Houndhunters Apply Now: Cougar Management Removal Permit Program

[bearpaw]

Cougar Management Removal Permit Program
http://wdfw.wa.gov/licensing/cougar_mgmt_removal/

2014 Cougar Management Removals

If warranted by confirmed human-cougar safety incident, or confirmed livestock or pet depredation, a cougar management removal(s) will be conducted annually between February 15th and March 31st in selected areas of game management units designated by the director.

Permit issuance procedure
•To participate in a public safety cougar removal, individuals must request that his/her name be placed on a list of available participants (participant list) by faxing their request to (360)902-2162 Attention - Public Safety Cougar Removal, or registering on the Departments website. The request must include the individual's WILDID and phone number. An individual's request to be placed on a participant list for a removal period must be submitted on the departments website or received at the department's Olympia office no later than February 7 during the year the removal period begins.  below.

◦Click here to check to see if your WILD ID is currently on the participant list http://wdfw.wa.gov/licensing/cougar_mgmt_removal/current_participants.pdf

◦Click here to add your WILD ID to the participant list electronically http://wdfw.wa.gov/licensing/cougar_mgmt_removal/wild_id_submit.html 

◦Click here to download a form you may fax to us to request to be added to the participant list http://wdfw.wa.gov/licensing/cougar_mgmt_removal/2014_cougar_removal_application.pdf

•To be eligible for a cougar management removal permit (permit), the participant must be a Washington resident dog hunter (i.e., owns and hunts with dogs that are capable of detecting, tracking and treeing a cougar) who possesses a valid big game license with cougar as a species option. The permit holder must use dogs while participating in a cougar management removal.
•Individuals eligible for participation in a cougar management removal will be randomly selected from the participant list.
•This is a public safety cougar removal administrated by a WDFW designated coordinator. Individuals on the participant list will be contacted on an as-needed basis to conduct removals in portions of GMUs. Not all individuals on the participant list will be contacted in a given year.

Season, Quotas, and Participation
•Cougar management removal(s) will be conducted between Feb 15 and March 31, 2014 in selected areas of game management units designated by the director to address a confirmed human-cougar safety incident, or confirmed livestock or pet depredation.
•Public safety cougar removals will be based on a harvest guideline system established in WAC 232-28-297, where permit holders may hunt cougar until the hunt area harvest guideline has been met and the director has closed the cougar late hunting season or March 31, whichever is first.
•It is each cougar hunter's responsibility to verify if the cougar hunting season is open or closed in hunt areas with a harvest guideline.  Cougar hunters can verify if the season is open or closed by calling the toll free cougar hunting hotline (1-866-364-4868) or visiting this website at http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/cougar/. The hotline and website will be updated weekly beginning January 1, 2014.
•No more than four total individuals may participate per public safety cougar removal, including the permit holder(s). Only the permit holder, whose name appears on the permit, may take a cougar.

Hunt Areas
•2014 cougar management removals will occur in a portion of the following Game Management Units (GMUs). Hunting cougar with the aid of dogs outside of the removal area is unlawful.

Game Management Unit  Cougar Permit Hunters
111                                                2
113                                                2
121                                                2
224                                                2
231                                                3
247                                                4
251                                                2
Total                                            17

General requirements
•A valid big game hunting license which includes cougar as a species option is required to hunt cougar.
•It is unlawful to kill or possess spotted cougar kittens or adult cougars accompanied by spotted kittens. Individuals selected for a public safety cougar removal permit may take one cougar per permit.
•Any person who takes a cougar must notify the department within twenty-four hours of kill (excluding legal state holidays) and provide the hunter's name, date and location of kill, and sex of animal. The raw pelt of a cougar must be sealed by an authorized department employee within seventy-two hours of the notification of kill. Any person who takes a cougar must present the cougar skull, in such a manner that teeth and biological samples can be extracted, to an authorized department employee at the time of sealing.

For more information contact: Wildlife Program – Wildlife Conflict Section, 600 Capitol Way North, Olympia, WA 98501, or (360) 902-2515, or by e-mailing at wildthing@dfw.wa.gov

[bearpaw]

Thanks to WDFW for bringing this deadline to our attention so that hound hunters can sign up. 

[CementFinisher]

thanks for posting dale

[MooseZ25]

Thanks for posting Dale.  I wish they would increase the number of permits in each units and add some units, but it is a start anyways....

