Hoof Rot Town hall in Cowlitz Co.

[3dvapor]

I have no doubt u guys are on the right track,  keep us informed ill sign or show up at any of the next meetings or townhalls.

[pianoman9701]

First....you must deal with the right agency...for chemicals the department of Agriculture is the one to deal with, not the game department....sure they can give their opinion, but these are separate agencies.

A LOT of you that believe that the chemicals used are the "core" cause most likely use the same, and or, similar chemicals in your yards.....and you think nothing of it......you ever see the state spraying ditches, and right of ways with herbicides? Have you ever considered that these chemicals are washed from those ditches to river systems?? Be carefull at whom you point your fingers at, because many of you are doing the same in smaller quantities, BUT when several home owners in a block, and the next block..ect. add up to a lot of herbicides, fertilizers, pesticides that we all use. Just because it says Miracle grow....only means the miracle is in the synthetic fertilizer in the product.

Ironic that (some) people that support timber company land rights to charge access for hunters would take (or want to) take away their right to manage their lands as they see fit within the law....with no proof, only a presumed POSSIBLE reason for hoof rot.....laughable, unprovable at this point.....although I am open to a fact finding. I for the record believe they have the right to charge access, but disagree with it fully.

Bowbuild

If a landowner does something on his property which is proven to negatively effect wildlife, he's liable to the state for damages. The wildlife belongs to the people, regardless of whose land it's on. You're absolutely correct that nothing's been proven...yet.

To the contrary....if the landowner is following label law, he is NOT reponsible for the effects of the chemicals on wildlife, or anything else for that manner. The label IS the law....applicators, and home owners "in good faith" of the label rates set by the EPA and state Department of Agriculture are only liable if they deviate from the label. Call the department of AG. if you doubt me.

Bowbuild

If chemicals are in fact found to be dangerous and the company had a reasonable suspicion that they were when they used them (like say an existing  UN ban on a certain chemical spray), then the lawsuits will fly and that company will lose them. And, they should. But, we still don't know what's causing this. I think the cart's a little forward of the horse still.

[bowbuild]

First....you must deal with the right agency...for chemicals the department of Agriculture is the one to deal with, not the game department....sure they can give their opinion, but these are separate agencies.

A LOT of you that believe that the chemicals used are the "core" cause most likely use the same, and or, similar chemicals in your yards.....and you think nothing of it......you ever see the state spraying ditches, and right of ways with herbicides? Have you ever considered that these chemicals are washed from those ditches to river systems?? Be carefull at whom you point your fingers at, because many of you are doing the same in smaller quantities, BUT when several home owners in a block, and the next block..ect. add up to a lot of herbicides, fertilizers, pesticides that we all use. Just because it says Miracle grow....only means the miracle is in the synthetic fertilizer in the product.

Ironic that (some) people that support timber company land rights to charge access for hunters would take (or want to) take away their right to manage their lands as they see fit within the law....with no proof, only a presumed POSSIBLE reason for hoof rot.....laughable, unprovable at this point.....although I am open to a fact finding. I for the record believe they have the right to charge access, but disagree with it fully.

Bowbuild

If a landowner does something on his property which is proven to negatively effect wildlife, he's liable to the state for damages. The wildlife belongs to the people, regardless of whose land it's on. You're absolutely correct that nothing's been proven...yet.

To the contrary....if the landowner is following label law, he is NOT reponsible for the effects of the chemicals on wildlife, or anything else for that manner. The label IS the law....applicators, and home owners "in good faith" of the label rates set by the EPA and state Department of Agriculture are only liable if they deviate from the label. Call the department of AG. if you doubt me.

Bowbuild

If chemicals are in fact found to be dangerous and the company had a reasonable suspicion that they were when they used them (like say an existing  UN ban on a certain chemical spray), then the lawsuits will fly and that company will lose them. And, they should. But, we still don't know what's causing this. I think the cart's a little forward of the horse still.

Again what suspicion?? I realize this may be a bit emotional because of the loss of elk, and the continued insufficient response from (possibly) several agencies.....But once it is approved by the EPA and department of AG (from my understanding in the industry) you can not be held directly responsible.....Timber companies are not the manufacturers of these products. If they use them after a tempt, or permanent banned....yep, it's their butt! If there is a ban in other countries on any product chemical I would think the EPA would know, and how they choose to respond to that ban is up to each individual country from my understanding.

A example of this would be Canada.....We here in the USA as applicators we can apply vastly more products than any Canadian pest control company. I talked to a pest control company up north that told me that the US in one state like (Texas) has more termicide products applied to homes in one yr. than ALL of Canada in a calendar yr.....this is what I was told...I have no facts, other than their jealousy of not having as much product available to them. They are much more eviromentally conscious in my mind....but that's the way it is. States have the ability to ban ANY substance regardless of ANY EPA approval.....New York for instance has much stricter laws as it applies to pest control anyway.

My strong advice is to contact the department of AG and voice your concerns. You may be suprised at what information they can supply you, but is has to be a REASONABLE number of people to start a investagation. While I agree that chemicals of a costic nature are ill advised in any ecosystem....at the same time what is legal vs. what is fiction/fact can be a long way apart at times. I truly hope those that feel this is the true issue to pursue it....I personally am not convinced....YET!

Bowbuild

[t6]

http://tdn.com/lifestyles/state-s-stance-on-hoof-rot-s-cause-has-its/article_01b79620-bb81-11e3-8c53-001a4bcf887a.html                                                                                                                                                                Please log on and post comments or concerns.  We need to get info out to the non-hunters as well as those who missed the meetings. 

T

[elk247]

First....you must deal with the right agency...for chemicals the department of Agriculture is the one to deal with, not the game department....sure they can give their opinion, but these are separate agencies.

