Starting a pup in the woods

[yorketransport]

I had a chance to take Pepper (WPG) out to run around looking for critters today. While she seems to be having fun, I feel like the check cord is holding her back and slowing her down. I don't want to just turn her loose, but I want her to have a pretty free run of things. I was thinking about an Ecollar, but I'm not sure if 6 months is too young to start her on something like that.

The good news is that I have her worked up to being pretty comfortable around the gun shots. I started with a 22 pistol from about 25 yards away and now she does fine with a 20ga. In fact she starts looking for something dead as soon as she hears the shot. We're still working on actually finding the bird though.



Andrew

[Bmcox86]

I'm going to start this out with, in my opinion
Get the E collar, get her excited about it and put it on her when you run her. Don't use it unless you really have to. It's a good safe guard. Let her run and do her thing. I recommend a garmin also just so you know where she is. My pup started wearing his collar at 5 months, never used it unless something absolutely needed. He's gets very excited when he sees me bring the collars out of the closest.
I barely ever use the collar, but it's there and has saved his life, he was chasing a bird towards a road as a pup and wasn't turning, tapped him once and he did a 180 and came right back to me.
Just an opinion

[ghosthunter]

You don't need a check cord that heavy.
Get parachute cord. Lot easier on the dog.

Train to come to whistle no matter what.

[Birdguy]

E collars with a beeper or vibrate option is a great tool for this type of situation. Just because it is an e collar does not mean it has to be used as a shocking device. As mentioned by Bmcox86 e collars when used for the right reasons are a very valuable tool get one early and use it often (meaning put it on the dog) and you will both be happier.

[yorketransport]

I've been trying to decide what style collar to start with. I was a little worried about the gps collars because of the size and weight. I thought that she may be a little small still for that. I was considering one of the simpler electronic leashes to start with while we run together. Right now she wears a chain training collar while we run and she responds well to a command and lite pressure on the collar.

Sounds like it's time to start seriously researching the E collars.

Andrew

[Bmcox86]

I have a sportdog 1825 and like it, and I have a garmin astro with dc30, my dog wears both and he's only 45 lbs, he doesn't seem to notice them. Get something good with a good range to start with so you don't need to upgrade later, lots of good deals online for used garmins and some really good deals on new sportdog, tri tronics and dog tra collars on some of the bird dog forums. I recommend something with a mile range because while you probably won't ever need a mile, when your hunting on the east side the canyons and draws can affect the signals

Good luck, if you have any questions feel free to pm me.

[Navajo97]

Yorktransport we have had my five month old GSP out a couple times this year (plus run him daily in the back pasture and woods) . The first time we took him to the pheasant release site later in the day and today we took him to eastern WA. He was more worried about where we were most of the time. To keep tabs on him we ran him with a Dogtra 2500 T&B (train and beep, built in beeper collar). We mostly use the locator on the beeper and would only use the shock portion for emergency circumstances.

Here is Cooper:

[Happy Gilmore]

Bird = gunshot training before going hunting. Teach then hunt to get more. I won't Hun a dog under a year or two old. Creates bad habits.

[AspenBud]

If you have the money buy a Garmin Alpha, if you don't have the money buy one of the many e-collar/beeper combos. Just make sure the dog understands what's happening when you use the collar. As in, overlay the collar with the commands you have taught it. Don't just go out and zap the dog expecting it to run back to you.

I've never hunted with a Griff, but my understanding is they aren't terrifically big runners. If that's true, you're experience probably won't be a lot different from my AKC Pointer and the dog will check in a lot.

[deltaops]

The Springer I just got is trained by a whistle. He comes back with very little issues. Now if I can get him to drop the bird when I tell him too, it will be a great day. Working on it though! 

[yorketransport]

I've never hunted with a Griff, but my understanding is they aren't terrifically big runners. If that's true, you're experience probably won't be a lot different from my AKC Pointer and the dog will check in a lot.

That's one of the traits that drew me to the Griffons. I'm a west side hunter and usually just walk the logging roads looking for grouse. I don't need a dog to run out 200+ yards ahead and cover that much ground.

I like the idea of the Garmin Alpha system. I've found other people's dogs out in the woods before only to find out that the hunter is miles away! I have a hard time believing that even a well trained dog isn't going to get distracted and take off every once in a while. The Garmin would at least let me know where she's at.

Andrew

[KFhunter]

You don't need a check cord that heavy.
Get parachute cord. Lot easier on the dog.

Train to come to whistle no matter what.

I like mule tape, almost zero drag as the dog runs around brush and such. 


