2 accused of illegally selling caviar, steelhead, salmon

[ucwarden]

So who's doing most of the actual poaching and supplying the product to the black market buyers and restaurants?  I see eastern European or Asian immigrants coming to this country with no respect for our laws and then paying drug addicted meth heads to do the dirty work for them. This country has some serious issues when you think about it. Too much corruption on all fronts.

Mostly the "harvesting" is being done by normal american white guys, and tribal members.  They sell to a middle-man, who in turn sells to who it is heading to.
Take bear gall bladder for example.  Most bear are shot by guys like me and you.  Some hunters choose to sell the gall bladder (illegal, but they see no harm in it, since the probably killed the bear legally).  Those gall go to a middle-man (a broker of sorts), who then gets them to the Asian buyers.  That would all be fine, except as I said earlier, once you allow the sale of any wildlife it gets out of contol very easily. Money drives people to do bad things.  That is why the sale of bear gall bladder is illegal....because it fuels a huge demand.

[ucwarden]

So who's doing most of the actual poaching and supplying the product to the black market buyers and restaurants?  I see eastern European or Asian immigrants coming to this country with no respect for our laws and then paying drug addicted meth heads to do the dirty work for them. This country has some serious issues when you think about it. Too much corruption on all fronts.

singlkeshot12:
I didn't answer your question about supplying restaurants.  In every case we investigated, the suppliers (the poachers) were all white males.  At least on the four restaurants we investigated and charged.

[ucwarden]

When ucwarden was awarded WDFW Officer of the year several years ago, that year he wrote several hundred citations, received 0 complaints, and actually had citizen compliments from those he had cited..... 

Big Tex:  I never thanked you for all the support you gave during this discussion.  THANKS

[Special T]

On that note, How did you separate good guys who broke the law from bad guys. You Obviously saw both, and did a great job. What tips would you give any wardens listening, and what things can we do to help LEO's separate us from bad guys...

For example I have a friend in the WSP and i asked him "what is the best way to get a verbal warning and not a ticket?" He Responded "Don't break the law stupid!" After we both stopped laughing he said don't fail the "attitude test" he explained most bad guys had attitude so don't start off on the wrong foot.

U have the same recommendation, or something different?

[ucwarden]

On that note, How did you separate good guys who broke the law from bad guys. You Obviously saw both, and did a great job. What tips would you give any wardens listening, and what things can we do to help LEO's separate us from bad guys...

For example I have a friend in the WSP and i asked him "what is the best way to get a verbal warning and not a ticket?" He Responded "Don't break the law stupid!" After we both stopped laughing he said don't fail the "attitude test" he explained most bad guys had attitude so don't start off on the wrong foot.

U have the same recommendation, or something different?

As you know, from this whole discussion, the last eight years of my career were all working undercover..so a little different from your question.
But, in my uniformed days; I think you hit it right on the head.  When I used to do school age presentations (we all have to attend career days at schools, and hunter education classes) I always told the kids that "In my whole career I can only think of a time or two I was talked out of writing a citation I had decided to wrtite, but I frequently got talked into writing a citation which I had decided not to write".

For me, personally, my job boiled down to this; compliance.  If I could get people to comply with the laws by warnings (and I felt they really had learned their lessons without going through the court process) then a warning it was.  Other people, my their actions (i.e- serious violation, or a @#$ you response) obviously needed the full-meal deal.  So I am not saying anyone has to kiss up to an officer, but if you show disrespect and hostility, it will become obvious to the officer that you are not going to learn without meeting the judge (and maybe not even then).

One thing WDFW does, that I strongly disagree with, is evalaute officers more on quantity of arrests rather than quality.  These days it's all about numbers; number of contact, citations etc.  I think that is counter-productive, because we all want the worst of the worst caught.  The average sportsman, who makes a minor mistake, was always my best source for information on more serious violators (they felt they owed me one if I gave them a break), but I have seen officers lay paper on everyone for every violation, and the hunters/fishermen in their communities won't tell them anything.

[Special T]

I know at least a couple of people that would do nothing to help out ANY warden because of heavy handed treatment over a slight infraction that is open to interpretation.

