The ecology of fear: Elk responses to wolves in Yellowstone are not what we thou

[AspenBud]

Not sure why you singled out outfitters and private camps. When there are fewer elk the hunting is tougher for everyone,

In some hunting circles outfitters are not viewed with kindness. I have no idea if it remains true, but a lot of private land in places like Montana got locked up at one point and made off limits to average hunters when ranchers starting selling leases to outfitters who in turn sold hunts for greatly inflated prices.

While I understand the gripe, I can't blame the ranchers, some hunters are real slobs and when outfitters can effectively be private game wardens it's a win/win.

Sometimes I think these discussions often have less to do with wolves and more to do with cash and hard feelings.

[JLS]

Not sure why you singled out outfitters and private camps. When there are fewer elk the hunting is tougher for everyone, except maybe for you and Idahohntr who both seem to claim wolves haven't affected hunting much. 

I have no idea where you derived that I am singling out anybody.  Outfitters and private camps, don't those two entities pretty much include all hunters?  What else would there be, private commuter hunters maybe?

I am largely indifferent to outfitters and have no grudge against them.  I know some that are outstanding and contribute to their local communities.  I know others that are as crooked as a snake and do nothing for the local communities.

I've never hunted with one and doubt I ever will.

Still seeing the need for passive aggressive jabs are we?

[idahohuntr]

Well bearpaw, you claim wolves haven't affected hunting much either...at least not on the website where you sell Idaho Elk hunts.   

Let me help you with the wording for your outfitter website since it is so inconsistent with your chatter on this website:

"Elk hunts offered in Idaho...there are fewer elk and the hunting is tougher for everyone." 

Let me know how sales go. 

[JLS]

Not sure why you singled out outfitters and private camps. When there are fewer elk the hunting is tougher for everyone,

In some hunting circles outfitters are not viewed with kindness. I have no idea if it remains true, but a lot of private land in places like Montana got locked up at one point and made off limits to average hunters when ranchers starting selling leases to outfitters who in turn sold hunts for greatly inflated prices.

While I understand the gripe, I can't blame the ranchers, some hunters are real slobs and when outfitters can effectively be private game wardens it's a win/win.

Sometimes I think these discussions often have less to do with wolves and more to do with cash and hard feelings.

Even as such, it's still the rancher who makes the decision and I don't fault the outfitter for offering the money.  Some ranchers will turn it down, others won't.  In the end it's usually based on core philosophy, although sometimes enough money will sway a decision.

I don't fault the ranchers either.  It's their land and their decision.

Much of the better land in Montana has been leased up for over 15-20 years now.

[bearpaw]

Well bearpaw, you claim wolves haven't affected hunting much either...at least not on the website where you sell Idaho Elk hunts.   

Let me help you with the wording for your outfitter website since it is so inconsistent with your chatter on this website:

"Elk hunts offered in Idaho...there are fewer elk and the hunting is tougher for everyone." 

Let me know how sales go. 

Actually that's exactly the position many outfitters in wolf affected areas have been put in. You said it yourself, thank you for making my point. How disgusting that you find that funny. 

[bearpaw]

Not sure why you singled out outfitters and private camps. When there are fewer elk the hunting is tougher for everyone, except maybe for you and Idahohntr who both seem to claim wolves haven't affected hunting much. 

I have no idea where you derived that I am singling out anybody.  Outfitters and private camps, don't those two entities pretty much include all hunters?  What else would there be, private commuter hunters maybe?

I am largely indifferent to outfitters and have no grudge against them.  I know some that are outstanding and contribute to their local communities.  I know others that are as crooked as a snake and do nothing for the local communities.

I've never hunted with one and doubt I ever will.

Still seeing the need for passive aggressive jabs are we?

Apparently I misunderstood your post, I thought you were making the jab.

However, you do continuously claim that hunting is just fine for you as if wolves have had no effect. That sir is patently false as can be proven by statistics that are a matter of record. I can point out numerous quotes you've made to that effect in case you can't seem to remember.

[idahohuntr]

Well bearpaw, you claim wolves haven't affected hunting much either...at least not on the website where you sell Idaho Elk hunts.   

Let me help you with the wording for your outfitter website since it is so inconsistent with your chatter on this website:

"Elk hunts offered in Idaho...there are fewer elk and the hunting is tougher for everyone." 

Let me know how sales go. 

Actually that's exactly the position many outfitters in wolf affected areas have been put in. You said it yourself, thank you for making my point. How disgusting that you find that funny. 