I experemented a lot with CC,  hated the ropes as they drag so much the dog thinks your yanking on it all the time.  Also used cable that was coated with plastic, not bad but hard to grab and holds kinks.

get yourself some extra snaps and tie on a length of mule tape, super easy to see in the brush - easy to grab, strong and very little drag

[KFhunter]

you don't need GPS hunting up here, a bell would suffice but honestly with a pretty close working dog you're going to hear them in the brush a lot too.

save you money, hopefully the GPS stuff will come down in cost a little more

[bracer40]

Some of the guys in my training group use orange air hose. It's light, doesn't snag easily, non-absorbent, and easy to get ahold of.

[AspenBud]

I experemented a lot with CC,  hated the ropes as they drag so much the dog thinks your yanking on it all the time. 

With some higher drive dogs that's exactly what you want. My problem with them, especially in thick cover, is the dogs tend to get tangled. My all time favorite was finding a Pointer pup of mine who had decided chasing a frog was fun and wrapped himself around a tree and the snags on the ground in the middle of a swamp.   

I use these, well not now since all of my dogs have grown, but for free runs as pups I never had a problem with these getting stuck on anything and the dogs definitely didn't slow down.

http://www.dogsunlimited.com/i/2170/mendota-super-cord-hi-viz-yellow-check-cord.htm

[KFhunter]

that stiff rope might be just the ticket too - I haven't tried that one.





This one is also very interesting to me, I'll probably try this out next time I need a CC
http://www.gundogsupply.com/k-9-komfort-30--biothane-check-cord.html


This looks like the cats azz

[Stilly bay]

This check cord is the shiz.
 http://www.lcsupply.com/LCS-Tangleproof-Check-Cord/productinfo/CC1/

It doesn't tangle or snag on brush what so ever. I have had mine for close to 15 years now and it still works great..

[wildweeds]

Lose the choke chain if your gonna let the dog run free,it's a bad bad idea to leave that on for hunting,especially if you got a rope/cord/muletape/airhose anything on it.Have that thing hang up on a branch at full speed and your gonna be on your way to the vet for a crushed windpipe,have the dog jump off the right embankment and the cord hangs up,your going to be shopping for a new dog.Choke chains are,well outdated and unneccessary in todays age.Far better methods and devices exist.

[yorketransport]

Lose the choke chain if your gonna let the dog run free,it's a bad bad idea to leave that on for hunting,especially if you got a rope/cord/muletape/airhose anything on it.Have that thing hang up on a branch at full speed and your gonna be on your way to the vet for a crushed windpipe,have the dog jump off the right embankment and the cord hangs up,your going to be shopping for a new dog.Choke chains are,well outdated and unneccessary in todays age.Far better methods and devices exist.

The chain is only on her while we are running on the roads around the house with her on a short leade. She wears a leather collar while in the woods for that exact reason. To me, calling the chain a choke collar is like calling an E collar a shock collar. If that's how you use it, you're doing it wrong.

I'll give some of these ideas a try. I'm sure that as she gets used to it the cord won't bother her as much. But I'll still look into some of the light weight styles. I'll probably pick up an E collar as well to start working that in while using the CC.

Andrew

[wildweeds]

I don't use a choke collar and that's what I call the things because thats what I've seen the most of with them.I use an astro,As to an e collar/shock collar it does the exact same thing it shocks so I  calls it what it is,i don't sugar coat nothing.I've seen more misuse of a e collar than it used the right way, nicking is right,flat out zapping until you hear a yelp is wrong.I got my naughty dog back on sunday with my astro,while rounding him up in thick cover I found another dog that was wearing a zapper,that dog was lost in the thick stuff too.I heard the guy yell for the dog and then  shock the dog who yelped.What was wrong there?

Lose the choke chain if your gonna let the dog run free,it's a bad bad idea to leave that on for hunting,especially if you got a rope/cord/muletape/airhose anything on it.Have that thing hang up on a branch at full speed and your gonna be on your way to the vet for a crushed windpipe,have the dog jump off the right embankment and the cord hangs up,your going to be shopping for a new dog.Choke chains are,well outdated and unneccessary in todays age.Far better methods and devices exist.

The chain is only on her while we are running on the roads around the house with her on a short leade. She wears a leather collar while in the woods for that exact reason. To me, calling the chain a choke collar is like calling an E collar a shock collar. If that's how you use it, you're doing it wrong.

