Bellingham to pay man $15000 for harrassment

[Skillet]

Never said it was right - I only said it's BS that he got $15K worth of scared - especially since he was carrying.  It's not Constitutional issue - it is a "CommonSensical" issue.  If it was a teenage vegan pacifist hippy doing yoga in the park and she got a gun pulled on her while doing the downward dog, I'd be more likely to buy that she got $15K worth of scared.  And I'd bet that $15K would be spent on therapists and counselors and healing sessions and group hugs.  I don't see a guy that open carries taking his $15K to the therapist and laying on the couch crying about how traumatized he was.  So it isn't compensation for damages - it's just "go away" money.     

As far as the police discipline is concerned, show me a cop whose union isn't strong enough to protect him from dismissal over pulling a gun on a citizen and I'll show you a minimum wage security guard. 

I often think you have a good perspective on issues such as these, but in this case I too respectfully agree to disagree.

[GoldTip]

Never said it was right - I only said it's BS that he got $15K worth of scared - especially since he was carrying.  It's not Constitutional issue - it is a "CommonSensical" issue.  If it was a teenage vegan pacifist hippy doing yoga in the park and she got a gun pulled on her while doing the downward dog, I'd be more likely to buy that she got $15K worth of scared.  And I'd bet that $15K would be spent on therapists and counselors and healing sessions and group hugs.  I don't see a guy that open carries taking his $15K to the therapist and laying on the couch crying about how traumatized he was.  So it isn't compensation for damages - it's just "go away" money.     

As far as the police discipline is concerned, show me a cop whose union isn't strong enough to protect him from dismissal over pulling a gun on a citizen and I'll show you a minimum wage security guard. 

I often think you have a good perspective on issues such as these, but in this case I too respectfully agree to disagree.

Very well said.  Although I never want a gun pulled on me by a police officer, I sure aint going to turn around and sue the officer or the city or the country or the state.   Really?  Anyone truly believes this was a 15k mistake?  Even if the cop was just being a complete Richard Cranium on a powertrip, the Master Seargant deserves no more than an apology from the Chief of Police and the Mayor and an assurance that training steps will be taken to rectify the situation. 

[pianoman9701]

Never said it was right - I only said it's BS that he got $15K worth of scared - especially since he was carrying.  It's not Constitutional issue - it is a "CommonSensical" issue.  If it was a teenage vegan pacifist hippy doing yoga in the park and she got a gun pulled on her while doing the downward dog, I'd be more likely to buy that she got $15K worth of scared.  And I'd bet that $15K would be spent on therapists and counselors and healing sessions and group hugs.  I don't see a guy that open carries taking his $15K to the therapist and laying on the couch crying about how traumatized he was.  So it isn't compensation for damages - it's just "go away" money.     

As far as the police discipline is concerned, show me a cop whose union isn't strong enough to protect him from dismissal over pulling a gun on a citizen and I'll show you a minimum wage security guard. 

I often think you have a good perspective on issues such as these, but in this case I too respectfully agree to disagree.

OK, we disagree. Thanks for your perspective.

[Skillet]

Likewise.  A final example of what I am referring to, although three orders of magnitude larger, but I think the concept is the same:

Here's an example of things going correctly and at least ONE person (CT State Claims Commissioner) standing up to ridiculous lawsuits-

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/14/charla-nash-chimp-attack-victim-lawsuit-denied_n_3443456.html

"HARTFORD, Conn. — A Connecticut woman disfigured by a friend's pet chimpanzee in 2009 was denied permission Friday to sue the state for $150 million on her claim that officials knew the animal was dangerous but didn't do anything about it.

The state claims commissioner released a five-page decision approving the state's motion to dismiss Charla Nash's claim, saying the law at the time allowed private ownership of chimpanzees and didn't require officials to seize legal animals. The state generally is immune to lawsuits, unless allowed by the claims commissioner."

Of course, her lawyer isn't willing to walk away from a third of $150 million, so they will appeal to the state legislature.  And the elected officials there (overwhelmingly Democrats) will no doubt approve her lawsuit to go forward, because they are beholden to the news media cycle and can't afford the negative sound bytes that would come with denying the claim.

$150 Million equates to $115.38 of tax money for each and every of Connecticut's 1.3 million households.  And we all know that a significant number of households don't pay taxes, so the actual burden on those that do is much higher.

