turkey age for Wacenturion

[Hangfire]

Since your qualifications and relations to our turkey population is now known ( I knew who you were/are any way). I have a question. The jake turkeys that we will see this coming spring 2014, were hatched when. I had heard that they were the previous years young, in this case 2013. It appears to me when looking at the young on the winter grounds that the 2014 jakes must  be 2012 hatch. Is that so. I also have observed that the turkeys in NE Washington seem to build to a high population and then drop to a much lower number.  This seems to happen in specific local areas, not the whole region. I know there is a name for that biological event but can not find out what it is.  I know of a couple of localized areas that 8-10 years ago there were a abundant number of birds and now very few, ex- one land owner had 80+ birds wintering in area and now 5 at the most.  I know the past couple of very wet springs have impacted the population in the NE corner but there was a declining population in much of the area of north west Spokane and south east Stevens counties before the wet springs. We still have a well distributed turkey population but much smaller flocks and over all population decline.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

I am not the expert, but I know in my area of SW Wa. that between the coyotes that come running to my turkey calls and raccoons that seem to be everywhere, not to mention poaching, I am surprised that any survive. The flocks I have located stay approx. the same in number, no noticeable growth. I am sure the age class changes, but survival rates are pretty low.

[turkeydancer]

Not "The Expert" either, but I can tell you that populations will go in cycles and  there are several factors that lead to population shifts in an area. 

Changing habitat is one where turkeys will move out if the habitat becomes less favorable for them as relates to food sources, cover for nesting, logging ops removing nest trees, etc.
Weather such as deep snow increasing mortality rates, wetness which can affect hatch survival, etc can play a large role also. 
Predators (including hunting pressure) can move turkeys away from an area.   
As the season change they move from lower to higher elevations.
And during the breeding cycle they will spread out to increase chances of overall hatch survival.

As far as jakes - last years hatch is this years jakes. 

Hope this helps ....

[Hangfire]

Last years hatch being this years Jake's is what I always thought. I have been watching a flock of over 200 birds on the winter area. This flock appears to be all hens and spring/summer 2013 hatch. I see no Jake's at all, short beard, center tail feathers longer. I see at times near but not connected a flock of gobblers with   Jake's as indicated by tail feather and beard length. Since we have had these very wet springs with late hatches I wondered if this affected maturity.

I am aware of cyclic population changes and the impact of habitat as new houses, logging and crop changes, but what I have been seeing is very large declines in some specific areas beginning before the wet springs. The hunting pressure has not changed. The one area is several sections in size. I am wondering also if the predator population is a severe impact. I feel that as coyotes get educated on how to take turkeys this may be occurring. A flock that winters near my home is often followed by one to two coyotes usually staying back 100-200 yards. I have been told that a single coyote will have a very difficult time getting a healthy adult turkey.

[huntnphool]

Just sent Dan a text, I'm sure he will chime in once he gets it.

[turkeydancer]

Yotes usually only get the very young or the infirm ... once a young bird starts flying into the trees, the yotes end up a lot hungier.

Yelp would be another good expert for your questions as well as WaCent ....

[Wacenturion]

Jake's and Jenny's are that one sees during the fall, winter and into the spring of the next year are birds born from as early as mid to late April through September of that year in the case of fall and early winter birds or the previous year in regards to seeing them in late winter or early spring.

To simply answer your question...2014 Jake's are born in 2013.

There are numerous factors that come into play when looking at increases and declines in population numbers.  Weather probably being at the top of the list for all upland birds, especially the first few weeks of life.  Get perfect weather and production goes way up.  Get lousy wet weather right at peak of hatching and production is way down. 

Predation also takes it toll on turkeys again, especially the first few weeks of life.  Until poults are two weeks plus they are "grounded".  After they reach two weeks old they can make short upward flights into lower limbs of trees and large bushes.  Once they have improved on this skill, predation losses drop off significantly.  As far as predator losses to adult birds, I'll sum it up by repeated what a peer of mine, a longtime Missouri turkey biologist, who once told me when we were horsetrading for birds.  He said in relationship to predator loss in adult turkeys.

