Since Wolves

[AspenBud]

2 Loss of habitat, such as from forests getting too old, roads and new subdivisions, ever expanding cities, even farming   although farming can also help some species. But in some areas hunting is managed to keep animal populations artificially low to prevent crop damage..

I work with a guy whose Dad owns a farm out in Pennsylvania. His thought on white tails? They are rodents that you can't exterminate fast enough. The only reason his folks don't pay to have them hunted is because people will pay to do so.

[AspenBud]

Compounding the predator problem with wolves is the issue..............and for no apparent scientific reason.  Purely special interest groups.

Funny, In Yellowstone Park the riparian habitat is making a comeback due to the fact the elk can't overbrowse and destroy that critical habitat as they are chased of by wolves. That leads to a much stronger food chain and much more diverse prey base which in the end results in a larger carrying capacity for all animals.

But why would anyone care if they are just trying to get thier elk. lol

The thing I never see talked about is what is the optimal number of elk, moose, deer etc in areas that they are being impacted by wolves? A hunter will always want more, but what is optimal both for hunters and predators? Even without wolves that's a reasonable question to ask.

[KFhunter]

This isn't AK,  Washington pales in comparison with suitable wolf habitat vs Alaska.  Your "Wolves in Alaska" really has no place in the debate about wolves in the lower 48 states.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Wolves or any other predator will have negligible effects on over all cervid numbers if good habitat and weather conditions exist.

There are three main causes of game die offs and wolves aren't one of them.

1 Severe winters or other weather related events such as drouth.

2 Loss of habitat, such as from forests getting too old, roads and new subdivisions, ever expanding cities, even farming   although farming can also help some species. But in some areas hunting is managed to keep animal populations artificially low to prevent crop damage.

3 Disease, which can run rampant when too any animals are crowded into too small of an area.

In years past, you could have added human hunting and poaching, but with modern game management, that isn't as much of an issue as it once was.

I see!

Let me stoop down to knee high level to talk to you then if I must.

1 Severe winters or other weather related events such as drouth.

Elk/Deer can survive tough winter conditions if left to weather out the storm unmolested, but if you have a pack of wolves pushing them they die off due to "weather related" events.  Wolves don't even have to sink a tooth in an Elk to kill it.  I've followed them myself, or rather followed the wolves following the Elk.  The poor Elk don't even get a chance to lay down and the wolves got them up on their feet running again.  They burn calories and slow down the wolves get easy pickings.  A severe storm rolls through and the already stressed animals die off due to "winter kill".  The wolves don't even have to sink a single tooth in an Elk to kill it.

2 Loss of habitat, such as from forests getting too old, roads and new subdivisions, ever expanding cities, even farming   although farming can also help some species. But in some areas hunting is managed to keep animal populations artificially low to prevent crop damage.

what's your point?  Just rambling on about the current state of affairs - too many people 

3 Disease, which can run rampant when too any animals are crowded into too small of an area.

Wolves only pick off the sick or diseased - the weak   

[AspenBud]

1 Severe winters or other weather related events such as drouth.

Elk/Deer can survive tough winter conditions if left to weather out the storm unmolested, but if you have a pack of wolves pushing them they die off due to "weather related" events.  Wolves don't even have to sink a tooth in an Elk to kill it.  I've followed them myself, or rather followed the wolves following the Elk.  The poor Elk don't even get a chance to lay down and the wolves got them up on their feet running again.  They burn calories and slow down the wolves get easy pickings.  A severe storm rolls through and the already stressed animals die off due to "winter kill".  The wolves don't even have to sink a single tooth in an Elk to kill it.

3 Disease, which can run rampant when too any animals are crowded into too small of an area.

Wolves only pick off the sick or diseased - the weak   

You just contradicted yourself.

[KFhunter]

Ya'll make me feel like I'm arguing with a toddler that just watched a Disney show about talking wolves.



....and for the record -again- I am not anti-wolf. I am pro-wolf management.

[AspenBud]

....and for the record -again- I am not anti-wolf. I am pro-wolf management.