Since it was mostly under cover, How did you separate the hard core poacher from the dummies? Or some guy whacking a doe or 2nd deer because he was laid off?

[ucwarden]

I know at least a couple of people that would do nothing to help out ANY warden because of heavy handed treatment over a slight infraction that is open to interpretation.

Since it was mostly under cover, How did you separate the hard core poacher from the dummies? Or some guy whacking a doe or 2nd deer because he was laid off?

I am not trying to be sarcastic here, but in undercover cases I am with them in their environment.  Since they obviously didn't know who I really was; they told me and showed me what drove them to do what they do.  While most of the people I worked bragged about more than they really did, they would open up to me about every aspect of their lives.  It wasn't too hard to figure out their motivation.  I almost always had discussions, during the UC, about just how illegal what they (or we) were doing.

As I said in one of the previous posts; if suspects were at all hesitant to commit crimes, we sure didn't encourage it, and backed out leaving them alone. 

Again, I am not at all pushing my book, but .....

[Curly]

I imagine while you were UC, you would have to poach to keep in the good graces of your "friends".   Is that the case?  How did it make you feel to poach?  Is that kind of info covered in your book? 

[Fl0und3rz]

I imagine while you were UC, you would have to poach to keep in the good graces of your "friends".   Is that the case?  How did it make you feel to poach?  Is that kind of info covered in your book? 

This is not necessarily the case.  Up thread, I believe he recounted how there are poachers, middlemen, and purchasers of poached game such as distributors and restaurants, and one of the targets could be any of the above.  I'd imagine you could work UC without having to actually break the law regarding poaching game.  That seems more like stuff of the movies.

[ucwarden]

I imagine while you were UC, you would have to poach to keep in the good graces of your "friends".   Is that the case?  How did it make you feel to poach?  Is that kind of info covered in your book? 

This is not necessarily the case.  Up thread, I believe he recounted how there are poachers, middlemen, and purchasers of poached game such as distributors and restaurants, and one of the targets could be any of the above.  I'd imagine you could work UC without having to actually break the law regarding poaching game.  That seems more like stuff of the movies.

Actually, you are both correct.  On Operation Cody, my partner and I did not kill, or even hunt anything.  We did, however break many wildlife (both state and federal) laws in the performance of our duties; which is obviously necessary in order to complete undercover transactions (and we are legally covered, as long as it is in the course of our duties).

On other cases, I have been invloved in illegal hunting and killing animals illegally.  How did that make me feel?  Some of it was not good, other things were ok, but I knew all along it was the only way to get the bad guys to ever stop.  Undercover should always be the last resort in a criminal investigation, not the first choice, because of the risk to the undercover officers, the impact to the resources, and the remote risk to the public.  There have been several times, that UC operations weere shut down because they were getting out of control.

People (even our own officers) think working UC is "fun", because we get paid to hunt, but trust me working with the suspects I had to spend time with is no fun at all.   

[Special T]

Is doing undercover work like yoursvery dangerouse after the fact? What i should ask perhaps is commercial poatching anywhere near as organised as the Drug trade, or Mafia?

[pianoman9701]

So who's doing most of the actual poaching and supplying the product to the black market buyers and restaurants?  I see eastern European or Asian immigrants coming to this country with no respect for our laws and then paying drug addicted meth heads to do the dirty work for them. This country has some serious issues when you think about it. Too much corruption on all fronts.

singlkeshot12:
I didn't answer your question about supplying restaurants.  In every case we investigated, the suppliers (the poachers) were all white males.  At least on the four restaurants we investigated and charged.

And there are restaurants purchasing caviar legally through the commercial fish trade in WA and out. Most of the upscale restaurants are very above board in their purchases.

[ucwarden]

singlkeshot12:
I didn't answer your question about supplying restaurants.  In every case we investigated, the suppliers (the poachers) were all white males.  At least on the four restaurants we investigated and charged.
[/quote]

And there are restaurants purchasing caviar legally through the commercial fish trade in WA and out. Most of the upscale restaurants are very above board in their purchases.
[/quote]

Very true.  The good quality restaurants will never touch illegal product, as it isn't worth the risk.

[Chase 1]

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[ucwarden]

tag

"tag"  I don't understand?