"If a predator gets an adult turkey, something was wrong with the turkey."

It was meant in the context of oversimplifying the issue.  Obviously predators do take adult birds, but it isn't the norm.  I have personally watched coyotes chase a hen back and forth for over 20 minutes with the hen flying just out of range, landing and waiting for the coyote to make it's run only to repeat the same maneuver.  Eventually coyote give up and leaves.  I have also witnessed a coyote come running non stop into a field at a big gobbler only to have the gobble get aggressive and stop him in his tracks and make him move away, eventually leaving the field.  That gobble was pretty intimidating.
I have seen Eastern virtually disappear for days or weeks upon arrival of eagles in an area.  That can play hell on your trapping efforts.  Don't ask me how i know. 

Habitat changes from things as fires, logging, whatever, will also affect numbers.  Reduce the amount of desired habitat and you reduce carrying capacity and numbers.  Conversely, improve or add habitat and you add numbers to the population.  Habitat that naturally changes over time, also can affect numbers.  That is so evident on the westside and our Easterns.  People get frustrated because where they had been seeing Easterns for a couple years, now they are absent.  They think predators or poor production have obviously resulted in their demise.  Not so.  In western Washington it rains and rains and rains, as we all know.  Couple that with generally moderate temperatures and you have accelerated plant growth.  What used to be preferred habitat for these birds has literally outgrown them.  As simple as that.  They are still in the area, but have moved in an effort  to find a new area that now duplicates what they used to have.  Thus the game of burning shoe leather to find them starts all over again.  They are out there somewhere in a 360 degree circle, at any given distance.  If one knows what they like habitat wise, then it makes the search easier.  This of course would not be as much of a factor on the eastside however.

Hunting although it has virtually no impact in the spring when removing gobblers, it can have impacts  in some circumstances in the spring and especially in the fall.  First my concern in the spring.  Again removing gobblers has little impact, as hens are bred or will be by one gobble or another mature or otherwise in some cases.  Where there is an impact is where two gobblers are allowed in the same area, more specifically on the same day.  In my opinion that does nothing more than to encourage "flock shooting".  Instead of concentrating on that trophy, mature or otherwise, many get caught up in the success mode.  An example would be...in comes six or seven goofy Jake's responding to your calls.  You and you buddy(s) are sitting in wait.  They arrive and in the hopes of "limiting", all involved open up.  Now the possibility of wounded birds flying off enters the equation.  Believe me it happens. 

In addition, just how many turkeys in a day does one have to kill to be successful.  Good grief.  Personally I would rather have two memorable hunts, whether I kill a bird or not than one double.  This regulation allowance of two birds in the same county and in the same day, also decreases the possibility of someone else hunting that area later in an attempt to have their own successful memories.  It also promotes in some instances, unsafe turkey hunting.  Just my two cents.

Last but not least, fall hunting.  Let me be clear that the liberal fall seasons we have now are primarily for one reason and one reason only.  That is to eradicate turkeys.  WDFW is too damn lazy to invest in field staff to actually help landowners like was previously done under the Upland Wildlife Restoration Program I developed and managed, during the 90's.  We had 20 field staff statewide, and when there was a nuisance problem we came together a team and addressed the landowner's concern.  All the staff including myself had L&I explosives licenses and well as extensive trap and transfer training that I had staff complete refresher courses on every year.  Never had landowner issues because we trapped and removed birds.  Ironically most landowners didn't want them all taken.

The benefit to you as sportsman was that that trapped excess went somewhere else, many times it was to introduce birds into new areas or add some new blood back into areas that already had birds.  It was a huge win win in spite of many in WDFW would put roadblocks up at every turn.  Then came a reorganization and the Lands Program went under Wildlife Management, which resulted in things coming to a complete halt for the most part.  Those in control didn't want anymore new turkey areas, or any birds moved for that matter if they could avoid it.  When the program and it's staff was reduced and the duties of those remaining were directed elsewhere, they essentially ended any possibility to trap and move birds.  They now had the perfect excuse.

