turkey age for Wacenturion

[Hangfire]

Since your qualifications and relations to our turkey population is now known ( I knew who you were/are any way). I have a question. The jake turkeys that we will see this coming spring 2014, were hatched when. I had heard that they were the previous years young, in this case 2013. It appears to me when looking at the young on the winter grounds that the 2014 jakes must  be 2012 hatch. Is that so. I also have observed that the turkeys in NE Washington seem to build to a high population and then drop to a much lower number.  This seems to happen in specific local areas, not the whole region. I know there is a name for that biological event but can not find out what it is.  I know of a couple of localized areas that 8-10 years ago there were a abundant number of birds and now very few, ex- one land owner had 80+ birds wintering in area and now 5 at the most.  I know the past couple of very wet springs have impacted the population in the NE corner but there was a declining population in much of the area of north west Spokane and south east Stevens counties before the wet springs. We still have a well distributed turkey population but much smaller flocks and over all population decline.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

I am not the expert, but I know in my area of SW Wa. that between the coyotes that come running to my turkey calls and raccoons that seem to be everywhere, not to mention poaching, I am surprised that any survive. The flocks I have located stay approx. the same in number, no noticeable growth. I am sure the age class changes, but survival rates are pretty low.

[turkeydancer]

Not "The Expert" either, but I can tell you that populations will go in cycles and  there are several factors that lead to population shifts in an area. 

Changing habitat is one where turkeys will move out if the habitat becomes less favorable for them as relates to food sources, cover for nesting, logging ops removing nest trees, etc.
Weather such as deep snow increasing mortality rates, wetness which can affect hatch survival, etc can play a large role also. 
Predators (including hunting pressure) can move turkeys away from an area.   
As the season change they move from lower to higher elevations.
And during the breeding cycle they will spread out to increase chances of overall hatch survival.

As far as jakes - last years hatch is this years jakes. 

Hope this helps ....

[Hangfire]

Last years hatch being this years Jake's is what I always thought. I have been watching a flock of over 200 birds on the winter area. This flock appears to be all hens and spring/summer 2013 hatch. I see no Jake's at all, short beard, center tail feathers longer. I see at times near but not connected a flock of gobblers with   Jake's as indicated by tail feather and beard length. Since we have had these very wet springs with late hatches I wondered if this affected maturity.

I am aware of cyclic population changes and the impact of habitat as new houses, logging and crop changes, but what I have been seeing is very large declines in some specific areas beginning before the wet springs. The hunting pressure has not changed. The one area is several sections in size. I am wondering also if the predator population is a severe impact. I feel that as coyotes get educated on how to take turkeys this may be occurring. A flock that winters near my home is often followed by one to two coyotes usually staying back 100-200 yards. I have been told that a single coyote will have a very difficult time getting a healthy adult turkey.

[huntnphool]

Just sent Dan a text, I'm sure he will chime in once he gets it.

[turkeydancer]

Yotes usually only get the very young or the infirm ... once a young bird starts flying into the trees, the yotes end up a lot hungier.

Yelp would be another good expert for your questions as well as WaCent ....

[Wacenturion]

Jake's and Jenny's are that one sees during the fall, winter and into the spring of the next year are birds born from as early as mid to late April through September of that year in the case of fall and early winter birds or the previous year in regards to seeing them in late winter or early spring.

To simply answer your question...2014 Jake's are born in 2013.

There are numerous factors that come into play when looking at increases and declines in population numbers.  Weather probably being at the top of the list for all upland birds, especially the first few weeks of life.  Get perfect weather and production goes way up.  Get lousy wet weather right at peak of hatching and production is way down. 

Predation also takes it toll on turkeys again, especially the first few weeks of life.  Until poults are two weeks plus they are "grounded".  After they reach two weeks old they can make short upward flights into lower limbs of trees and large bushes.  Once they have improved on this skill, predation losses drop off significantly.  As far as predator losses to adult birds, I'll sum it up by repeated what a peer of mine, a longtime Missouri turkey biologist, who once told me when we were horsetrading for birds.  He said in relationship to predator loss in adult turkeys.

"If a predator gets an adult turkey, something was wrong with the turkey."