[JackOfAllTrades]

If I was illegally mistreated or harrassed by a peace officer, I would take the award, pay my attorney, buy another gun or two and probably donate an amount to a worthy cause.  Being swept by a shottie barrel out huntin birds, being scoped by a poor choice of hunting practice by a fellow hunter, or being handed an unchecked weapon at the gun counter are all poor choices/actions, but they are certainly not the same as haveing a LEO (or anyone) take a defensive position while aiming his/her weapon at my center mass point blank. At that point, it is safe to assume a loaded weapon. It is safe to assume that any movement by me can be considered aggressive. At that point, it would be safe to assume that my life could be ended in a flash. I'm not the one wearing the vest....
 
Compensation and assurance that there would be training extended to the force, a repremand filed, along with an appology from the LEO that should know the law should be in order. That said, I do realize that those in blue are not attorneys/judges with in-depth knowledge of all laws.  That's why we have a court system. Still, for such as was reported I would think LEO's of this state to be just as well versed in Open/Concealed Carry RCW's as any umpire should know how to interpret the Infield Fly rule in Baseball.
 
-Steve

[pianoman9701]

Likewise.  A final example of what I am referring to, although three orders of magnitude larger, but I think the concept is the same:

Here's an example of things going correctly and at least ONE person (CT State Claims Commissioner) standing up to ridiculous lawsuits-

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/14/charla-nash-chimp-attack-victim-lawsuit-denied_n_3443456.html

"HARTFORD, Conn. — A Connecticut woman disfigured by a friend's pet chimpanzee in 2009 was denied permission Friday to sue the state for $150 million on her claim that officials knew the animal was dangerous but didn't do anything about it.

The state claims commissioner released a five-page decision approving the state's motion to dismiss Charla Nash's claim, saying the law at the time allowed private ownership of chimpanzees and didn't require officials to seize legal animals. The state generally is immune to lawsuits, unless allowed by the claims commissioner."

Of course, her lawyer isn't willing to walk away from a third of $150 million, so they will appeal to the state legislature.  And the elected officials there (overwhelmingly Democrats) will no doubt approve her lawsuit to go forward, because they are beholden to the news media cycle and can't afford the negative sound bytes that would come with denying the claim.

$150 Million equates to $115.38 of tax money for each and every of Connecticut's 1.3 million households.  And we all know that a significant number of households don't pay taxes, so the actual burden on those that do is much higher.

I agree with this decision to throw out. Different circumstance. Now, if the city owned the chimp, that would be a different story.

[Skillet]

If I was illegally mistreated or harrassed by a peace officer, I would take the award, pay my attorney, buy another gun or two and probably donate an amount to a worthy cause.  Being swept by a shottie barrel out huntin birds, being scoped by a poor choice of hunting practice by a fellow hunter, or being handed an unchecked weapon at the gun counter are all poor choices/actions, but they are certainly not the same as haveing a LEO (or anyone) take a defensive position while aiming his/her weapon at my center mass point blank. At that point, it is safe to assume a loaded weapon. It is safe to assume that any movement by me can be considered aggressive. At that point, it would be safe to assume that my life could be ended in a flash. I'm not the one wearing the vest....
 
Compensation and assurance that there would be training extended to the force, a repremand filed, along with an appology from the LEO that should know the law should be in order. That said, I do realize that those in blue are not attorneys/judges with in-depth knowledge of all laws.  That's why we have a court system. Still, for such as was reported I would think LEO's of this state to be just as well versed in Open/Concealed Carry RCW's as any umpire should know how to interpret the Infield Fly rule in Baseball.
 
-Steve

Granted, I used those examples as "over-the-top" extensions of the logic to illustrate my point.  I agree they are not likely to be something someone would seriously consider getting compensation for.  But in this case, are you saying you would have contacted an attorney about being unjustifiably drawn upon and used their services to seek "damages" from the municipality?  What would the basis of your damage claim been?

[pianoman9701]

I've never had a loaded gun pointed at me in anger. My service time was all stateside. I would imagine that regardless of whether you carry and are familiar with guns, having one pointed at you would be a unique and unusual experience, and could be very traumatic. Maybe someone with a personal experience here might be able to add some insight to the discussion.

[Skillet]

I agree with this decision to throw out. Different circumstance. Now, if the city owned the chimp, that would be a different story.

Absolutely - very different circumstance, but a good illustration of the idea that the government with deep pockets should be held accountable for everything.  She already got her $4 million in damages from the estate of the chimp owner... but the lawyer no doubt convinced her that somehow, the state of CT needed to learn a $150 million lesson for not passing a law earlier that would make that chimp illegal... of course, the $150 Million would come from the pockets of the hardworking good people of the state of CT.  What lesson do they learn in that case?  They need to elect people to make laws to prevent completely unpredictable occurrences before they happen?  No, the actual lesson to the people of CT then is "unless we elect officials who we allow to make a million laws governing our every move, we will pay dearly". 

