Eastern Washington Elk

[BOHNTR]

 Living at the foot of the Blues I have seen the Elk population grow and shrink, I think the bull to cow ratio is pretty high.....but the number of permits seem to shrink every year. the Muzzleloaders used to have a cow hunt if you got drawn that used to be 100-125, now it's 60. There are wolves in the area but WDFW doesn't count them as a breeding pair because they breed in Ore. which is only a stones throw away, the Cougars have increased as well as the bears, so calf survival isn't the best any more. Until WDFW wants to get serious about predator control i.e. allowing hounds for cougar and expanding the spring bear season by allowing OTC tags and not making it a draw only, I don't see anything getting any better.
The point system is OK however it takes on average 10-12 years to get drawn. 

[ScottyG]

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=569537

Attached is a pretty good example of the kind of dialogue that you can find among Oregonians related to the Oregon draw system.

The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Thank you for posting that link!  Very informative.  The grass really isn't greener on the other side of the river.

Actually, it is. They have much better hunting than we do, and that's due mostly because they have draw only hunts for deer and elk on the east side of the state.

If you read the ifish thread you would have seen that many of the posts are saying they would like to do away with the general season hunts and make EVERYTHING by draw only, including archery hunts and deer and elk on the west side of the state.

Well, that is certainly one interpretation of the content and value of that string, but its not the only interpretation.  Many of the posts are about the unhappiness of people with the Oregon draw system and about the hunting being a shadow of what it once was.  Oregon's system is no panacea.  Its just a different way of dolling out an ever shrinking pie to an ever growing number of people who want a piece.  The Oregon system has created a hunter base that is just as disgruntled with ODFW and the ODFW system as the people on this forum seem to be, in general, with the WDFW and the WDFW system for allocating tags and managing the resource.  My only reason for posting was to point out to all the people that think Oregon is the land of great hunting and great hunting opportunity, that many Oregonians would completely disagree. 

[bobcat]

My only reason for posting was to point out to all the people that think Oregon is the land of great hunting and great hunting opportunity, that many Oregonians would completely disagree. 

I understand. But see, those people that aren't happy with the hunting in Oregon probably haven't hunted here! And they're unhappy because of the perceived mis-management, but at least the ODFW attempts to manage the resource, by allocating a certain number of tags to each unit. Whereas the WDFW does no such thing.

In fact the WDFW is so hell bent on selling as many tags as possible that they allow people to purchase their deer and elk tags AFTER they kill an animal. (No, not legal but it happens since there is no deadline to buy your tags)

[KopperBuck]

My only reason for posting was to point out to all the people that think Oregon is the land of great hunting and great hunting opportunity, that many Oregonians would completely disagree. 

I understand. But see, those people that aren't happy with the hunting in Oregon probably haven't hunted here! And they're unhappy because of the perceived mis-management, but at least the ODFW attempts to manage the resource, by allocating a certain number of tags to each unit. Whereas the WDFW does no such thing.

In fact the WDFW is so hell bent on selling as many tags as possible that they allow people to purchase their deer and elk tags AFTER they kill an animal. (No, not legal but it happens since there is no deadline to buy your tags)

I've hunted both my whole life, there's benefits to both. Point creep in Oregon is atrocious. You don't have to declare a weapon, so folks put in for tough units, don't draw, and then pick up a bow. Or for deer, those on the WETside put in over here, don't draw, and hunt general over there. I've given up on thinking about drawing some of the harder units, and probably be 10-15 yrs before I draw a goat tag. I like the sheep and goat format.

[bobcat]

Point creep....yep and that's why people on ifish were saying they need to do away with ALL the general seasons including archery. Make it all permit only. That way people can't continue to hunt every year while building up points for some of the better hunts.

[et1702]

I'm not sure how you can say the WDFW is doing a terrible job if you agree with the unlimited tags, and no management whatsoever system the WDFW is currently using.

Because they are doing a great job for the people who want to hunt deer and elk every single year, whether there are any animals to shoot or not.

In this state there is no need for planning ahead. Buy your deer and elk tags at anytime, even during the season, and hunt any GMU in the entire state. Well, in the case of elk you do have to pick east or west.

But that's it. That is the entire management scheme, that's how they manage the number of hunters in each GMU, and that is how the WDFW regulates the number of animals harvested by GMU. Which is to say, they DO NOT manage. All they do is sell licenses and tags. They're not concerned with excessive harvest in certain units.