It was meant in the context of oversimplifying the issue.  Obviously predators do take adult birds, but it isn't the norm.  I have personally watched coyotes chase a hen back and forth for over 20 minutes with the hen flying just out of range, landing and waiting for the coyote to make it's run only to repeat the same maneuver.  Eventually coyote give up and leaves.  I have also witnessed a coyote come running non stop into a field at a big gobbler only to have the gobble get aggressive and stop him in his tracks and make him move away, eventually leaving the field.  That gobble was pretty intimidating.
I have seen Eastern virtually disappear for days or weeks upon arrival of eagles in an area.  That can play hell on your trapping efforts.  Don't ask me how i know. 

Habitat changes from things as fires, logging, whatever, will also affect numbers.  Reduce the amount of desired habitat and you reduce carrying capacity and numbers.  Conversely, improve or add habitat and you add numbers to the population.  Habitat that naturally changes over time, also can affect numbers.  That is so evident on the westside and our Easterns.  People get frustrated because where they had been seeing Easterns for a couple years, now they are absent.  They think predators or poor production have obviously resulted in their demise.  Not so.  In western Washington it rains and rains and rains, as we all know.  Couple that with generally moderate temperatures and you have accelerated plant growth.  What used to be preferred habitat for these birds has literally outgrown them.  As simple as that.  They are still in the area, but have moved in an effort  to find a new area that now duplicates what they used to have.  Thus the game of burning shoe leather to find them starts all over again.  They are out there somewhere in a 360 degree circle, at any given distance.  If one knows what they like habitat wise, then it makes the search easier.  This of course would not be as much of a factor on the eastside however.

Hunting although it has virtually no impact in the spring when removing gobblers, it can have impacts  in some circumstances in the spring and especially in the fall.  First my concern in the spring.  Again removing gobblers has little impact, as hens are bred or will be by one gobble or another mature or otherwise in some cases.  Where there is an impact is where two gobblers are allowed in the same area, more specifically on the same day.  In my opinion that does nothing more than to encourage "flock shooting".  Instead of concentrating on that trophy, mature or otherwise, many get caught up in the success mode.  An example would be...in comes six or seven goofy Jake's responding to your calls.  You and you buddy(s) are sitting in wait.  They arrive and in the hopes of "limiting", all involved open up.  Now the possibility of wounded birds flying off enters the equation.  Believe me it happens. 

In addition, just how many turkeys in a day does one have to kill to be successful.  Good grief.  Personally I would rather have two memorable hunts, whether I kill a bird or not than one double.  This regulation allowance of two birds in the same county and in the same day, also decreases the possibility of someone else hunting that area later in an attempt to have their own successful memories.  It also promotes in some instances, unsafe turkey hunting.  Just my two cents.

Last but not least, fall hunting.  Let me be clear that the liberal fall seasons we have now are primarily for one reason and one reason only.  That is to eradicate turkeys.  WDFW is too damn lazy to invest in field staff to actually help landowners like was previously done under the Upland Wildlife Restoration Program I developed and managed, during the 90's.  We had 20 field staff statewide, and when there was a nuisance problem we came together a team and addressed the landowner's concern.  All the staff including myself had L&I explosives licenses and well as extensive trap and transfer training that I had staff complete refresher courses on every year.  Never had landowner issues because we trapped and removed birds.  Ironically most landowners didn't want them all taken.

The benefit to you as sportsman was that that trapped excess went somewhere else, many times it was to introduce birds into new areas or add some new blood back into areas that already had birds.  It was a huge win win in spite of many in WDFW would put roadblocks up at every turn.  Then came a reorganization and the Lands Program went under Wildlife Management, which resulted in things coming to a complete halt for the most part.  Those in control didn't want anymore new turkey areas, or any birds moved for that matter if they could avoid it.  When the program and it's staff was reduced and the duties of those remaining were directed elsewhere, they essentially ended any possibility to trap and move birds.  They now had the perfect excuse.