[pianoman9701]

I agree with this decision to throw out. Different circumstance. Now, if the city owned the chimp, that would be a different story.

Absolutely - very different circumstance, but a good illustration of the idea that the government with deep pockets should be held accountable for everything.  She already got her $4 million in damages from the estate of the chimp owner... but the lawyer no doubt convinced her that somehow, the state of CT needed to learn a $150 million lesson for not passing a law earlier that would make that chimp illegal... of course, the $150 Million would come from the pockets of the hardworking good people of the state of CT.  What lesson do they learn in that case?  They need to elect people to make laws to prevent completely unpredictable occurrences before they happen?  No, the actual lesson to the people of CT then is "unless we elect officials who we allow to make a million laws governing our every move, we will pay dearly".

Agreed. As far as the $4M award is concerned, if I lost my face, I would probably think that's peanuts, too. But, i wouldn't be going after the state for it. I fully expect some of my HW friends to add that on me, that woulnd't be a great loss!

[JackOfAllTrades]

If I was illegally mistreated or harrassed by a peace officer, I would take the award, pay my attorney, buy another gun or two and probably donate an amount to a worthy cause.  Being swept by a shottie barrel out huntin birds, being scoped by a poor choice of hunting practice by a fellow hunter, or being handed an unchecked weapon at the gun counter are all poor choices/actions, but they are certainly not the same as haveing a LEO (or anyone) take a defensive position while aiming his/her weapon at my center mass point blank. At that point, it is safe to assume a loaded weapon. It is safe to assume that any movement by me can be considered aggressive. At that point, it would be safe to assume that my life could be ended in a flash. I'm not the one wearing the vest....
 
Compensation and assurance that there would be training extended to the force, a repremand filed, along with an appology from the LEO that should know the law should be in order. That said, I do realize that those in blue are not attorneys/judges with in-depth knowledge of all laws.  That's why we have a court system. Still, for such as was reported I would think LEO's of this state to be just as well versed in Open/Concealed Carry RCW's as any umpire should know how to interpret the Infield Fly rule in Baseball.
 
-Steve

Granted, I used those examples as "over-the-top" extensions of the logic to illustrate my point.  I agree they are not likely to be something someone would seriously consider getting compensation for.  But in this case, are you saying you would have contacted an attorney about being unjustifiably drawn upon and used their services to seek "damages" from the municipality? What would the basis of your damage claim been?

 
THERE IS NO REASON WHAT SO EVER FOR A NON-COMBATANT TO EVER HAVE THEIR LIFE THREATENED BY A LEO. NEVER!  Just the act of being drawn upon is that threat.  Not knowing all of the legal'eze, I would have explored my options.  They are employed to serve and protect, (And most are pretty darn devoted to doing just that.), as the officer was possibly responding to a call that someone felt threatened by this guy having a firearm in plain sight; he probably thought he/she was doing thier job. I expect them to do it properly. We are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
 
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of frivolous lawsuites for extraordinary moneys... But I do believe that to be a traumatic situation that was uncalled for. I think that fifteen grand was a good number.. Ten might have even sufficed. In most cases I don't think it is the money so much as acknowledgement of a wrong and a path to training so it doesn't happen to someone else. No different than rewards for pain and suffering from a motor vehicle accident. Sure, fix my car. Pay my medical bills.  I'll just sweep the stress and family/hunting/work events that I've missed for the last six months while I was in the hospital in pain, under the rug and call it all good.  -Not!
 
 
-Steve

[Bean Counter]

Skillet: Pianoman is right on. Idk how much time you've spent in or around government but nothing will get an agency, LEO  or otherwise, to change bad behavior than having to fork over $$$. And yes, the gentleman is entitled to compensation to make him whole. 

[MadHatter]

There is actually a thread over at OCDO with his story...

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?98075-Bellingham-police-draw-down-on-Open-Carrier/page10

[MadHatter]

I am not sure why people are calling this ambulance chasing... The guy's life was put in danger by an over-zealous cop... While I will defend LE, there are rogues out there that give them all a bad name.  This incident here was the THIRD incident with B'ham PD over acting this way towards people that were just open carrying.  This was becoming a trend with them, to the point that someone was going to be killed by them for doing nothing wrong. 

So not only does he get some $$$ out of it, which is punitive in nature, he is also working with ohers from the OC community to get the proper training for B'ham PD.  They are not only doing OC either, they are setting up training on how to deal with ALL legally armed citizens...

[Alchase]

Compare this to any other "Civil Rights Violation" the $15K should come straight from the Cop's paycheck or face termination.