We're on the same page there.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I see!

Let me stoop down to knee high level to talk to you then if I must.

1 Severe winters or other weather related events such as drouth.

Elk/Deer can survive tough winter conditions if left to weather out the storm unmolested, but if you have a pack of wolves pushing them they die off due to "weather related" events.  Wolves don't even have to sink a tooth in an Elk to kill it.  I've followed them myself, or rather followed the wolves following the Elk.  The poor Elk don't even get a chance to lay down and the wolves got them up on their feet running again.  They burn calories and slow down the wolves get easy pickings.  A severe storm rolls through and the already stressed animals die off due to "winter kill".  The wolves don't even have to sink a single tooth in an Elk to kill it.

2 Loss of habitat, such as from forests getting too old, roads and new subdivisions, ever expanding cities, even farming   although farming can also help some species. But in some areas hunting is managed to keep animal populations artificially low to prevent crop damage.

what's your point?  Just rambling on about the current state of affairs - too many people 

3 Disease, which can run rampant when too any animals are crowded into too small of an area.

Wolves only pick off the sick or diseased - the weak   

First, stand up and talk like a man.

1 So you're trying to tell me, that in the pre wolf re-introduction days that there was no such thing as winter kill because elk/deer are such super animals they can survive with no food to eat? That only since the re-entry of wolves into the scene have deer and elk died from bad winters? I can show you example after example where you are wrong.

2 Habitat, what's my point? Too many people? Well, that's part of it. There's even a thread on this site about too many people out hunting and another about how rude and thoughtless many of them are. But that wasn't my point. My point was, if you take away habitat, for whatever reason, however many animals once lived there will not be there any more. Go hunt deer in downtown Seattle. They used to live there. Tell me loss of habitat didn't affect that deer population. Human activity also affects migration routes. Too, you may not have noticed I mentioned old forests. That has nothing to do with too many people unless you want to talk about fire suppression to protect homes, or greenies fighting to stop logging.

3. No predators don't just pick off the diseased animals or the weak. They still have to eat when there are no sick animals around. But given a choice, they tend to go for the most vulnerable animals available which is the sick or weak or old or young. This insures they use up less of their energy reserves and also helps protect them from injury. It's not easy bringing down big animals, even with a pack. Wolves make a lot of false charges testing out potential prey. If an animal shows the ability to protect it's self, they'll move on for a different victim. Now when things get tough, they'll take greater risks as they can't live forever waiting for weakened prey. No, the only predator that pretty much always goes after the biggest, healthiest breeding stock purposely is man.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Ya'll make me feel like I'm arguing with a toddler that just watched a Disney show about talking wolves.

....and for the record -again- I am not anti-wolf. I am pro-wolf management.

I might argue all your wolf experience is from watching werewolf movies. But that would be pretty childish and it doesn't get us anywhere.

Your condescension of people with wolf experience because those wolves weren't "Washington wolves" is also rather childish.

But I'm sure you have your good points. And if you're being honest about wanting wolf management, that's probably one of them. But you have to accept that your idea of management might not be the same as the guys doing the work. You're not the only guy they have to please.

[Special T]

....and for the record -again- I am not anti-wolf. I am pro-wolf management.

We're on the same page there.

So that means you think we should have year round open season, trapping, Arial gunning right? That is how the Canadians manage them, and how the Alaskans did before Arial gunning was taken away by referendum.

[Cougartail]

[/quote]

So that means you think we should year round open season, trapping, Arial gunning right? That is how the Canadians manage them, and how the Alaskans did before Arial gunning was taken away by referendum.
[/quote]

Might want to check the regulations before you make ridiculous statements like that. They not only have seasons in Canada but bag limits in many areas. In Alaska they still have active control areas and seasons.

Wolf haters seem to know little about wolves and wolf management but spout a lot of misinformation.

[Elkaholic daWg]

....and for the record -again- I am not anti-wolf. I am pro-wolf management.

We're on the same page there.