[LRP]

Permit numbers and GMU's are based on the number of incidents of depredation received by dfw.  Also please remember only a portion of a GMU will be open for the permit.  Those area's surround the reported depredation area.  They may be small area's.  With the short supply of snow, it might be difficult to find tracks.  If selected it might be useful to check the incident reports on the web page for locations of problem cats.  Or check with the local enforcement officer as he or she is the one that responded to the incident. 

[villageidiot]

The rancher that just lost a calf to a cougar still has 3 cougars living in his back yard.  Two cougars were killed on his place on sunday and another was killed from that group a week ago.  Game agent said he's not seen so many cougars in the Methow Valley since they outlawed hound hunting the first time about 3 yrs after it was shut down and the population exploded, just like it's doing now.  Funny thing is I notice this unit which is 242 is not on the list WDFW has to remove more cougars.  Appears the Bio's in charge are grosley uninformed.

[jackmaster]

why isnt there any westside permits, they could give out 10 just for the mashel unit

[mulehunter]

The rancher that just lost a calf to a cougar still has 3 cougars living in his back yard.  Two cougars were killed on his place on sunday and another was killed from that group a week ago.  Game agent said he's not seen so many cougars in the Methow Valley since they outlawed hound hunting the first time about 3 yrs after it was shut down and the population exploded, just like it's doing now.  Funny thing is I notice this unit which is 242 is not on the list WDFW has to remove more cougars.  Appears the Bio's in charge are grosley uninformed.

They possible add 242 after Feb 15.     I hope so..

More Cougar Sightings, Attacks
Cougar hunting permits to be issued
by Rose Weagant
photophoto by Cal Tresser
A handful of cougar sightings in local residential areas have prompted the Department of Fish and Wildlife to seek new hunting permits. Local hunters killed two cougars within hours on Sunday.
Earlier in December three cougars were sighted in the Alder Creek area near the Twisp-Carlton road. One juvenile male cougar was exterminated after killing a homeowner’s dog. Cal Tresser believes that the two found in the Lookout Mountain area over the weekend were the other two spotted near Alder Creek.
Sightings have also been reported near Walters Rd., Heckendorn area, and the Crown S Ranch. On February 3 a cougar attacked ducks at Crown S before evading Fish and Wildlife officer Cal Tresser. Wednesday evening the cougar was sighted crossing the road toward Crown S Ranch again, though no further attacks have been reported at Crown S to date.
On Sunday, a licensed hunter on Lookout Mountain Road shot a cougar. Several hours later, a livestock owner went to check on his cattle and found that a calf had been attacked. He called Tresser who arrived and inspected the calf. “The snow had melted beneath the calf, the kill was so fresh,” said Tresser. “The area was covered in fresh cougar tracks.”
After confirming that a cougar killed the calf, hounds were released and the cougar was treed and killed within 200 yards of the dead calf.
"I have never seen this many removals," said Fish and Wildlife officer Jason Day. Day stated that since December there have been 6 cat removals in the Methow Valley and one in the Okanogan Valley. However, new permits will be made available in the next few weeks.
In light of the most recent cougar activity, the Department of Fish and Wildlife will issue public safety cougar removal permits to safely remove the cougars from specific residential areas. These permits will allow the use of hounds for the purpose of hunting cougars—a practice made illegal after Initiative 655 passed and banned hounds for cougar hunting.
These new permits will be allowed for use between February 15 until the end of March and specifically target the three cougars which have been sighted in residential areas but have not yet been removed/eliminated.  "The public safety cougar removal permits are very site specific," said Officer Day. "We aren’t wanting to harvest all of the cougars in the area. Our goal is to keep humans and their pets and livestock safe."
2/10/2014

[boneaddict]

They'll let hound guys, or more appropriately one hound guy go after the cat that's living in downtown Winthrop.   And one living.......  but not any others.   Both are probably immature, displaced males about 80 pounds a piece.   Neither are probably killing deer but are living off of housepets and newborn calves and soon foals.     Its a great cookie for us hunters to get excited about.

[Machias]

I got drawn for these permits twice, all excited until I got to go look at my area.  Nearly impossible to turn a dog loose, small little chunks of private land and you had to get permission from each and everyone of them.  They used to be a waste of time.  Hopefully they have changed the areas some, otherwise they are nothing to get excited about.

