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Author Topic: Working up a load?  (Read 8704 times)

Offline kerrdog

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Working up a load?
« on: August 25, 2013, 08:56:36 AM »
It's fairly common to read that "each rifle is different and prefers a specific load" to function best.  In the days of handmade rifles which were individually built, this would seem to be obvious.  It's harder for me to imagine that two modern inline rifles are different enough to actually fire differently given identical loads.  The tolerances in manufacturing are very precise.....at least more precise than other variables, i.e,  the variation in power charge measured by volume, the air temperature, the barrel temperature, the moisture level of the powder, bore fouling, the shooter....etc....etc....

Even different brands of rifles must be closer tolerances than other variables.  They are mostly 50 caliber bores with a 1/28 or 1/48 twist.  Barrel length (and therefore, muzzle velocity) seems like it would be the main difference, which has less to do with accuracy on a 100 yard range.

Are we really talking about working up a load that the shooter "believes in ?".....rather than what the rifle likes?  I'm sure many of you will disagree, based on your individual experiences (also called anecdotal evidence) which is completely unscientific, and based on individual human perception at a single point in time, rather than actual repeatable numbers and statistical analysis.

So tell me I'm full of crap, or shut up about "working up a load." Just put in 100 or 120 grains of powder, your favorite bullet.......and shoot more.



Offline jay.sharkbait

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2013, 09:21:16 AM »
It's fairly common to read that "each rifle is different and prefers a specific load" to function best.  In the days of handmade rifles which were individually built, this would seem to be obvious.  It's harder for me to imagine that two modern inline rifles are different enough to actually fire differently given identical loads.  The tolerances in manufacturing are very precise.....at least more precise than other variables, i.e,  the variation in power charge measured by volume, the air temperature, the barrel temperature, the moisture level of the powder, bore fouling, the shooter....etc....etc....

Even different brands of rifles must be closer tolerances than other variables.  They are mostly 50 caliber bores with a 1/28 or 1/48 twist.  Barrel length (and therefore, muzzle velocity) seems like it would be the main difference, which has less to do with accuracy on a 100 yard range.

Are we really talking about working up a load that the shooter "believes in ?".....rather than what the rifle likes?  I'm sure many of you will disagree, based on your individual experiences (also called anecdotal evidence) which is completely unscientific, and based on individual human perception at a single point in time, rather than actual repeatable numbers and statistical analysis.

So tell me I'm full of crap, or shut up about "working up a load." Just put in 100 or 120 grains of powder, your favorite bullet.......and shoot more.

You are full of crap

Offline barracuda163

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2013, 09:59:46 AM »
You don't think there are any less variables than building an accurate hand  load for a rifle  or tuning a bow/ arrow combination? You are full of crap.

Offline kerrdog

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2013, 12:44:32 PM »
You don't think there are any less variables than building an accurate hand load for a rifle  or tuning a bow/ arrow combination? You are full of crap.


HuH? I think I see the point you are trying to make, but your mis-worded statement falls under  the "straw man" fallacy.

from wikipedia:

A straw man or straw person is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[3][4] This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged, emotional issues.
 
I'm curious, what is your 'unique' load for your 'unique' rifle.  And would you bet that 10 grains of powder (measured by volume, not weight)....more or less... would change your Point of Impact more than all the other confounding variables combined?

My logic is based on the notions of:

Confounding Variables
Anecdotal Evidence
Significant Figures
And since you brought it up, Logical Fallacy.   (google them if you don't know what they mean.)

By the way, I'm not sure that I'm right about any of this. :chuckle:  "Don't believe everything you think."

