Free: Contests & Raffles.
Agreed with barnes...The state really messed this up...just another example of how much of a joke our "wild life protectors" are....Sighn ucwardens petition an lets get some folks behind the wheel that wana manage ALL wildlife...including elk & deer
It was nice to meet some of you guys last night. I was way impressed with the attendance.1 thing that I have been thinking about. Which if I can find the info in the Longview daily news. Is that Jonker said in 2013 they finally decided it was ok to eat elk with hoof rot. But it seems to me like they had an article in the paper in 2012 that said they wouldnt recomend it not knowing the cause. Then a month later said its ok to eat. If I'm right its contradictory to their statement last night.I think I have 2 sets of antlers in my shop that came from bulls with hoof rot. They are both very porous and deformed. Have seen several others.This could be a side effect of hoof rot, or also could very well be a symptom of calcium/phosophorus ratios along with levels of protein in feed.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22071000They also said they tagged an elk that had hoof rot and tracked it for 3 years. But didnt comment on any changes to the affecteed hoof or hoofs and condition of the elk during that time. I would be curious to hear about that.It also seems to me like they couldnt see the forest through the trees when it comes to herbicides.Maybe its just my perception. But they were keying on the bacteria as being the cause of the hoof rot. It was pointed out by the audience from MSDS sheets that the herbicides cause several of the symptoms these animals have. Jonker also stated that our elk are low in copper and selenium. My concern would be, is the herbicide killing the browse that contains those minerals. Trace minerals are present in the soil, and are present in plants at levels that reflect relative levels in the soil. If the elk were that nutritionally stressed across the board, they wouldn't be at the population levels they are at. Elk are going to go SOMEWHERE to get the food they need, and if it's not available they die.Thus depriving them of the nutrients they need to fight off infections from the bacteria? If they arent getting the nutrients they need to stay healthy they are being stressed. We all know that stress causes health problems. Add in the stress of being hunted from Sept. to Feb. and their immune system has to be compromised. Kind of bouncing around here, but to me the herbicides seem to be a double whammy for the elk.(and deer) From ingestion of the herbicide. and possibly killing the exact browse they need for a healthy diet.Playing devil's advocate here, why is this then localized to SW Washington and is not being seen in Oregon? If the herbicides are the root cause then it would be present in all of the coastal range of Oregon also, right? Also, your perception of stress on an immune system for elk is taken from a human perspective. Being hunted every day by something is natural for elk. If they have food, water, and are not in the process of being eaten then they aren't going to be "stressed" per se like humans would. I would be very careful using the length of hunting season in this argument. Not only is it irrelevant, but it will come back to bite you down the road when used by anti hunters.. Herbicides would definitely reduce available feed sources. Elk are primarily grazers, but will key in on browse species during certain times of the year. Browse species are often sources of high quality protein.One more thing I thought was very significant was that thye said that eradication of the affected animals hasnt been ruled out! And they dont know what process they would use if it comes to that.Barnes told a few of us last night that he was told this was what they plan to do. But WDFW would not announce it until after permit apps. are in! Should be a real eye opener on how our WDFW works if this comes to fruition.Would like to write more. But gotta get to work.