[huntnphool]

Well it sure didn't take long to close it.

[MooseZ25]

Well it is true.  Two of my buddies got called today to hunt the Huckleberry unit with dogs.  Waiting for paperwork then hunting Saturday.  I can't believe its gonna happen.......

[mulehunter]

   Go get them! 

[pd]

BearPaw, thank you for posting this.  I hear a bit of griping from the masses about the areas selected and the number of permits, but I think this is a great move on the part of the department to deal with this problem.  A series of successful hound hunts might well lead to relaxed restrictions statewide (......here's hoping, anyway).

[bearbaito6]

Unless they have changed the way the permit areas are, These permits are to make the public think they are doing  something about the problem. And make the hound guys think they are getting something. In years past these hunts were a joke. No where to run dogs.

[MooseZ25]

The rules are just like the last pilot study.  Only three handlers and the permit holder.  They have the entire unit 121 to hunt.  Only two permits is the only negative thing I cold see.  Maybe timing would of been nice to hunt from December till March, but this is defiantly a start.  I will keep everyone posted.

[bearpaw]

I'm really not sure if this program has been continuous or if it has been revitalized. However, it will remove a few cougars from areas where there are problems, the hound hunter gets to run cats with his dogs to keep them trained, and the hound hunter gets to keep the cougar. I think it's far better than nothing and perhaps it can be increased over time as more problems occur.

Good luck Moose. 

[mulehunter]

My friend got called yesterday. 

  

 

[jackmaster]

I'm really not sure if this program has been continuous or if it has been revitalized. However, it will remove a few cougars from areas where there are problems, the hound hunter gets to run cats with his dogs to keep them trained, and the hound hunter gets to keep the cougar. I think it's far better than nothing and perhaps it can be increased over time as more problems occur.

Good luck Moose. 

will you get to get in on any of these hunts bearpaw? do you forsee any permits being given out for the westside, there are a couple units over here on the westside that are overrun with cats, bobs and cougars, are there any plans by the way to reduce the number of bobcats in this state? they kill alot of fawns every spring and there really isnt a sure fire method of killing them without the aid of dogs or trapping, sure there are a few caught in live traps but no where near as successful as leg holds or hounds

[bearpaw]

I'm really not sure if this program has been continuous or if it has been revitalized. However, it will remove a few cougars from areas where there are problems, the hound hunter gets to run cats with his dogs to keep them trained, and the hound hunter gets to keep the cougar. I think it's far better than nothing and perhaps it can be increased over time as more problems occur.

Good luck Moose. 

will you get to get in on any of these hunts bearpaw? do you forsee any permits being given out for the westside, there are a couple units over here on the westside that are overrun with cats, bobs and cougars, are there any plans by the way to reduce the number of bobcats in this state? they kill alot of fawns every spring and there really isnt a sure fire method of killing them without the aid of dogs or trapping, sure there are a few caught in live traps but no where near as successful as leg holds or hounds

So far I have not been contacted about a permit, they say they randomly choose, not sure how that is done. Yes I would love to go cougar hunting in WA, but my dogs have had a fair share of hunting this year in Idaho so it's not critical that my dogs get to hunt in WA this year. Currently with high fur prices bobcats are being harvested fairly heavily. Live traps are pretty effective for certain species such as bobcat. Until fur prices drop I think bobcats will continue to be harvested heavily. Honestly, it seems to be WDFW policy to not manage predators any more than absolutely necessary. Hopefully that changes but don't hold your breath.

A local warden asked my son about doing damage complaints again, we used to do a lot of damage complaints for WDFW. He told the warden to get us a season in WA so we could keep our dogs trained in WA and we would consider doing complaints again. Local hound doggers have aided the WDFW in taking care of problem cats across this state, it does not seem that they have received much consideration for their efforts.

[bearpaw]

My friend got called yesterday. 

  

 

Hope you get to go with him. 

[jackmaster]

well i guess i will have to buy a couple live traps, or build a few, sucks cause i have a couple garbage cans full of leg holds and conibers  oh well, such as life!!! atleast this little hound program is a start in the right direction, i would think for the guys that get to hunt, i would be out ahead of time knockn on doors for property to run my hounds across, people may not want you to hunt deer or elk on their places but i am sure they will be more than happy to let you all kill cougars that eat their deer and elk or worse their pets  good luck fellas, best part is we will get to see alot more cat pics on here hopefully 

[mulehunter]

My friend got called yesterday. 