Offline jay.sharkbait

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2013, 12:57:18 PM »
Now you're really full of crap   :chuckle:

Offline barracuda163

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2013, 02:46:37 PM »
did you happen to write the game regs? Thats a lot of copy and pasting

Offline kerrdog

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2013, 03:12:15 PM »
OK then.  What load ya'll shooting? :chuckle:

Offline barracuda163

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2013, 05:07:38 PM »
trade secrets man.   Go shoot your own rifle a hundred times and figure out a load for it.  Two identical rifles will not have same POI or group at the same target using the same load on the same day, its just a known fact.  My two identical knight bighorn .50 rifles differ slightly at 100 yds using the same load.  I'm not saying I have to have two seperate setups for the rifles but even at 100yds, the difference is minimal as far as a smokepole goes with open sights. and I'm confident in either rifle.   150g pyrodex pellets, 240g hornady xtp

Offline kerrdog

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2013, 06:58:43 PM »
trade secrets man.   Go shoot your own rifle a hundred times and figure out a load for it.  Two identical rifles will not have same POI or group at the same target using the same load on the same day, its just a known fact.  My two identical knight bighorn .50 rifles differ slightly at 100 yds using the same load.  I'm not saying I have to have two seperate setups for the rifles but even at 100yds, the difference is minimal as far as a smokepole goes with open sights. and I'm confident in either rifle.   150g pyrodex pellets, 240g hornady xtp

You figure it will take me 99 times to try 3 pellets instead of 2? Or should I just start and finish with the max recommended load and skip the 100 trips. :chuckle:

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2013, 07:41:44 PM »
trade secrets man.   Go shoot your own rifle a hundred times and figure out a load for it.  Two identical rifles will not have same POI or group at the same target using the same load on the same day, its just a known fact.  My two identical knight bighorn .50 rifles differ slightly at 100 yds using the same load.  I'm not saying I have to have two seperate setups for the rifles but even at 100yds, the difference is minimal as far as a smokepole goes with open sights. and I'm confident in either rifle.   150g pyrodex pellets, 240g hornady xtp

You figure it will take me 99 times to try 3 pellets instead of 2? Or should I just start and finish with the max recommended load and skip the 100 trips. :chuckle:

In my case... there really is not much to work up... I shoot either 110 grains of T7-3f or 120 grains of T7-3f depending on the bullet I choose to use and the animal I am hunting.  The bullet really doesn't matter that much for shooting paper or clay pigeons.  At the range I shoot a simple plain Sierra .458-300 grain HP. It prints about the same pattern as the bullets I shoot for hunting.  Either a .458-275 grain Bloodline or .458-300 grain Bloodline and or a .458-305gr Lehigh.

This a 300 grain Bloodline DOA and the 275 looks just like only a bit shorter...



This is the 305 - which I call the buffalo bullet because of it's success harvesting buffalo with a 45-70 rifle



So for me not much really to work up... I can stay at 2 1/2" all day @ 100 yards with a scope. With open sights it does expand a little but I can shoot clay pigeons expecting 1 shot 1 bird.

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Rooster1981

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2013, 08:23:32 PM »

My rifle is can be very temperamental. I shoot a 54 cal hawkens and i just doesn't like shooting Hornady great plains no matter what the powder charge is. I'm all over the paper. But I drives tacks with 430 grn maxi balls. So that's what I shoot, even though I have to buy the slugs online. Since T/C stopped making the 54. cal line of maxi balls I had to find a differant supplier.
Hunting hounds since 1993

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2013, 08:34:28 PM »

My rifle is can be very temperamental. I shoot a 54 cal hawkens and i just doesn't like shooting Hornady great plains no matter what the powder charge is. I'm all over the paper. But I drives tacks with 430 grn maxi balls. So that's what I shoot, even though I have to buy the slugs online. Since T/C stopped making the 54. cal line of maxi balls I had to find a differant supplier.

I am wondering, how much longer is the is the great plains bullet you are shooting vs. the 430 Maxi.  With a 1/48 twist in your Hawkins you might be able to stabilize a bullet much longer than the 430... Just throwing that thought out...
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Duffer

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2013, 10:34:25 PM »
It's fairly common to read that "each rifle is different and prefers a specific load" to function best.  In the days of handmade rifles which were individually built, this would seem to be obvious.  It's harder for me to imagine that two modern inline rifles are different enough to actually fire differently given identical loads.  The tolerances in manufacturing are very precise.....at least more precise than other variables, i.e,  the variation in power charge measured by volume, the air temperature, the barrel temperature, the moisture level of the powder, bore fouling, the shooter....etc....etc....