You're right- we do have too many people in this state- too many people who want to hunt deer and elk every single year! And that is why we need some kind of management to limit the number of hunters by Game Management Unit.

They do manage it by making us choose our weapon (Archery, ML or Modern).  Based on the percentage of each user group, they also allow more open units (i.e., rifle gets greater number than archery, archery = > number than ML).  As an archery guy, I really only have three or four eastside elk units that I can hunt each year, and only a couple of those open to cow or spike.  Yes, i know there are more than 3 or 4 units open on the east side, but if I'm going to drive all the way to the NE corner, I might as well pick up an Idaho tag too...LOL.  Plus, the percentage of Bull tags or Buck tags, Sheep, etc. are based on the hunter success of each group and the number of hunters.  Plus, the overall number of hunters in WA leveled out several years ago and has been dropping.  The issue w/ too many people is that there are too many other user groups that are competing w/hunters now, too much private property, too much pay for access, too many wolves, no real regulation of native american harvest numbers or practices, etc, etc, etc.

It's a very complicated issue.  But, in no way do we have unlimited tags in WA.  If it was unlimited, I'd be able to hunt all three weapon seasons and pick any unit statewide that I wanted to hunt.  Guess what, I still remember being able to do this 30 to 40+ years ago growing up in New Mex and AZ.  Not possible anymore due to population growth and other user groups in these states as well as all other western US states.  the main problem I have w/WDFW is that they really don't know how many critters of each species we actually have in this state.  When was the last time they did a real population survey, instead of just a quick fly-over?  It's been a very long time.  Also, can anyone tell me why the wolf biologist is also the Mule deer bio in the Winthrop/Okanogon area.  Seems like a BIG conflict of interest to me!

ET

[bobcat]

ET, that is not wildlife management in my opinion. People management, maybe. But you said it yourself- the WDFW does not know how many animals are in each unit. And they do not allocate a specific number of tags to be used in each GMU. They rely on total randomness. Hunters in general, can hunt any unit they want. How does the WDFW know the proper number of animals will be taken out of each unit? They don't. And they have no control over how many people hunt in each unit every year. What exactly are their wildlife biologists being paid to do?

[KopperBuck]

Point creep....yep and that's why people on ifish were saying they need to do away with ALL the general seasons including archery. Make it all permit only. That way people can't continue to hunt every year while building up points for some of the better hunts.

I don't agree with getting your 2nd - 4th choices and keeping your points. Or how about building points while taking LOP tags (I'm guilty....).

[KopperBuck]

Another difference between Oregon and Washington is something around 3 million people.

[Alan K]

Open general season in the region you live in, permit only for other regions.   

Man, wouldn't that be nice! 

[kentrek]

I have an idea...

Lets just raise the price of tags to 10x the current amount..the folks that view hunting as a priority will fork out the coin every year an the ones that don't ( road hunters) won't even go hunting thus reducing the hunting presure significantly..the ones who can't afford it on a yearly based will just have to save there pennies until one day being able cash in an get a tag..

While this was written in sarcasm font its resembles the same outcome as a draw only system

The funny thing about resource allocation is there's many way to achieve the same result so why chose a method that cuts oppertunity ??

[bobcat]

The funny thing about resource allocation is there's many way to achieve the same result so why chose a method that cuts oppertunity ??

What method is there that would reduce the number of hunters in the field and NOT reduce opportunity? 

[kentrek]

The funny thing about resource allocation is there's many way to achieve the same result so why chose a method that cuts oppertunity ??

What method is there that would reduce the number of hunters in the field and NOT reduce opportunity? 

Its a density problem (or demand problem for you econ guys)

To decrease density you must increase the area...to decrease demand you must increase supply..

Open up more areas for people to hunt every year an people will spread out thus reducing the over all hunting pressure for each area...so yes I'm referring to removing permit areas..I beleive this would have the same impact to the elk herd as a permit system yet still give us oppertunity

Just look what has happened with wecco going permit only ? The amount of people forced down south to hunt must have been huge..it only makes sense that the revearse would be just the opposite trend...so why wouldn't it work with opening draw areas aswell ??

[kentrek]

I'm not being very brilliant with words tonight so hopefully I conveyed my point well