So that means you think we should year round open season, trapping, Arial gunning right? That is how the Canadians manage them, and how the Alaskans did before Arial gunning was taken away by referendum.

 I detected a little sarcasm there Cougtail.......

[mountainman]

Rat...lol  The BIG difference between me and most on this site is I've lived, hunted, and trapped in Alaska.  I also have hunted and trapped in Washington for 20+ years.

Those oldtimers who have trapped for years in Alaska shake thier heads at the "wolf haters".  If you ask anyone of them in the know they will tell you bears are as hard on ungulate populations as wolves.

Hey what do they know? They couldn't hold a light to the experts on this site...geez!

This isn't AK,  Washington pales in comparison with suitable wolf habitat vs Alaska.  Your "Wolves in Alaska" really has no place in the debate about wolves in the lower 48 states.

Totally different habitat...deer numbers (and domestic losses) speak for themselves..

[wolfbait]

Wolf haters? What exactly made people dislike wolves? The USFWS along with state game agencies release wolves on people and then protect them above humans. The USFWS and state game agencies refuse to confirm wolf killed livestock or confirm known wolf packs, and lie about the impact wolves are having on the game herds. The wolves are not being controlled the way that was promised at the beginning of the wolf introduction. Ranchers who dislike wolves also blame the USFWS etc.. The wolves are doing what they are allowed to do.

Where did wolf lovers come from? Wolf lovers are people who have never had to see or deal with the destruction caused by wolves, they haven't witnessed the lies of the USFWS and state game agencies. In the 1950's the USFWS started the pro-wolf propaganda, comparing wolves to the human family, they have fed lies to the public for a generation and are still doing it today with the help of state game agencies and mainstream media.

There hasn't been any wolf management/control in the lower 48 since the beginning of the introduction, in order to control wolves 50% needs to be killed each year just to keep the population even, 70% to decrease wolves. In Alaska/Canada where wolves are both hunted and trapped, aerial hunts are still used to control wolves where they are decimating game herds.

The Wolves introduce into the lower 48 evolved chasing larger game in a vast wilderness, therefor they are larger wolves then we had before the introduction.

 Ed Bangs said he wanted a wolf that could really kill the hell out of elk, and he found just what he was looking for up in Alberta.

[Special T]

While not quiet correct because they don't have an open season like coyotes the do allow LOTS of tags. BC did some arial gunning to ATTEMPT to help the woodland caribou in thier SE corner.

Bears are Hard on unglulates. Since hound hunting was taken away from us as a tool, and even the pursuit season in the NE what has the state done about bear harvest? They COULD increase spring bear permits a bunch. 

I may have to join several others in skagit valley and just buy my bear tag and hunt predator only, "just to do my part".

I think its sad that the WDFW fails to realize that MOST people are only willing to shell out $$$ to hunt deer and elk. Since they fail to manage predators, or at least make it easy for hunters to, the department is making decisions that are foceing themselves into a slow death as an agency. 

[AspenBud]

Bears are Hard on unglulates. Since hound hunting was taken away from us as a tool, and even the pursuit season in the NE what has the state done about bear harvest? They COULD increase spring bear permits a bunch. 

I may have to join several others in skagit valley and just buy my bear tag and hunt predator only, "just to do my part".

When hunting up in the Toutle unit a couple of weeks ago I saw A LOT of bear poo. In fact I don't think there has been a place that I've hunted where I haven't seen any sign of bear. They are not in short supply and judging from the size of some of their blowouts I'm seeing on the path they aren't small either.

Coming across a good amount of cougar scat and prints as well as coyotes.

I've seen deer on every outing and have come across elk tracks, but signs of predators are far and away more common. That's no joke.

I think its sad that the WDFW fails to realize that MOST people are only willing to shell out $$$ to hunt deer and elk. Since they fail to manage predators, or at least make it easy for hunters to, the department is making decisions that are foceing themselves into a slow death as an agency. 

At least in the case of hound hunting, I don't think you can really blame the WDFW. The voters are at fault for that one.