  

 

Hope you get to go with him. 

He is a houndman and own 6 dogs and he have family to invite so I won't go.   I am happy for him.     

[MtnMuley]

I realize that this is closed now and I don't mean to bitch, but news of this gets posted on here after 7pm on the 6th, and the deadline to get submitted is by the 7th?  WTF? When did the officially begin accepting apps?  You think you would have gotten at least an email if you were on the lists before.   Anyhow, several I know had no clue.  Glad they at least bucked up and did this and a dead cat is a dead cat, but I'm still confused.

[bearpaw]

I realize that this is closed now and I don't mean to bitch, but news of this gets posted on here after 7pm on the 6th, and the deadline to get submitted is by the 7th?  WTF? When did the officially begin accepting apps?  You think you would have gotten at least an email if you were on the lists before.   Anyhow, several I know had no clue.  Glad they at least bucked up and did this and a dead cat is a dead cat, but I'm still confused.

Actually WDFW had it posted on their website as they do with most info, but nobody here on the forum knew about it. I was notified that it was on the WDFW website and that we might want to post it on here. I am glad they notified us and I did get it up as soon as I could. Sorry for not knowing and for not getting it up sooner.

[mulehunter]

I realize that this is closed now and I don't mean to bitch, but news of this gets posted on here after 7pm on the 6th, and the deadline to get submitted is by the 7th?  WTF? When did the officially begin accepting apps?  You think you would have gotten at least an email if you were on the lists before.   Anyhow, several I know had no clue.  Glad they at least bucked up and did this and a dead cat is a dead cat, but I'm still confused.

  I didnt know that until a friend email me from HW, it was very very Nice of him for letting me know and I was like oh Chit and I only have few hours left and I tried to text some houndmen and was in middle of errands with Drs  and forget to text more friends who has dogs. I am sorry if I didnt spread out loud enough.   I counted applied was almost 735 people filled out one day.  Thats so fast.
Next time.      

[MooseZ25]

The way I understood it if you had a pilot study permit in the past you automatically were in the drawing.  I hope that helps with some of the frustration.  My wild ID was on the list when I checked so I did not have to apply.  Still short notice. 

[huntnphool]

I realize that this is closed now and I don't mean to bitch, but news of this gets posted on here after 7pm on the 6th, and the deadline to get submitted is by the 7th?  WTF? When did the officially begin accepting apps?  You think you would have gotten at least an email if you were on the lists before.   Anyhow, several I know had no clue.  Glad they at least bucked up and did this and a dead cat is a dead cat, but I'm still confused.

Funny how the important things, like clam digging, status reviews on killer whales and spotted owls are constantly going out in emails from WDFW Public Affairs in their "WDFW News Release", yet this, "coincidently" was hidden on their website three pages deep, and was never mentioned.

After Dale posted this on here

nobody here on the forum knew about it. I was notified that it was on the WDFW website and that we might want to post it on here. I am glad they notified us

 I went to the website and looked for the whole article. Knowing it was there somewhere, it still took several minutes of digging to find it.

 I am greatful that WDFW puts out their "News Release" but come on, is this really not news worthy enough?

 My guess is they purposely hid it there and when it got down to the application deadline they realized very few actually saw it, and that a chit storm was going to erupt once the deadline passed and nobody knew about it. So a little bird told Dale right before the deadline, knowing he would share it on his forum, thus letting them off the hook and allowing someone to say

Actually WDFW had it on their website as they do with most info

 

[jackmaster]

I realize that this is closed now and I don't mean to bitch, but news of this gets posted on here after 7pm on the 6th, and the deadline to get submitted is by the 7th?  WTF? When did the officially begin accepting apps?  You think you would have gotten at least an email if you were on the lists before.   Anyhow, several I know had no clue.  Glad they at least bucked up and did this and a dead cat is a dead cat, but I'm still confused.

Funny how the important things, like clam digging, status reviews on killer whales and spotted owls are constantly going out in emails from WDFW Public Affairs in their "WDFW News Release", yet this, "coincidently" was hidden on their website three pages deep, and was never mentioned.