I was quoting what you said earlier about fewer elk and tougher hunting for everybody and laughing at how it is not at all how your outfitter website describes the hunting for the ELK HUNTS YOU SELL IN IDAHO!!!  I find it sad that you say one thing to one group of people on this website and then turn around and tell others a completely different story on a different website. 

[bearpaw]

Well bearpaw, you claim wolves haven't affected hunting much either...at least not on the website where you sell Idaho Elk hunts.   

Let me help you with the wording for your outfitter website since it is so inconsistent with your chatter on this website:

"Elk hunts offered in Idaho...there are fewer elk and the hunting is tougher for everyone." 

Let me know how sales go. 

Actually that's exactly the position many outfitters in wolf affected areas have been put in. You said it yourself, thank you for making my point. How disgusting that you find that funny. 

I was quoting what you said earlier about fewer elk and tougher hunting for everybody and laughing at how it is not at all how your outfitter website describes the hunting for the ELK HUNTS YOU SELL IN IDAHO!!!  I find it sad that you say one thing to one group of people on this website and then turn around and tell others a completely different story on a different website.

Can you actually be that challenged? Fortunately I do not have any confirmed wolf packs in my area (per IDFG) and the elk herd is stable as noted by IDFG population counts, that's the difference in Idaho areas. JEESH

As everyone knows, it's the units with lots of wolves that have been impacted, also an IDFG documented fact.

[JLS]

Not sure why you singled out outfitters and private camps. When there are fewer elk the hunting is tougher for everyone, except maybe for you and Idahohntr who both seem to claim wolves haven't affected hunting much. 

I have no idea where you derived that I am singling out anybody.  Outfitters and private camps, don't those two entities pretty much include all hunters?  What else would there be, private commuter hunters maybe?

I am largely indifferent to outfitters and have no grudge against them.  I know some that are outstanding and contribute to their local communities.  I know others that are as crooked as a snake and do nothing for the local communities.

I've never hunted with one and doubt I ever will.

Still seeing the need for passive aggressive jabs are we?

Apparently I misunderstood your post, I thought you were making the jab.

However, you do continuously claim that hunting is just fine for you as if wolves have had no effect. That sir is patently false as can be proven by statistics that are a matter of record. I can point out numerous quotes you've made to that effect in case you can't seem to remember.

You can quote me all you want.  My stance hasn't changed one bit, and my stance is based on what I have observed with my own eyes.

I am pretty well convinced at this point that you cannot even read my posts objectively, as you were able to take the statement I made and twist it into an insult. 

I'll second Idaho, you just keep telling everyone that the elk population in Montana went down the toilet and will never come back.  We all know wolves eat everything until they are wallowing without food and the whole population starves to death.  Happens all the time, right?

While everyone else is believing this I'll still be hunting elk.

[bearpaw]

Not sure why you singled out outfitters and private camps. When there are fewer elk the hunting is tougher for everyone, except maybe for you and Idahohntr who both seem to claim wolves haven't affected hunting much. 

I have no idea where you derived that I am singling out anybody.  Outfitters and private camps, don't those two entities pretty much include all hunters?  What else would there be, private commuter hunters maybe?

I am largely indifferent to outfitters and have no grudge against them.  I know some that are outstanding and contribute to their local communities.  I know others that are as crooked as a snake and do nothing for the local communities.

I've never hunted with one and doubt I ever will.

Still seeing the need for passive aggressive jabs are we?

Apparently I misunderstood your post, I thought you were making the jab.

However, you do continuously claim that hunting is just fine for you as if wolves have had no effect. That sir is patently false as can be proven by statistics that are a matter of record. I can point out numerous quotes you've made to that effect in case you can't seem to remember.

You can quote me all you want.  My stance hasn't changed one bit, and my stance is based on what I have observed with my own eyes.

I am pretty well convinced at this point that you cannot even read my posts objectively, as you were able to take the statement I made and twist it into an insult. 

I'll second Idaho, you just keep telling everyone that the elk population in Montana went down the toilet and will never come back.  We all know wolves eat everything until they are wallowing without food and the whole population starves to death.  Happens all the time, right?

While everyone else is believing this I'll still be hunting elk.

Who's twisting the facts?

Eastern Montana has excellent elk populations with little impacts by wolves. Western Montana has significantly lower elk populations since wolves and cougar over populated. It's common to see wolf advocates trying to say wolves have not affected elk hunting in Montana by combining the eastern herds together with the western herds and claiming wolves have had no impact, in this way localized impacts are hidden. The herd counts, success rates, reduced seasons, and eliminated elk seasons in western Montana prove the localized impacts. Sure the wolves can't get every elk, but they have caused significant impacts, no question about that.

http://www.ktvq.com/news/gardiner-elk-hunt-falls-victim-to-wolves/

Gardiner elk hunt falls victim to wolves

GARDINER - One of the consequences of "Living with Wolves" is the elimination of a special late season elk hunt near Gardiner that has been part of the Montana hunting scene for the past 35 years. The January hunt was firstconducted in 1976, to help manage elk migrating out of Yellowstone National Park. At that time, the park's northern herd had reached as many as 12-thousand animals.

