Most Versatile Hunting Dog

[RC3]

I'll admit I haven't even read this whole thread.  Somehow I see it got on to pointing dog field trials which I'll admit I don't know a whole lot about ( although I have witnessed them).  So I was just basically trying to say what Shannon did about tests and v-dogs, I just didn't do as good a job stating that. 

[Happy Gilmore]

In the circle of people I test with in NAVHDA, the majority use Evan Graham's Smart Fetch series to train there dogs. This originated in the retriever world so I'm not sure how different we train. Most drop off when it comes to major retriever handling on blinds but the basics are the same.

As far as domestic breeds, once your two generations out from the grand dam, most people feel there is so little left that it doesn't matter. Just primarily the dam. So, that will narrow down most choices of foreign bred dogs to about 0.005% based upon how difficult it is to import dogs with waiting periods and quarantines.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this but if I understand it, the majority of the dogs tested in NAVHDA are domestic.

That's my point exactly. The FF to a retriever has little to do with picking up the bird for a retrieve. That is just a tiny part of it in the big picture. FF teaches dogs to cope with pressure. It is really their first experience with it. It's a fine line and should be a fine line of what isn't enough pressure and applying too much. This prepares the dog to cope with the stresses which come with training. Force to pile, force to water, de cheating drills, handling etc- All processes which have little to no value to "most" pointing dogs. While many pointers can be fairly tough dogs, when put on a table most turn to jello.

[Shannon]

I guess I don't get your point. We force to pile, force to water, do T work-nobody said anything about not applying pressure. I would say the biggest difference is most in the pointer world don't get as advanced in retrieving drills and we FF at a little older age than retrievers on average. I think you can get away with much more pressure on a retriever also because so much of there work is obedience driven. If you do brutal tactics on a pointer, there flare and style goes away in a heart beat. It's two completely different worlds between pointers and retrievers. One is all about how much control we can have at any distance (retrievers) and the other is how much can you get out of a dog with as little handling as possible while in the field but yet still have the dog under control. I cringe when I run with a guy that blows his whistle more than a few times in a day while upland bird hunting. I've literally hunted all day without a single command except to fetch. That's my idea of a great day with a great dog. Its a night and day difference and the transition from retriever to pointer worlds isn't easy for most. Some lab guys wake up in a cold sweat with the thought of there dog flying around at full speed 300+ yards out sometimes out of sight for a while.  That free spirit is what I enjoy the most about pointing dogs.

[jetjockey]

Sometimes out of sight?  My dogs almost always out of sight.  The beep of the Garmin alerting me to a point is music to my ears!!!

[Happy Gilmore]

Shannon, That's why I said "most". Running Navhda you have to have some of the skills which have traditionally been "reserved" for training retrievers. I expect to see more as there are a lot of GSP folks interested in running AKC hunt tests from the buzz I've heard. When it comes down to it, I'm not sure there will probably be more than one. you know how that stuff goes. As for Navhda in general, I think its a cool venue for people to utilize all the skills the dogs versus just one attribute. The "V" being the most important to the average hunter who wants to do a bit of everything. Jump shoot a duck after hunting down the reaches for chukar comes to mind.

[JLS]

It's two completely different worlds between pointers and retrievers. One is all about how much control we can have at any distance (retrievers) and the other is how much can you get out of a dog with as little handling as possible while in the field but yet still have the dog under control. I cringe when I run with a guy that blows his whistle more than a few times in a day while upland bird hunting. I've literally hunted all day without a single command except to fetch. That's my idea of a great day with a great dog. Its a night and day difference and the transition from retriever to pointer worlds isn't easy for most. Some lab guys wake up in a cold sweat with the thought of there dog flying around at full speed 300+ yards out sometimes out of sight for a while.  That free spirit is what I enjoy the most about pointing dogs.

Very well stated.  That perfectly sums up my conversion from a lab to a GWP.  I constantly remind myself to just shut up and let him work.   

[rosscrazyelk]

I have to say I admire the spunk and determination that alot of you have for your dogs. Pointing or whatever..  With that said I am going to throw my hat into the ring. I have had a german short hair when I was younger, great dog.. Also had a lab.. Great dog.  I now have a weim that I inherited from a friend . Good dog needs more work. but he does find birds... Now I can say if you want to talk versitile I mean seriously versitile My Boykin Is phenominal. He is only 38 pounds. He is not huge but he is huge in heart. He runs my friends pointers til they are tired. He swims for hours and I mean hours. When we go to potholes on our bi annual camping trip he will jump in the lake and literally will not touch land for 45 minutes. will retieve anything. Duck, Geese, Phesant, Quail, Chuckar and grouse. And not that its legal here but he also Is bred to hunt Turkeys. My friends labs give up when he is going strong.  He is not a huge dog where his tail will knock stuff over. He is the perfect size house dog  kind to kids loves attention but also like to be alone. Literally in my opinion PERFECT.
I have friends who have literally bought Boykins because of my dog. Oh yeah and two of them were bought from Pens fan...
 Yes Pointers and all the other breeds have History so you can all go on with your arguments But I will tell you unless you been around a hunting Boykin you have not  seen the most versitale dog..

[JLS]

Boykins are cool dogs.  Kind of like a mini Tigger.

[rosscrazyelk]

I must also add. Is a great frisbee dog will literally stop in his tracks and dig up a mole.  Also is a rat catching  machine.  And to top it all off a snuggler. Not to mention will sit by my baby and just watch her

[Spikorbust]

Not sure how pointing makes a dog more versatile. Everyone has there favorites and it's usually what they own or have hunted behind. I do the same and say Field Springer just for the fact they are plain fun to hunt behind. They aren't the most graceful more like a bull in a china shop but the do it with a smile always hard charging and the only thing the stops them is you.  They don't care if the goose is as big as them. They're good with diving under water to get a bird. They won't miss a bird in the field or a retrieve. They hunt very fast but yet stay close. Best of all they do it pretty natural and make you look like a great trainer with limited knowledge or effort. They're a smart dog and just want to please without shocking the crap out of them. That's my vote.


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[AspenBud]

Not sure how pointing makes a dog more versatile.   


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It doesn't. It's just a term used to differentiate between true pointers like Pointers and setters versus dogs that have more than pointing/retrieving in their job description.

[jetjockey]

The reason V dogs have traditionally been pointing dogs is because of tracking and hunting fur.  Historically "versatile" didn't refer to just bird hunting, but hunting birds, pigs, deer, etc.  A pointing dog always used its nose to hunt, it's a true hunting dog.  Retrievers are based much more on obedience and do what their handlers tell them to do.  Pointing dogs are much more independent.