After Dale posted this on here

nobody here on the forum knew about it. I was notified that it was on the WDFW website and that we might want to post it on here. I am glad they notified us

 I went to the website and looked for the whole article. Knowing it was there somewhere, it still took several minutes of digging to find it.

 I am greatful that WDFW puts out their "News Release" but come on, is this really not news worthy enough?

 My guess is they purposely hid it there and when it got down to the application deadline they realized very few actually saw it, and that a chit storm was going to erupt once the deadline passed and nobody knew about it. So a little bird told Dale right before the deadline, knowing he would share it on his forum, thus letting them off the hook and allowing someone to say

Actually WDFW had it on their website as they do with most info

 

what huntnphool said 

[MtnMuley]

I realize that this is closed now and I don't mean to bitch, but news of this gets posted on here after 7pm on the 6th, and the deadline to get submitted is by the 7th?  WTF? When did the officially begin accepting apps?  You think you would have gotten at least an email if you were on the lists before.   Anyhow, several I know had no clue.  Glad they at least bucked up and did this and a dead cat is a dead cat, but I'm still confused.

Actually WDFW had it posted on their website as they do with most info, but nobody here on the forum knew about it. I was notified that it was on the WDFW website and that we might want to post it on here. I am glad they notified us and I did get it up as soon as I could. Sorry for not knowing and for not getting it up sooner.

Not your fault at all Dale, nor did I mean to come off that way.  I appreciate you posting as soon as you found out.  My beef is with the WDFW did this.  I was also a part in the pilot program and was fortunate to draw several times.  My name/Wild ID is also on the list.  Maybe they did put me in the drawing without me knowing, but if they did, you surely would have figured they would have let you know through email or by phone.   I just hope several hounders were actually drawn and they take care of this over population problem.  I will bitch to the extreme if I ever find out that any "hugger" was drawn to take a slot away from somebody deserving!

[MtnMuley]

I realize that this is closed now and I don't mean to bitch, but news of this gets posted on here after 7pm on the 6th, and the deadline to get submitted is by the 7th?  WTF? When did the officially begin accepting apps?  You think you would have gotten at least an email if you were on the lists before.   Anyhow, several I know had no clue.  Glad they at least bucked up and did this and a dead cat is a dead cat, but I'm still confused.

Funny how the important things, like clam digging, status reviews on killer whales and spotted owls are constantly going out in emails from WDFW Public Affairs in their "WDFW News Release", yet this, "coincidently" was hidden on their website three pages deep, and was never mentioned.

After Dale posted this on here

nobody here on the forum knew about it. I was notified that it was on the WDFW website and that we might want to post it on here. I am glad they notified us

 I went to the website and looked for the whole article. Knowing it was there somewhere, it still took several minutes of digging to find it.

 I am greatful that WDFW puts out their "News Release" but come on, is this really not news worthy enough?

 My guess is they purposely hid it there and when it got down to the application deadline they realized very few actually saw it, and that a chit storm was going to erupt once the deadline passed and nobody knew about it. So a little bird told Dale right before the deadline, knowing he would share it on his forum, thus letting them off the hook and allowing someone to say

Actually WDFW had it on their website as they do with most info

 

what huntnphool said 

  I would agree fully. If WDFW as a whole were an aminal, they'd be a boar with tits crossed with a weasel.

[WAcoyotehunter]

only hound owners are supposed to be on the list?  It says

(i) "Dog hunter" means a person that owns and hunts with dogs that are capable of detecting, tracking and treeing a cougar.

then goes on to say

(b) To be eligible for a public safety cougar removal permit (permit), the participant must be a Washington resident dog hunter who, at the time of application for a permit, possesses a valid big game license with cougar as a species option. The permit holder must use dogs while participating in a cougar management removal.

I'm sure there will be another group of guys over here looking for hound hunters to take them out.... 

[huntnphool]

I realize that this is closed now and I don't mean to bitch, but news of this gets posted on here after 7pm on the 6th, and the deadline to get submitted is by the 7th?  WTF? When did the officially begin accepting apps?  You think you would have gotten at least an email if you were on the lists before.   Anyhow, several I know had no clue.  Glad they at least bucked up and did this and a dead cat is a dead cat, but I'm still confused.