But once wolves were reintroduced to the park, the northern herd's numbers started declining. In 2005, game managers counted 9,545 elk. Three years later that figure had dropped to 3,912 animals, and by 2009 the herd's population was down to 3,511 elk. This year, FWP's aerial surveys of the northern herd outside the park's boundaries counted only 2,236 animals.

Last week, Montana's Fish and Game Commission voted to end the late season hunt citing elk numbers that had fallen below target levels due to predation mainly from wolves, but also from grizzly bears. The Montana Elk Plan established in 2004 called for a population of between 3-thousand to 5-thousand elk in the portion of the Northern elk herd that winters in Montana.

[KFhunter]

Not sure why you singled out outfitters and private camps. When there are fewer elk the hunting is tougher for everyone, except maybe for you and Idahohntr who both seem to claim wolves haven't affected hunting much. 

I have no idea where you derived that I am singling out anybody.  Outfitters and private camps, don't those two entities pretty much include all hunters?  What else would there be, private commuter hunters maybe?

I am largely indifferent to outfitters and have no grudge against them.  I know some that are outstanding and contribute to their local communities.  I know others that are as crooked as a snake and do nothing for the local communities.

I've never hunted with one and doubt I ever will.

Still seeing the need for passive aggressive jabs are we?

Apparently I misunderstood your post, I thought you were making the jab.

However, you do continuously claim that hunting is just fine for you as if wolves have had no effect. That sir is patently false as can be proven by statistics that are a matter of record. I can point out numerous quotes you've made to that effect in case you can't seem to remember.

You can quote me all you want.  My stance hasn't changed one bit, and my stance is based on what I have observed with my own eyes.

I am pretty well convinced at this point that you cannot even read my posts objectively, as you were able to take the statement I made and twist it into an insult. 

I'll second Idaho, you just keep telling everyone that the elk population in Montana went down the toilet and will never come back.  We all know wolves eat everything until they are wallowing without food and the whole population starves to death.  Happens all the time, right?

While everyone else is believing this I'll still be hunting elk.

You might not ever be severely impacted as MT (and ID) is very proactive in wolf management.  I've got a good idea where you hunt and in that area the wolf management (I imagine) is very robust as they've been dealing with wolves dispersing from YNP for a long time. 

Eventually you'll probably have to submit for a special drawing, or more antler restrictions, but the Elk hunting may well continue for you.


I prefer to hunt in my back yard and feel WDFW has abandoned our herds here in the NE corner.  I wish WA would take care of the Elk herds here, but history shows they will not.  I'm also very concerned about our wolf plan requiring more wolves than ID or MT which have much bigger Elk herds.  In reality I don't think it matters what the wolf plan is, as ID and MT both have far exceeded their quota's for wolves and WA already has, but they won't be confirmed.  WDFW should have been on wolf sightings like stank on a wet turd, but they ran the other way.  They could have trapped and collared aggressively but they did not.  This is going to work against them as people turn away from WDFW for lack of trust. 

I applaud MT, ID and WY for their efforts, and condemn WA for their lack of.

[JLS]

Not sure why you singled out outfitters and private camps. When there are fewer elk the hunting is tougher for everyone, except maybe for you and Idahohntr who both seem to claim wolves haven't affected hunting much. 

I have no idea where you derived that I am singling out anybody.  Outfitters and private camps, don't those two entities pretty much include all hunters?  What else would there be, private commuter hunters maybe?

I am largely indifferent to outfitters and have no grudge against them.  I know some that are outstanding and contribute to their local communities.  I know others that are as crooked as a snake and do nothing for the local communities.

I've never hunted with one and doubt I ever will.

Still seeing the need for passive aggressive jabs are we?

Apparently I misunderstood your post, I thought you were making the jab.

However, you do continuously claim that hunting is just fine for you as if wolves have had no effect. That sir is patently false as can be proven by statistics that are a matter of record. I can point out numerous quotes you've made to that effect in case you can't seem to remember.

You can quote me all you want.  My stance hasn't changed one bit, and my stance is based on what I have observed with my own eyes.

I am pretty well convinced at this point that you cannot even read my posts objectively, as you were able to take the statement I made and twist it into an insult. 