Quote from: HntnFsh on March 28, 2014, 06:26:16 AMFinally get a chance to reply to JLS It was nice to meet some of you guys last night. I was way impressed with the attendance.1 thing that I have been thinking about. Which if I can find the info in the Longview daily news. Is that Jonker said in 2013 they finally decided it was ok to eat elk with hoof rot. But it seems to me like they had an article in the paper in 2012 that said they wouldnt recomend it not knowing the cause. Then a month later said its ok to eat. If I'm right its contradictory to their statement last night.I think I have 2 sets of antlers in my shop that came from bulls with hoof rot. They are both very porous and deformed. Have seen several others.This could be a side effect of hoof rot, or also could very well be a symptom of calcium/phosophorus ratios along with levels of protein in feed.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22071000Most if not all of the elk that I have seen with deformed,Porus,and unshed horns of thetype I'm talking about had hoof rot. So I think there is a connection.They also said they tagged an elk that had hoof rot and tracked it for 3 years. But didnt comment on any changes to the affecteed hoof or hoofs and condition of the elk during that time. I would be curious to hear about that.It also seems to me like they couldnt see the forest through the trees when it comes to herbicides.Maybe its just my perception. But they were keying on the bacteria as being the cause of the hoof rot. It was pointed out by the audience from MSDS sheets that the herbicides cause several of the symptoms these animals have. Jonker also stated that our elk are low in copper and selenium. My concern would be, is the herbicide killing the browse that contains those minerals. Trace minerals are present in the soil, and are present in plants at levels that reflect relative levels in the soil. If the elk were that nutritionally stressed across the board, they wouldn't be at the population levels they are at. Elk are going to go SOMEWHERE to get the food they need, and if it's not available they die.WDFW are the ones that said they are low in copper and selenium. Just because they are low in a mineral doesnt mean they are going to die!. But it could mean their immune system is compromised. So yes, I think they could be nutritionally compromized and still be at the population levels they are at. But,since you mention it. Another widely talked about point at the meeting was that people havent seen near the number of elk in the past year that they previously have. The groups of people I have been around have witnessed the same thing. As far as going to where the food they need is. Maybe they will go there if they have access to it. Or maybe they will browse on less than ideal plants because that is what is left. So they are getting some nutrition. But maybe not enough or the right kinds.Maybe its just been enough to keep them alive. Or maybe its starting to really take a toll and they are dying off from the long term effects. Thus depriving them of the nutrients they need to fight off infections from the bacteria? If they arent getting the nutrients they need to stay healthy they are being stressed. We all know that stress causes health problems. Add in the stress of being hunted from Sept. to Feb. and their immune system has to be compromised. Kind of bouncing around here, but to me the herbicides seem to be a double whammy for the elk.(and deer) From ingestion of the herbicide. and possibly killing the exact browse they need for a healthy diet.Playing devil's advocate here, why is this then localized to SW Washington and is not being seen in Oregon? If the herbicides are the root cause then it would be present in all of the coastal range of Oregon also, right? Also, your perception of stress on an immune system for elk is taken from a human perspective. Being hunted every day by something is natural for elk.The Washington-Oregon comaprison was also addressed. I believe they said that Oregon hasnt been using the same herbicides, and not for as long a duration. But could be mistaken on that. Also, being hunted by an occasional,bear,cougar,or coyote, and I highly doubt on a daily basis. At least I havent seen it in 45 years of observing them. Is a lot different than being hunted by humans from daylight or before, till after dark. Everyday for a minimum of 5 months. Chased for miles on end from one field, clearcut, or timber patch to another till their tongues are hanging out and sweat is rolling off them all day long. With no real chance of rest. Do you really think thats a stress they are used to. I highly doubt it. And there is no way its natural. If they have food, water, and are not in the process of being eaten then they aren't going to be "stressed" per se like humans would. I would be very careful using the length of hunting season in this argument. Not only is it irrelevant, but it will come back to bite you down the road when used by anti hunters.. See my previous comments about the stress. Tie in the fatigue from being hunted for as long as they are and the way they are. Its gotta take its toll. So it is extremely relevent. As far as the antis go. Do you really not believe they already have all this info. Talking about it here isnt going to change that. The length of the season was another hot topic at the meeting,and I hear it discussed a lot within the hunting community. So I guess the hunters as well as the antis may have a concern about that! Herbicides would definitely reduce available feed sources. Elk are primarily grazers, but will key in on browse species during certain times of the year. Browse species are often sources of high quality protein.[/color] And if that high quality protien isnt around,what happens. I guess I use the term browse rather loosely. I mean any of their natural foods in general.One more thing I thought was very significant was that thye said that eradication of the affected animals hasnt been ruled out! And they dont know what process they would use if it comes to that.Just to comment on my own comments. Could this be a subtle hint about the introduction of wolves? I would just about gaurantee you that even though they didnt mention it, that they havent been thinking about that option!Barnes told a few of us last night that he was told this was what they plan to do. But WDFW would not announce it until after permit apps. are in! Should be a real eye opener on how our WDFW works if this comes to fruition.Would like to write more. But gotta get to work.