Even different brands of rifles must be closer tolerances than other variables.  They are mostly 50 caliber bores with a 1/28 or 1/48 twist.  Barrel length (and therefore, muzzle velocity) seems like it would be the main difference, which has less to do with accuracy on a 100 yard range........

I'm not giving you any crap, but I think this is part of what needs to get sorted out. From what I understand, there is no 'standard' for a 50cal bore diameter. Those who are way more experienced than me on muzzleloaders know like it's chiseled in stone somewhere that certain brands are 'tight' while other brands are 'loose'. Muzzleloader manufacturing just does not seem to get the tight tolerance machining that modern rifles do.

What I do know from personal experience is this: I poured my own 440gr 500S&W conicals, lubed and sized them all to .501 and pushed them with 80gr of RS FFg thru both my new Extreme and my used Bighorn. Same everything except for the actual rifles. The Bighorn threw them wonderfully. The Extreme....well...... I gave up for now even getting them on paper reliably at 50yds. These monsters can do a lot of damage going thru an animal SIDEWAYS, but the accuracy is less than desired!  :yike:
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Offline kerrdog

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2013, 07:20:48 AM »
It's fairly common to read that "each rifle is different and prefers a specific load" to function best.  In the days of handmade rifles which were individually built, this would seem to be obvious.  It's harder for me to imagine that two modern inline rifles are different enough to actually fire differently given identical loads.  The tolerances in manufacturing are very precise.....at least more precise than other variables, i.e,  the variation in power charge measured by volume, the air temperature, the barrel temperature, the moisture level of the powder, bore fouling, the shooter....etc....etc....

Even different brands of rifles must be closer tolerances than other variables.  They are mostly 50 caliber bores with a 1/28 or 1/48 twist.  Barrel length (and therefore, muzzle velocity) seems like it would be the main difference, which has less to do with accuracy on a 100 yard range........

I'm not giving you any crap, but I think this is part of what needs to get sorted out. From what I understand, there is no 'standard' for a 50cal bore diameter. Those who are way more experienced than me on muzzleloaders know like it's chiseled in stone somewhere that certain brands are 'tight' while other brands are 'loose'. Muzzleloader manufacturing just does not seem to get the tight tolerance machining that modern rifles do.

What I do know from personal experience is this: I poured my own 440gr 500S&W conicals, lubed and sized them all to .501 and pushed them with 80gr of RS FFg thru both my new Extreme and my used Bighorn. Same everything except for the actual rifles. The Bighorn threw them wonderfully. The Extreme....well...... I gave up for now even getting them on paper reliably at 50yds. These monsters can do a lot of damage going thru an animal SIDEWAYS, but the accuracy is less than desired!  :yike:

Yes, that's a good point. By "Extreme" do you mean "Disk Extreme?"  If so, I would really think that the two green mountain barrels would be really close in bore diameter and rifling. But yes, I've ready many times that the bore diameter does vary. Thanks.

Offline grundy53

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Re: Working up a load?
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2013, 08:06:23 AM »
trade secrets man.   Go shoot your own rifle a hundred times and figure out a load for it.  Two identical rifles will not have same POI or group at the same target using the same load on the same day, its just a known fact.  My two identical knight bighorn .50 rifles differ slightly at 100 yds using the same load.  I'm not saying I have to have two seperate setups for the rifles but even at 100yds, the difference is minimal as far as a smokepole goes with open sights. and I'm confident in either rifle.   150g pyrodex pellets, 240g hornady xtp

You figure it will take me 99 times to try 3 pellets instead of 2? Or should I just start and finish with the max recommended load and skip the 100 trips. :chuckle:
A lot if people shoot loose powder. Not pellets.

By the way you are full of carp.:)):))

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