So without trapping and moving birds, the toilet backed up and landowners now got pissed.  Can't blame them for starting to really dislike turkeys as they saw it as problem left to them.  In response WDFW kept making fall seasons and bag limits more liberal.  That again in an effort to eliminate birds.  Many successful fall hunters shoot that lead bird...the monarch of the flock when it comes to going, coming, safety...that smart wiley mature, proven successful poult producing hen is now gone.  Removal of these and other "bigger" hens, does nothing more than reduce poult numbers in the spring.  Juvenile hens, you know the smaller ones that probably don't get shot due to size, are new to the nesting and rearing game and don't contribute nearly as much as proven mature nesters.....fact.  Fall hunting also teaches "flock shooting" and promotes unsafe turkey hunting.  Again my personal opinion.  If one must take fall birds, take jakes or gobblers.  Wait and pick your bird, as you'll be doing yourself a favor.  In fact fall seasons should be the same as spring...gobblers or bearded birds only.  It's all about opportunity.  With gobblers you still have the same opportunity to go afield, but your target is different.

Since my answer(s) is getting longer than anticipated, I'll stop at this point. 

     

[boneaddict]

Nice write up, and great information. 

I watched a coyote work a flock of about 20 birds this November.  I sat on a cliff above and was entertained while I ate some jerky and caught some sun.  I think those birds were having fun with that poor coyote.  Looked like a game of Marco Polo or schoolyard tag your it, with the poor sucker in the middle.

[huntnphool]

  Good stuff Dan.

[baldopepper]

Good Stuff   couldn't agree more on the fall beardless hunt - more of a drive by shooting fest than anything else.  I don't care much for the late winter hunt either, this winter has been easy, but previous ones I've seen the big flocks chased and broken up when the stress of a hard winter was already pushing them to the limit.  WDFW doesn't seem to much give a d--- about upland birds of any species, not sure why.

[Yelper Guy]

Good info - good responses guys. I also have a hard time with the late turkey season.
Shooting a hen is like shooting yourself in the foot IMHO.

Additionally, my first Jake's beard was barely visible, it must have been a later spring or early summer born bird.
Some later season Jakes may not even have a visible beard until later spring.
Gettin' itchy for April!

[MerriamMagician]

Excellent stuff Wacent. I too hate the fall season and wish they would either eliminate it all together or reduce the seasons and limit it to bearded birds only. I'm only 24, but I can remember the huge flocks of birds that we used to see in the Northeast in the early 2000's when I was first getting into turkey hunting. One large property we have always hunted usually held 20-30 gobblers each spring. Now it averages only 6-10 per spring. Same thing with almost all the properties and state land we hunt in that general area. Personally I would be in favor of eliminating or cutting back with the fall hunting and maybe increase the bag limit in the spring. Spring turkey hunting is my ultimate passion, and I would be in paradise if say they turned it into a three bird spring limit and the number of birds that used to be in Stevens county started climbing back up. Theres still a ton of birds, but from talking to biologists and other local hunters it is agreed that our current turkey population is only about 40% of what it was just ten years ago. This is just my  but I think that most hardcore turkey hunters would rather have a more dynamic spring season than those boring old fall seasons.

[bradslam]

Completely agree with what Dan had to say about allowing two birds to be harvested in a day and fall hunting.  By the way, Dan, my dad was the other hunter who harvested the slam the same year you did back in '96.  It sucks to see the changes to turkey management that have occured since then.  It makes me feel old to talk about the good ol' days.  Wish we could turn back the clock.

[Hangfire]

Thanks so much for the reply. I have seen this year, so many young birds in the 6 to 8 pound size range at Thanksgiving time, I didn't see how they could get to the 13 pound size of jake's by spring season.

I love to hunt spring birds normally with a 12 ga flint that I built. If I have a tag left over I will ambush a fall bird. I have tried to save the gobblers for spring and avoid a mature hen by taking a bird of the year, thinking they had the highest winter mortality rate. I have never seen a person hunting turkeys in the fall season, in the area where I live west of Deer Park, I do know they get hunted though.