Finally get a chance to reply to JLS It was nice to meet some of you guys last night. I was way impressed with the attendance.1 thing that I have been thinking about. Which if I can find the info in the Longview daily news. Is that Jonker said in 2013 they finally decided it was ok to eat elk with hoof rot. But it seems to me like they had an article in the paper in 2012 that said they wouldnt recomend it not knowing the cause. Then a month later said its ok to eat. If I'm right its contradictory to their statement last night.I think I have 2 sets of antlers in my shop that came from bulls with hoof rot. They are both very porous and deformed. Have seen several others.This could be a side effect of hoof rot, or also could very well be a symptom of calcium/phosophorus ratios along with levels of protein in feed.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22071000Most if not all of the elk that I have seen with deformed,Porus,and unshed horns of thetype I'm talking about had hoof rot. So I think there is a connection.They also said they tagged an elk that had hoof rot and tracked it for 3 years. But didnt comment on any changes to the affecteed hoof or hoofs and condition of the elk during that time. I would be curious to hear about that.It also seems to me like they couldnt see the forest through the trees when it comes to herbicides.Maybe its just my perception. But they were keying on the bacteria as being the cause of the hoof rot. It was pointed out by the audience from MSDS sheets that the herbicides cause several of the symptoms these animals have. Jonker also stated that our elk are low in copper and selenium. My concern would be, is the herbicide killing the browse that contains those minerals. Trace minerals are present in the soil, and are present in plants at levels that reflect relative levels in the soil. If the elk were that nutritionally stressed across the board, they wouldn't be at the population levels they are at. Elk are going to go SOMEWHERE to get the food they need, and if it's not available they die.WDFW are the ones that said they are low in copper and selenium. Just because they are low in a mineral doesnt mean they are going to die!. But it could mean their immune system is compromised. So yes, I think they could be nutritionally compromized and still be at the population levels they are at. But,since you mention it. Another widely talked about point at the meeting was that people havent seen near the number of elk in the past year that they previously have. The groups of people I have been around have witnessed the same thing. As far as going to where the food they need is. Maybe they will go there if they have access to it. Or maybe they will browse on less than ideal plants because that is what is left. So they are getting some nutrition. But maybe not enough or the right kinds.Maybe its just been enough to keep them alive. Or maybe its starting to really take a toll and they are dying off from the long term effects. Thus depriving them of the nutrients they need to fight off infections from the bacteria? If they arent getting the nutrients they need to stay healthy they are being stressed. We all know that stress causes health problems. Add in the stress of being hunted from Sept. to Feb. and their immune system has to be compromised. Kind of bouncing around here, but to me the herbicides seem to be a double whammy for the elk.(and deer) From ingestion of the herbicide. and possibly killing the exact browse they need for a healthy diet.Playing devil's advocate here, why is this then localized to SW Washington and is not being seen in Oregon? If the herbicides are the root cause then it would be present in all of the coastal range of Oregon also, right? Also, your perception of stress on an immune system for elk is taken from a human perspective. Being hunted every day by something is natural for elk.The Washington-Oregon comaprison was also addressed. I believe they said that Oregon hasnt been using the same herbicides, and not for as long a duration. But could be mistaken on that. Also, being hunted by an occasional,bear,cougar,or coyote, and I highly doubt on a daily basis. At least I havent seen it in 45 years of observing them. Is a lot different than being hunted by humans from daylight or before, till after dark. Everyday for a minimum of 5 months. Chased for miles on end from one field, clearcut, or timber patch to another till their tongues are hanging out and sweat is rolling off them all day long. With no real chance of rest. Do you really think thats a stress they are used to. I highly doubt it. And there is no way its natural. If they have food, water, and are not in the process of being eaten then they aren't going to be "stressed" per se like humans would. I would be very careful using the length of hunting season in this argument. Not only is it irrelevant, but it will come back to bite you down the road when used by anti hunters.. See my previous comments about the stress. Tie in the fatigue from being hunted for as long as they are and the way they are. Its gotta take its toll. So it is extremely relevent. As far as the antis go. Do you really not believe they already have all this info. Talking about it here isnt going to change that. The length of the season was another hot topic at the meeting,and I hear it discussed a lot within the hunting community. So I guess the hunters as well as the antis may have a concern about that! Herbicides would definitely reduce available feed sources. Elk are primarily grazers, but will key in on browse species during certain times of the year. Browse species are often sources of high quality protein.[/color] And if that high quality protien isnt around,what happens. I guess I use the term browse rather loosely. I mean any of their natural foods in general.One more thing I thought was very significant was that thye said that eradication of the affected animals hasnt been ruled out! And they dont know what process they would use if it comes to that.Just to comment on my own comments. Could this be a subtle hint about the introduction of wolves? I would just about gaurantee you that even though they didnt mention it, that they havent been thinking about that option!Barnes told a few of us last night that he was told this was what they plan to do. But WDFW would not announce it until after permit apps. are in! Should be a real eye opener on how our WDFW works if this comes to fruition.Would like to write more. But gotta get to work.
