Yellowstone is Dead

[jon.brown509]

After studying your graph, it looks like since 1995 we traded 15,000 elk for 40 wolves, 1200 bison and 10 beavers 

Yep the YNP can only support about 8,000 max "Al nash one of the main YNP biologist for elk has said that 8,000 would be the max number it could so yes we traded elk to help stabilize the park not only for smaller gm but the atnelope have rebounded due to coyotes being killed by wolves

[jon.brown509]

It does suck  but try to understand what yellow stone is and was supposed to be. I wish i was alive back in the 70's myself to see what 18,000 elk would have looked like 

[jon.brown509]

Mr. Brown you cannot seriously think that biologist's have killed more wolves than hunter's ever have. Where are you going to school at? You say that hunting has replaced wolf predation over the year's and agree that reintroduction will put the herd population back in check so where will the excess ungulates be that hunter's will be able to pursue? How will this not hurt hunting opportunities in the future? Also I would love to see photo's of area's that have been decimated by over grazing from ungulates besides cattle. Working in a chemical and pesticide company I see firsthand what happen's when rangeland is left ungrazed and weeds aren't kept in check by grazing whether it be cattle or deer and elk. Who's going to pay for weed control if things grow as tall and pretty as your picture suggests they will? Someone should redraw that pic with alot of knapweed, thistle's, russian thistle, skeleton weed, koschia and pigweed and all the other weed's kept in check by ungulates that eat them. Chemical's are not the answer either. What is prederation? Or preadation for that matter? Ignorance is bliss!

I know biologist have they have been killing them since the 70's.Elk hunting well go down which it did "sucks too" but now the herds have stabilized around 4,000 to 5,000  in YNP for the last 4-5 years .Hunting well always be around just not the same hunts we were blessed with for a lil bit.Most of those weeds only live in disturbed sites not where native plants well grow.Range land is a pretty disturbed site where non native grasses are at now.

[RadSav]

I remember the discussions before they did the introduction.  Number of elk was almost non-existent as a concern.  The reason they brought in the larger wolf species was to control the bison herd (or so we were told) which was and apparently from that graph still a concern.  And they move into the wintering areas long before the elk and deer get there.  By the time the antlered animals arrive the bison along with ranchers cattle have that meal plate pretty much empty.  A lot of the anti-wolf introduction advocates tried to explain that bison were not going to be the wolfs top food source.  We were told in no uncertain terms we were wrong and that wolves were the very best option to keep the bison herd in check.  1,200 more bison...I think we were right and they were wrong

I'm curious if there is a study comparing the expansion of beaver colonies in the park compared to those outside the wolf range.  Last time I checked beaver populations during that time frame were on the increase all across America.  Even in territories unpopulated by wolves.  I'd like to see a picture shot with a little wider lens before I put too much credit in their validity. 

We also have to take a look at the spike in elk numbers after the big fires in the park.  That's a natural cyclical occurrence the eco nazis like to ignore. 

And what about moose and blackbear numbers?  I know that moose numbers are dropping all across their range and there are numerous studies trying to figure that out.  Can they recover and deal with the increasing wolf numbers at the same time?  Why are NE Washington and Idaho black bear numbers dropping at such a rapid rate?  I know there are ongoing studies to figure that one out as well.  One of the more popular theories (still a theory at this point) is that the wolves after diminishing the elk numbers are digging them out of their dens.  It's fact that in NWT the big bears and wolves have virtually eliminated the black bear populations outside of the small rural areas by doing just that!  Combined with a series of short and poor berry crops can the black bear populations recover and adapt in time with the rapidly increasing wolf numbers?

Seems there are still a lot of questions yet to be answered.  And from our short history of post wolf introduction we know we can not trust the Wolf advocates to give us accurate and open minded answers.

[RadSav]

BTW - I had a nice PM message back and forth with this jon.brown509.  Seems like a good kid even if he is a green horn   Thankfully I was wrong about the school he is attending.  There is hope for him after all 

[Knocker of rocks]

  Thankfully I was wrong about the school he is attending.

They must not teach spelling and grammar there

[Gringo31]

I think that we all agree if we did nothing, predators and prey would find a balance.

I think the part that most folks miss is thas ISN'T OUR GOAL.  We try to maximize the prey herds over the long run.  WE want to keep the herd in check by our own harvest.  The less predators, the more harvest for us.  How is wildlife management possible if the answer is do nothing?

I suppose I don't have a problem if those in charge want wolves in Yellowstone.  My problem is when their solution becomes my problem.  By this I mean, keep them in Yellowstone.

[RadSav]

I think that we all agree if we did nothing, predators and prey would find a balance.

The problem is that the human predator does not populate at a rate consistent with the balance of food/wild game.  And our game management models are designed for that human predatory model with a short season each year.  You start throwing in an additional major predator whose hunting season is unrestricted and the balance can not take place unless you remove either the new predator or the old one, the human one.

[KFhunter]

 


The story isn't going to play out the same across all the states and YNP,  a lot of the stuff we're learning from YNP isn't really relevant to other public and private lands.

[wolfbait]

The story isn't going to play out the same across all the states and YNP,  a lot of the stuff we're learning from YNP isn't really relevant to other public and private lands.

Correct, as we have seen in both OR and WA wolves are showing up first in cattle ranching areas, Why is this happening? Are wolves more attracted to livestock then say elk, deer, or moose on their "migration" from Idaho?

[jon.brown509]

  Thankfully I was wrong about the school he is attending.

They must not teach spelling and grammar there

lol    This is curse I've had since I can remember.I'm taking extra English classes so that my grammar and spelling won't suck so bad.Understand this a post about YNP not individuals spelling and grammar lol.
 I know you guys love my pictures but here's one where Ed Bangs was taking before and after pics of the land scrape around yellow stone.Also, one I wish we had was a chart for how fast the coyote population has crashed and in a result how fast the pronghorn are now growing .

[JLS]

Contrary to what most folks would like to believe, Ed is a pretty hard core bowhunter.  A traditional guy if I recall correctly.

The north entrance to YNP looked like the Gobi Desert in the late 90's.

[snowpack]

You mention the coyote population crashing, but there was a thread around here that interviewed a bio from YNP that noted it.  Said that when wolves first arrived they hammered the yotes, but that yotes are now more solitary and their population has returned to pre-wolf levels.

[jon.brown509]

The story isn't going to play out the same across all the states and YNP,  a lot of the stuff we're learning from YNP isn't really relevant to other public and private lands.

Correct, as we have seen in both OR and WA wolves are showing up first in cattle ranching areas, Why is this happening? Are wolves more attracted to livestock then say elk, deer, or moose on their "migration" from Idaho?

 Because new packs are started by Alphas who haven't learned stay the hell away from livestock yet and end up getting members of the packs killed.Than the farmer gets compensated for his loss and hopefully gains trust in knowing that if there's a problem that it well be taken care of right away.I know this is happening right now with the Wedge pack  up north in WA by Canada

[RadSav]

Did this Ed Bangs say anything about those first two pictures?  Anything about the fact the first picture shows what looks to be ice and snow and the other does not?  The difference in pictures between only a few weeks in the NE can show similar results.

I'm not doubting this Bangs character.  But pictures need a story.  How long since the last freeze?  Are pictures equal in years with rainfall totals and temperatures?  Where were the bison roaming between these two years.  Many other questions would need to be answered in an environment like YNP before one could put any weight between year to year photos.  There are just too many variables to rely on photographic proof without a complete workup on content and environmental equivalency.