I witnested the first release of Eastern's on Spencer road in Lewis county. They seemed to do well until the series of wet springs that began in 1995 or 96. I had seen as many as four flocks from Andy's tackle shop to Ethel the same trip,at the peak of that population.

I think it was you that told me that a coyote would have a very difficult time taking a healthy adult turkey.

[BOWHUNTER45]

yeah he knows a little bit about turkeys 

[bearpaw]

Great info...

I wished they would at least limit the late fall hunts to private land only, where the problems actually occur.

[tonymiller7]

Yotes are for sure a problem in NE Washington, I dusted one with my 870 a couple yeas back that came running into my hen call.  We had been seeing yote crap all morning with feathers in it too. 

[Elkpiss]

Hey Dan, here is a pic with your Kid and I.. Jim Buck took this photo.... Tell Jr. Archie say's hey..

[BOWHUNTER45]

Hey Dan, here is a pic with your Kid and I.. Jim Buck took this photo.... Tell Jr. Archie say's hey..

Nice 

[BOWHUNTER45]

Yotes are for sure a problem in NE Washington, I dusted one with my 870 a couple yeas back that came running into my hen call.  We had been seeing yote crap all morning with feathers in it too.

I seriously can not think of one year where we have not called in a yote ...not counting the one that was stolen from us as we were calling  shoot them all 

[Wacenturion]

Hey Dan, here is a pic with your Kid and I.. Jim Buck took this photo.... Tell Jr. Archie say's hey..

Will do...I'll send the picture on to him.
Thanks

[Wacenturion]

Completely agree with what Dan had to say about allowing two birds to be harvested in a day and fall hunting.  By the way, Dan, my dad was the other hunter who harvested the slam the same year you did back in '96.  It sucks to see the changes to turkey management that have occured since then.  It makes me feel old to talk about the good ol' days.  Wish we could turn back the clock.

I remember talking with you or your Dad or both, if I remember right, at a banquet.  Hope both of you are doing well.

[Wacenturion]

Thanks so much for the reply. I have seen this year, so many young birds in the 6 to 8 pound size range at Thanksgiving time, I didn't see how they could get to the 13 pound size of jake's by spring season.

I love to hunt spring birds normally with a 12 ga flint that I built. If I have a tag left over I will ambush a fall bird. I have tried to save the gobblers for spring and avoid a mature hen by taking a bird of the year, thinking they had the highest winter mortality rate. I have never seen a person hunting turkeys in the fall season, in the area where I live west of Deer Park, I do know they get hunted though.

I witnested the first release of Eastern's on Spencer road in Lewis county. They seemed to do well until the series of wet springs that began in 1995 or 96. I had seen as many as four flocks from Andy's tackle shop to Ethel the same trip,at the peak of that population.

I think it was you that told me that a coyote would have a very difficult time taking a healthy adult turkey.

The first release of Easterns was along time ago.  I remember that there was a few folks there to witness it.  I'm sure we talked, and I probably did tell you that.

[Wacenturion]

Yotes are for sure a problem in NE Washington, I dusted one with my 870 a couple yeas back that came running into my hen call.  We had been seeing yote crap all morning with feathers in it too.

I seriously can not think of one year where we have not called in a yote ...not counting the one that was stolen from us as we were calling  shoot them all 

Have called in a few myself.  Never shot any as I had too much time invested waiting on turkeys.  Sometimes as you know they can take forever, or it least it seems that way.

Want to really have some fun...call in a cougar and two kits, at like 12 yards.  Damn they are quiet and make you have second thoughts about pretending to be a turkey meal.   

In fact once in the Blues I as calling from a ridge way above a skidder that was behind a gate down below me.  After about 40 minutes there in clear view about 350 yards below me was a big tom, or should I say a huge tom heading in my general direction.  Thus I decided to try another area and left ...lol.

[Turkeyman]

Its been sad to see what our turkey hunting has come too. We had a great thing going for awhile, until the game department got involved. I seen it coming 10 years ago. Lets give out free turkey tag, lets kill to birds in one day on the east side, lets have a grouse hunt in the fall. Great Management

[PA BEN]

Where did you come up with the name Jenny's? Never heard that one.