I'll give some of these ideas a try. I'm sure that as she gets used to it the cord won't bother her as much. But I'll still look into some of the light weight styles. I'll probably pick up an E collar as well to start working that in while using the CC.

Andrew

[Stilly bay]

I found another dog that was wearing a zapper,that dog was lost in the thick stuff too.I heard the guy yell for the dog and then  shock the dog who yelped.What was wrong there?

*censored*! I lost count of how many times I came across a lost or confused pup at the release area with the owner no where in sight. Meanwhile the dog is flinching and yelping from getting zapped, and its looking at me for help, and the yelps get louder as the owner turns up the intensity of the shock collar because he thinks his dog isn't responding. The dog gets even more confused and sticks to me like glue because it doesn't have the foggiest idea about what is happing to it... probably because it was never collar conditioned in the first place.
I will take an ecollar off a dog and chuck it in a situation like that.

[wildweeds]

Stilly got it,dont EVER EVER NEVER use the Ecolllar/Zapper/Shock collar/Hand of Zeus/Hammer of Thor  whatever you want to call it .................. without having an actual eye on the dog.I can guarantee this,only 10% of dog owners who strap a collar on obey this one simple rule.

I found another dog that was wearing a zapper,that dog was lost in the thick stuff too.I heard the guy yell for the dog and then  shock the dog who yelped.What was wrong there?

EFFING AHOLES! I lost count of how many times I came across a lost or confused pup at the release area with the owner no where in sight. Meanwhile the dog is flinching and yelping from getting zapped, and its looking at me for help, and the yelps get louder as the owner turns up the intensity of the shock collar because he thinks his dog isn't responding. The dog gets even more confused and sticks to me like glue because it doesn't have the foggiest idea about what is happing to it... probably because it was never collar conditioned in the first place.
I will take an ecollar off a dog and chuck it in a situation like that.

[bracer40]

Stilly got it,dont EVER EVER NEVER use the Ecolllar/Zapper/Shock collar/Hand of Zeus/Hammer of Thor  whatever you want to call it .................. without having an actual eye on the dog.I can guarantee this,only 10% of dog owners who strap a collar on obey this one simple rule.

I found another dog that was wearing a zapper,that dog was lost in the thick stuff too.I heard the guy yell for the dog and then  shock the dog who yelped.What was wrong there?

*censored*! I lost count of how many times I came across a lost or confused pup at the release area with the owner no where in sight. Meanwhile the dog is flinching and yelping from getting zapped, and its looking at me for help, and the yelps get louder as the owner turns up the intensity of the shock collar because he thinks his dog isn't responding. The dog gets even more confused and sticks to me like glue because it doesn't have the foggiest idea about what is happing to it... probably because it was never collar conditioned in the first place.
I will take an ecollar off a dog and chuck it in a situation like that.

And for the 90% the reason why the button should NEVER be pushed unless one has an eye on their dog?..................
Because the collars for correction, not punishment! And how can a dog be corrected for something when they're out of sight? Why they might be locked up on point or getting close to it and if joe jackwagon shocks his dog he's associating birds with pain. Birds should be all good for the dog!

[Happy Gilmore]

leaving a flat collar on a dog is just as dangerous as a choke collar. I lost a dog while two were playing unattended. Dogs playing get canine teeth caught under a flat collar and one roll and the dog suffocates. Flat collars also will get hung up.

There is nothing wrong with a choke chain and used for hands on obedience. I've used a choke collar quite forcefully to control dogs which have been allowed to be out of control for too long by their owners. Watched many others do the same without ever causing harm or injury to a dog. Watching pointer trials and hunt tests I see a ton of dogs which could use a lot more. Few if any will heal to the line let alone stay without someone holding the dog. A premier hunting dog is a complete package not just something that roams big as the west and holds point. That's just one little small piece of the entire picture.

I want a perfect mouth, steadiness, manners(not barking and going ape crazy when they aren't working) and style. Nothing worse than going hunting and having someone with three dogs that are unruly barking, howling and bouncing all over scaring the birds into the next county. Using proper tools including choke chains, pinch collars, e-collars, check cords etc- I use each one every day of the week.

[AspenBud]

I have a plastic crate that has grooves in the plastic from one of my dogs getting so wound up at the prospect of hunting. I want a Pointer that has a ton of desire, a ton of point, is biddable, and responsive.

Duck dogs and even some versatiles, their job description requires some different training and a higher level of "control" is desirable.

With a Pointer or a setter I do not want that. I want a dog that will seek out game as efficiently as possible, hold a point until I get there, and the rest is fluff. But nowhere in there does that mean "out of control."