I'll second Idaho, you just keep telling everyone that the elk population in Montana went down the toilet and will never come back.  We all know wolves eat everything until they are wallowing without food and the whole population starves to death.  Happens all the time, right?

While everyone else is believing this I'll still be hunting elk.

Who's twisting the facts?

Eastern Montana has excellent elk populations with little impacts by wolves. Western Montana has significantly lower elk populations since wolves and cougar over populated. It's common to see wolf advocates trying to say wolves have not affected elk hunting in Montana by combining the eastern herds together with the western herds and claiming wolves have had no impact, in this way localized impacts are hidden. The herd counts, success rates, reduced seasons, and eliminated elk seasons in western Montana prove the localized impacts. Sure the wolves can't get every elk, but they have caused significant impacts, no question about that.

http://www.ktvq.com/news/gardiner-elk-hunt-falls-victim-to-wolves/

Gardiner elk hunt falls victim to wolves

GARDINER - One of the consequences of "Living with Wolves" is the elimination of a special late season elk hunt near Gardiner that has been part of the Montana hunting scene for the past 35 years. The January hunt was firstconducted in 1976, to help manage elk migrating out of Yellowstone National Park. At that time, the park's northern herd had reached as many as 12-thousand animals.

But once wolves were reintroduced to the park, the northern herd's numbers started declining. In 2005, game managers counted 9,545 elk. Three years later that figure had dropped to 3,912 animals, and by 2009 the herd's population was down to 3,511 elk. This year, FWP's aerial surveys of the northern herd outside the park's boundaries counted only 2,236 animals.

Last week, Montana's Fish and Game Commission voted to end the late season hunt citing elk numbers that had fallen below target levels due to predation mainly from wolves, but also from grizzly bears. The Montana Elk Plan established in 2004 called for a population of between 3-thousand to 5-thousand elk in the portion of the Northern elk herd that winters in Montana.

I'm not twisting anything.

Read up on HB 42 and Debbie Barrett, and you might gain a better understanding of elk numbers in MT.  Thousands of elk died in the Missouri Breaks because numbers were "over objective".  I've never heard you complain about that.  Many elk died in MT because of very aggressive antlerless hunts that were a result of HB 42, including the Madison Valley, Big Hole, and Bitterroot.

What do I know though?  I'm so oblivious that I've been fooling myself over the last 15 years, thinking that elk hunting was still good.  I must not have killed the elk that I did, because they couldn't have been there since you've shown me the "statistics".  Wow, I now be edumacated.

Edit:  I will reassert my opinion that you cannot take anything I type objectively.  Note your statement about me twisting facts and you reference the Gardiner late hunt.  I did not even state any facts, only observations I've made.  Apparently, that is twisting the facts

[JLS]

You might not ever be severely impacted as MT (and ID) is very proactive in wolf management.  I've got a good idea where you hunt and in that area the wolf management (I imagine) is very robust as they've been dealing with wolves dispersing from YNP for a long time. 

Montana was actually quite conservative in their first years of wolf hunting, and if you'll remember their commission made a knee jerk reaction to close a hunt district after a well known collared wolf was shot.

Eventually you'll probably have to submit for a special drawing, or more antler restrictions, but the Elk hunting may well continue for you.

I highly doubt the areas I hunt will ever become a special drawing or an antler restriction.

I prefer to hunt in my back yard and feel WDFW has abandoned our herds here in the NE corner. 

Hard to call it abandoned when it was an any elk hunt 20 years ago, wouldn't you say?

I wish WA would take care of the Elk herds here, but history shows they will not.  I'm also very concerned about our wolf plan requiring more wolves than ID or MT which have much bigger Elk herds.  In reality I don't think it matters what the wolf plan is, as ID and MT both have far exceeded their quota's for wolves and WA already has, but they won't be confirmed.  WDFW should have been on wolf sightings like stank on a wet turd, but they ran the other way.  They could have trapped and collared aggressively but they did not.  This is going to work against them as people turn away from WDFW for lack of trust. 

I applaud MT, ID and WY for their efforts, and condemn WA for their lack of.

Obviously none of you guys really read what I type, or you would remember that I have stated numerous times that I wrote letters to the commission opposing Washington's wolf plan for various reasons, one of them being I felt they were being much too conservative.
[/quote]

[KFhunter]

any elk was a big part of the problem,  should have been antlered only 20 years ago.

The panhandle, NE/WA Elk are harder to hunt so they left it any Elk otc tags.  The habitat will support a much bigger herd size than currently.

predators, OTC any elk tags have kept them suppressed prior to wolves.  Now add wolves what do we see?

Same with moose.  Think our OIL tag numbers are going to increase anytime soon? 

[sagewalker]

Good info