[BOWHUNTER45]

Pa Ben ... The young hens are called jenny's  Now for some of you who are complaining about our turkey populations you have me baffled ...I agree with some of the issues but as far as not having enough turkeys  Your nutz  We have more turkeys than ever before ...hopefully this year will be a banner year since we had such a mild winter ...Let the games begin     You can also give a thanks to Wacenturion for being one of the main reasons we have turkeys in Washington ...Hope he does not mind me saying that but I know I appreciate what he has done    I have a video somewhere where he and Bill Jordon hooked up on a Washington Merriams hunt ....Years ago ...remember that Wacenturion .....Me and the wife just filled 3 boxes of videos I collected over the years and I think I have over 60 just on turkey hunting  It stinks to move !

[bearpaw]

I live in the middle of turkey central and it's not all doom and gloom. There are birds still out there to hunt but the population I would estimate at 20% to 60% of what it used to be depending on each local area. Sadly it is the public lands that have taken the biggest hit in population reduction.

WDFW should concentrate on holding late seasons where the damage occurs on private land only. Unfortunately hunters without private access can only hunt on public ground and that can actually push more birds onto private land where the damage occurs. So WDFW kept increasing late seasons to reduce damage. Doesn't make any sense to me.

The result is that birds are harder to find for the average joe hunter. I would like to see our birds managed to maximize opportunity for hunters while using hunting as a tool to keep turkeys off private lands where damage occurs. Late seasons on private land only could address this issue by encouraging turkeys to avoid private lands where they will get hunted. 

[bearpaw]

Two more things I would like to mention are weather and predation.

Weather
WDFW is not responsible for weather. Weather is the biggest factor affecting turkey populations. We had two back to back hard winters in NE WA, this greatly reduced the turkey numbers. We found lots of turkey remains near roosting trees immediately after those winters. At the same time we had rainy June and July weather so survival rates of chicks suffered. The last couple years have been better and I do think bird numbers are starting to rebuild in some areas.

Predators
Turkeys have been here long enough now that predators have really learned how to hunt turkeys and specialized their methods. We all know that unprecedented numbers of hawks, eagles, coyotes, bobcats, weasels, and even cougars eat turkeys, but what a lot of people do not realize is how ravens impact turkeys. My guides and I have watched countless ravens hunting for hens, they fly through the forest searching for nesting hens. Once a raven locates a hen it calls others and soon you have 2 or 3 ravens swooping at the nesting hen trying to make her move off the nest. As soon as they get her to move then they eat all the eggs. We have watched this many times. If any of you have noticed broken eggs laying around the forest they likely are eggs that were eaten by ravens.

The best thing I have seen to counter this problem is logging. On most of the private lands where I hunt the landowners regularly thin the timber. This in turn allows more under brush to grow which gives turkeys more cover to hide in when they nest.

During the summer when the birds hatch out the hens take the chicks into alfalfa fields, CRP fields, or stay in brushy areas where the tall alfalfa, grass, or brush make it hard for predators to find the chicks and where insects thrive for the birds to feed on.

Hunters can take advantage of this knowledge and concentrate their hunting around farming and logging areas that are growing back with good ground cover.

If you want to help the turkeys please encourage crp, farming, and selective logging in WA. 

[BOWHUNTER45]

I guess your right Bearpaw ...maybe I should have worded that differently ....a lot of birds in the  area I hunt    A lot of factors go into how the population increases or decreases ...you pretty much named them all ...

[baldopepper]

Bearpaw you couldn't be more right on your Raven note.  I think a lot of people don't understand how hard Ravens are on all upland game birds.  I have a brother who was involved in a study of chukar nests and they found that far and away the biggest predator problem was ravens.  In some areas they virtually wiped out every nest.  This was a follow up to a study that showed the same results on pheasants. I suspect that if a similar study was done on turkeys the results might very well be the same.  Ravens are extremely smart (as birds go) and your description of them harassing hens on the nest does not surprise me at all. 
On another note, flocks in the 121 unit seem to be very healthy this winter and I'm seeing more birds by far than I did last year at this time.  If we don't get any last minute major storms it should be a good spring hunt.

