 if on a budget or 24-70 f4 (new version is amazing) and you are good to go.

[Alchase]

Funny: i'm at the same place here I'm at at the XTi. Noise is mostly invisible < ISO 200 somewhat visible at ISO 400 and prominent at 800+. As I said 2/3 of my shots are great and that should be good enough for most shooters and impressive with a camera that I will likely sell on Craigslist for $200. I'm getting more bothered by the 1/3 shots where I want better ISO/noise performance.

I have the same camera, your description is exactly what I see.
Every time I play with the ISO on my buddy's 5DIII, I start drooling.

These are ISO 3200 shots I couldn't get as good without this camera:

That is amazing!

At ISO 800 I have to crank up the "Luminance" in Lightroom just to make half decent picture.

[BOOM!!]

 

Shawn, that owl shot is amazing!

[Bean Counter]

Having more focus points helps because you need them on the power points and the other point layouts from other cameras don't quite reach the power point.  If you feel there is too many, you can simply change the settings to the diamond pattern or link them into groups for quick changing.  The diamond layout is why I didn't like my 40D and some other cameras...

That is good info, thanks.

I know the 6D only uses SD cards and I'm not sure how quick those are.  I think the U ones are faster now but I haven't compared them.  I can download thousands of images in just a few minutes with the Lexar 1000x CF card and it saves me time at the end of long shooting days.  The burst rate is also great for when you need to shotgun some shots off.  Stay away from the original 5D.  The battery life is awful and you have to change a few times each cold morning and always carry spares.  It's too big a pain.

Swap that 17-55 with a 17-40 if on a budget or 24-70 f4 (new version is amazing) and you are good to go.

Again, good info. My priority is to sell the 17-55mm, then sell my XTi body and maybe the 50 f/1.8 with it if necessary. I will keep the 70-200mm f/4L IS and maybe add a fixed 35mm f/1.8 and zoom with my feet.  I don't like carrying lots of lenses, and I imagine that on a full frame, withoout the 'crop factor,' that 70-200mm is a very useful focal length for what I want to do.

[Bean Counter]

Still looking out for a good deal. Trying to trade some firearms or ammo but the two communities don't exactly overlap.

Anyone considering full frame: Costco has a package deal right now for a Canon 6d + 24-105 f/4L + 75-300mm IS.  The 24-105 is L glass, the 75-300 is not. Its $300 off for $3,000 before tax. 

Cheers.

[boneaddict]

I've come to the conclusion I cant stand my 7D.  I don't know what it is, but I get much better photos with my 40D.   I chose it for the external flash, (conv. with family shots) and its rapid fire for sports shots.   I've tossed the whole crop sensor thing around, back and forth in my mind, so that was a wash.   I have the glass, now wish I had the camera.   

[boneaddict]

Those after dark photos are REALLY COOL guys!