So without trapping and moving birds, the toilet backed up and landowners now got pissed.  Can't blame them for starting to really dislike turkeys as they saw it as problem left to them.  In response WDFW kept making fall seasons and bag limits more liberal.  That again in an effort to eliminate birds.  Many successful fall hunters shoot that lead bird...the monarch of the flock when it comes to going, coming, safety...that smart wiley mature, proven successful poult producing hen is now gone.  Removal of these and other "bigger" hens, does nothing more than reduce poult numbers in the spring.  Juvenile hens, you know the smaller ones that probably don't get shot due to size, are new to the nesting and rearing game and don't contribute nearly as much as proven mature nesters.....fact.  Fall hunting also teaches "flock shooting" and promotes unsafe turkey hunting.  Again my personal opinion.  If one must take fall birds, take jakes or gobblers.  Wait and pick your bird, as you'll be doing yourself a favor.  In fact fall seasons should be the same as spring...gobblers or bearded birds only.  It's all about opportunity.  With gobblers you still have the same opportunity to go afield, but your target is different.

Since my answer(s) is getting longer than anticipated, I'll stop at this point. 

     

[boneaddict]

Nice write up, and great information. 

I watched a coyote work a flock of about 20 birds this November.  I sat on a cliff above and was entertained while I ate some jerky and caught some sun.  I think those birds were having fun with that poor coyote.  Looked like a game of Marco Polo or schoolyard tag your it, with the poor sucker in the middle.

[huntnphool]

  Good stuff Dan.

[baldopepper]

Good Stuff   couldn't agree more on the fall beardless hunt - more of a drive by shooting fest than anything else.  I don't care much for the late winter hunt either, this winter has been easy, but previous ones I've seen the big flocks chased and broken up when the stress of a hard winter was already pushing them to the limit.  WDFW doesn't seem to much give a d--- about upland birds of any species, not sure why.

[Yelper Guy]

Good info - good responses guys. I also have a hard time with the late turkey season.
Shooting a hen is like shooting yourself in the foot IMHO.

Additionally, my first Jake's beard was barely visible, it must have been a later spring or early summer born bird.
Some later season Jakes may not even have a visible beard until later spring.
Gettin' itchy for April!

[MerriamMagician]

Excellent stuff Wacent. I too hate the fall season and wish they would either eliminate it all together or reduce the seasons and limit it to bearded birds only. I'm only 24, but I can remember the huge flocks of birds that we used to see in the Northeast in the early 2000's when I was first getting into turkey hunting. One large property we have always hunted usually held 20-30 gobblers each spring. Now it averages only 6-10 per spring. Same thing with almost all the properties and state land we hunt in that general area. Personally I would be in favor of eliminating or cutting back with the fall hunting and maybe increase the bag limit in the spring. Spring turkey hunting is my ultimate passion, and I would be in paradise if say they turned it into a three bird spring limit and the number of birds that used to be in Stevens county started climbing back up. Theres still a ton of birds, but from talking to biologists and other local hunters it is agreed that our current turkey population is only about 40% of what it was just ten years ago. This is just my  but I think that most hardcore turkey hunters would rather have a more dynamic spring season than those boring old fall seasons.

[bradslam]

Completely agree with what Dan had to say about allowing two birds to be harvested in a day and fall hunting.  By the way, Dan, my dad was the other hunter who harvested the slam the same year you did back in '96.  It sucks to see the changes to turkey management that have occured since then.  It makes me feel old to talk about the good ol' days.  Wish we could turn back the clock.

[Hangfire]

Thanks so much for the reply. I have seen this year, so many young birds in the 6 to 8 pound size range at Thanksgiving time, I didn't see how they could get to the 13 pound size of jake's by spring season.

I love to hunt spring birds normally with a 12 ga flint that I built. If I have a tag left over I will ambush a fall bird. I have tried to save the gobblers for spring and avoid a mature hen by taking a bird of the year, thinking they had the highest winter mortality rate. I have never seen a person hunting turkeys in the fall season, in the area where I live west of Deer Park, I do know they get hunted though.

I witnested the first release of Eastern's on Spencer road in Lewis county. They seemed to do well until the series of wet springs that began in 1995 or 96. I had seen as many as four flocks from Andy's tackle shop to Ethel the same trip,at the peak of that population.

I think it was you that told me that a coyote would have a very difficult time taking a healthy adult turkey.

[BOWHUNTER45]

yeah he knows a little bit about turkeys