[bradslam]

Ditto on the ravens.  It a bummer watching a raven make return trips to a nest and leaving with an egg in its beak every time.

[Turkeyman]

I now what Dan has done for turkeys in Washington, i was part of the eastern project. I didn't say we didn't have turkeys and its not doom and gloom, just saying it could be better. I understand that weather and predators are a big factor I've been playing this game for awhile. If this state truly cared about turkeys and managed our turkeys it could be better. We all need to pray for good weather for the nesting season and shoot all the predators we see because we wont get any help from WDFW. Will see what it looks like in 10 more years.

[JKEEN33]

I live in the middle of turkey central and it's not all doom and gloom. There are birds still out there to hunt but the population I would estimate at 20% to 60% of what it used to be depending on each local area. Sadly it is the public lands that have taken the biggest hit in population reduction.

WDFW should concentrate on holding late seasons where the damage occurs on private land only. Unfortunately hunters without private access can only hunt on public ground and that can actually push more birds onto private land where the damage occurs. So WDFW kept increasing late seasons to reduce damage. Doesn't make any sense to me.

The result is that birds are harder to find for the average joe hunter. I would like to see our birds managed to maximize opportunity for hunters while using hunting as a tool to keep turkeys off private lands where damage occurs. Late seasons on private land only could address this issue by encouraging turkeys to avoid private lands where they will get hunted. 

I have to agree with everything here. Put my foot in my mouth a few years ago disagreeing with you on the decline of birds. I was surprised at how few birds were in my areas the last few years. I talked to a lot of local farmers that said they use to have hundreds of birds on their property and now see a few now and then.

I hate to see it. It was one seasons that a new hunter that put some effort in could go home successful. I've hooked a lot of kids on hunting by calling in a gobbler for them.

[turkeydancer]

I live in the middle of turkey central and it's not all doom and gloom. There are birds still out there to hunt but the population I would estimate at 20% to 60% of what it used to be depending on each local area. Sadly it is the public lands that have taken the biggest hit in population reduction.

WDFW should concentrate on holding late seasons where the damage occurs on private land only. Unfortunately hunters without private access can only hunt on public ground and that can actually push more birds onto private land where the damage occurs. So WDFW kept increasing late seasons to reduce damage. Doesn't make any sense to me.

The result is that birds are harder to find for the average joe hunter. I would like to see our birds managed to maximize opportunity for hunters while using hunting as a tool to keep turkeys off private lands where damage occurs. Late seasons on private land only could address this issue by encouraging turkeys to avoid private lands where they will get hunted. 

I talked years ago to Mick Cope when they started increasing the fall season and made a lot of it hens only ...  what it boils down to is that he didn't want to deal with landowner complaints ... period.  Yep, good management practices.     

[bearpaw]

I just wanted to note some of our observations, nothing was directed toward anyone, just adding info to the discussion. Last summer we had a decent hatch, this winter has been pretty easy, no deep snow, season probably won't be as good as 5-10 years ago, but I think it might be better than the last 2-3 years. Fingers are crossed for a good season! 

[turkeydancer]

  Don't disagree with anything you had to say (and it doesn't affect my earning a living like it does you).

 I saw the big decline after a few years of really bad weather (25% of what it was before),  but also have seen them rebounding from those lows.  Still, I didn't have a bit of trouble filling my tags in the leaner years.  May have been a little tougher filling them, but that's what makes it more fun for me.  Don't know about anyone else, but I just have a hard time getting outsmarted by a bird with a walnut sized brain ... it made me a better hunter and caller when I had to find a (legal) way to outsmart them.

But I do have a problem with Mick and WDFW ... there job is to manage the resource even if it means they need to deal with landowner complaints such as targeting "excess" birds on private land (I don't call them "nuisances") instead of opening liberal season throughout their range (both private and public).
  
 

[PA BEN]

The numbers are on the increase. Grouse do the same thing, 9 year cycles.