Actually WDFW had it posted on their website as they do with most info, but nobody here on the forum knew about it. I was notified that it was on the WDFW website and that we might want to post it on here. I am glad they notified us and I did get it up as soon as I could. Sorry for not knowing and for not getting it up sooner.

Not your fault at all Dale, nor did I mean to come off that way.  I appreciate you posting as soon as you found out.  My beef is with the WDFW did this.  I was also a part in the pilot program and was fortunate to draw several times.  My name/Wild ID is also on the list.  Maybe they did put me in the drawing without me knowing, but if they did, you surely would have figured they would have let you know through email or by phone.   I just hope several hounders were actually drawn and they take care of this over population problem.  I will bitch to the extreme if I ever find out that any "hugger" was drawn to take a slot away from somebody deserving!

So without contacting you how do they know

1.) That you, or anyone previously enrolled, still have hounds if they did not contact you?

2.) That you, or anyone previously enrolled, have the time/schedule/desire to participate in this new program, if they did not contact you?

3.) That you, or anyone previously enrolled, still have a valid tag in your wallet, if they did not contact you?

 These are all requirements of the application process. How can they simply state that "if you had a pilot study permit in the past you automatically were in the drawing" without confirming all of these requirements first?

 I know a couple guys that were in the previous pilot program that no longer have hounds, do they know that?

[MtnMuley]

All valid questions, phool.  Seems to be a lot in the "gray" with this issue as with most WDFW issues. 

[huntnphool]

All valid questions, phool.  Seems to be a lot in the "gray" with this issue as with most WDFW issues.

And to think there are those that actually put faith in WDFW running any kind of controlled wolf hunt/season/pilot program! LMAO

[MtnMuley]

All valid questions, phool.  Seems to be a lot in the "gray" with this issue as with most WDFW issues.

And to think there are those that actually put faith in WDFW running any kind of controlled wolf hunt/season/pilot program! LMAO

  True!  I feel deeply sorry for every WDFW enforcement officer that has to constantly "try " to enforce many of these thoughtless new rule changes and pilot programs that "upper management" decides on, and repeatedly hear the criticism from the public as they're always the easy targets to point the finger at.   

[huntnphool]

All valid questions, phool.  Seems to be a lot in the "gray" with this issue as with most WDFW issues.

And to think there are those that actually put faith in WDFW running any kind of controlled wolf hunt/season/pilot program! LMAO

  True!  I feel deeply sorry for every WDFW enforcement officer that has to constantly "try " to enforce many of these thoughtless new rule changes and pilot programs that "upper management" decides on, and repeatedly hear the criticism from the public as they're always the easy targets to point the finger at.   

Spot on right there!

[mulehunter]

TWISP — The state Department of Fish and Wildlife has issued five special permits in the Methow Valley allowing hunters to use dogs to track and kill cougars in response to numerous problems this winter.

Wildlife officer Cal Treser said the special permits are the result of many sightings and incidents in which cougars have killed livestock and pets in the Twisp and Winthrop areas. They are called public safety cougar removal permits, and they’re issued when areas experience numerous complaints. Hunters with hounds are drawn by permits and allowed to hunt in specific areas.

http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2014/feb/20/state-lets-hunters-call-in-dogs/

 

[MtnMuley]

I saw that yesterday, mule.  I was wondering how they were going to do the  "draw" for those with hounds.......

[cougarbart]

they used the old pilot program list! after drawing the names they made a call to the person, Hell I bet phone numbers where not updated so if you changed phone numbers in the last two years you might of been drawn but couldn't be reached!

[mulehunter]

I saw that yesterday, mule.  I was wondering how they were going to do the  "draw" for those with hounds.......

Ya I know,  I know that two guys got draw and both are strong houndmen and they are on way up this weekend.  It's better than nothing.  Hopefully it change to better system soon. I am looking forward to hear from them soon.

[backcountry55]

Tell them to save there gas trust me!!

[MtnMuley]

Tell them to save there gas trust me!!

I have a feeling Scott won't be in charge of these depredation tags.

[cougarbart]

I heard they get to hunt the whole unit on the tags up by twisp!

[Mic Obrien]

The cougar removal permits were reinstalled so quickly in response to the house bill introduced to reinstate the pilot program. Right now some in DFW are not supporting the house bill so they brought this program back to keep the house bill stalled.

[plottwalker]

any one do good on these permits?