A LOT of you that believe that the chemicals used are the "core" cause most likely use the same, and or, similar chemicals in your yards.....and you think nothing of it......you ever see the state spraying ditches, and right of ways with herbicides? Have you ever considered that these chemicals are washed from those ditches to river systems?? Be carefull at whom you point your fingers at, because many of you are doing the same in smaller quantities, BUT when several home owners in a block, and the next block..ect. add up to a lot of herbicides, fertilizers, pesticides that we all use. Just because it says Miracle grow....only means the miracle is in the synthetic fertilizer in the product.

Ironic that (some) people that support timber company land rights to charge access for hunters would take (or want to) take away their right to manage their lands as they see fit within the law....with no proof, only a presumed POSSIBLE reason for hoof rot.....laughable, unprovable at this point.....although I am open to a fact finding. I for the record believe they have the right to charge access, but disagree with it fully.

Bowbuild

If a landowner does something on his property which is proven to negatively effect wildlife, he's liable to the state for damages. The wildlife belongs to the people, regardless of whose land it's on. You're absolutely correct that nothing's been proven...yet.

To the contrary....if the landowner is following label law, he is NOT reponsible for the effects of the chemicals on wildlife, or anything else for that manner. The label IS the law....applicators, and home owners "in good faith" of the label rates set by the EPA and state Department of Agriculture are only liable if they deviate from the label. Call the department of AG. if you doubt me.

Bowbuild

If chemicals are in fact found to be dangerous and the company had a reasonable suspicion that they were when they used them (like say an existing  UN ban on a certain chemical spray), then the lawsuits will fly and that company will lose them. And, they should. But, we still don't know what's causing this. I think the cart's a little forward of the horse still.

Again what suspicion?? I realize this may be a bit emotional because of the loss of elk, and the continued insufficient response from (possibly) several agencies.....But once it is approved by the EPA and department of AG (from my understanding in the industry) you can not be held directly responsible.....Timber companies are not the manufacturers of these products. If they use them after a tempt, or permanent banned....yep, it's their butt! If there is a ban in other countries on any product chemical I would think the EPA would know, and how they choose to respond to that ban is up to each individual country from my understanding.

A example of this would be Canada.....We here in the USA as applicators we can apply vastly more products than any Canadian pest control company. I talked to a pest control company up north that told me that the US in one state like (Texas) has more termicide products applied to homes in one yr. than ALL of Canada in a calendar yr.....this is what I was told...I have no facts, other than their jealousy of not having as much product available to them. They are much more eviromentally conscious in my mind....but that's the way it is. States have the ability to ban ANY substance regardless of ANY EPA approval.....New York for instance has much stricter laws as it applies to pest control anyway.

My strong advice is to contact the department of AG and voice your concerns. You may be suprised at what information they can supply you, but is has to be a REASONABLE number of people to start a investagation. While I agree that chemicals of a costic nature are ill advised in any ecosystem....at the same time what is legal vs. what is fiction/fact can be a long way apart at times. I truly hope those that feel this is the true issue to pursue it....I personally am not convinced....YET!

Bowbuild

Thanks bowbuild. I want to see this resolved as much as anyone. Your non-defensive firsthand input is appreciated by me at least. I believe we would be better off with controlled burning apposed to chemical spraying but that isn't a option at this time. I would support ANYTHING that helps to resolve this issue. But first we must hold the state accountable for ignoring this issue. It has been on the states radar for over 20 years. Maybe Mansfield isn't the right person to see this through? I thought the state wasted a huge opportunity to try to treat the elk this winter. Lack of selenium is a cop out I won't be buying.

[Tbar]

Elk247 who would you suggest is the person to see if through?  I see people (myself included) quick to criticize people (like Mansfield) who are very dedicated and well informed.  Last I heard there is really not a hoof rot expert in this country.  I do hope there is some resolution/cure found as I hate to see the elk suffer with this horrific ailment.  I don't see a cure in the immediate future, but I do see people that really do care (within the wdfw) trying like hell to make progress.  I don't buy the selenium and am skeptical to the herbicides. 
 I apologize as I, and many others must vent our frustrations.   

[bbarnes]

Myself and others have been working on the unhealthy ELK problems,in SW Washington for over a decade now,and we are as FRUSTRATED as all of you if not more.I have personally spent thousands of dollars,not only feeding these ELK but traveling to GAME COMMISSION meetings.In addition myself and others have gone to Olympia,on countless occasions to meet with our state law makers,and met with two different governors. We have seen major die offs on the north side of the Mount Saint Helens,in 06 and 08 also the Lewis river drainage.Only to find myself and others including some of the law makers,sawing in half for the BIOLOGIST the FEMURS of these ELK.We were told at that time by the WDFW,that it was starvation.Myself and others questioned this,and ask why are we doing no other tests.There were no vital organs taken as samples, no blood,urine,feces,skin,water,soil, etc,etc.Another interesting thing we noticed with all these ELK laying dead,NO predators would eat on them,WHY? During this time there were ELK transported to the NOOKSACK indian reservation and were told by the COOKS a husband and wife team of ELK BIOLOGISTS these ELK were in poor body condition.Myself and others had been questioning forest practices this whole time,yet no one would look into it.The WDFW kept saying the soils bad,but WHY?Could it be Mount Saint Helens blew in May of 1980.Could it be they created a canopy over 54 thousand acres of land,by replanting it all at the same time?Or could it be FOREST PRACTICES had changed,and the chemicals being spayed had sterilized the ground,of every ENZYME that our wildlife need to survive.Or they ingest these chemicals when eating the vegetation being sprayed.Never the less our SW Washington ELk are sick all over,not just by the MOUNTAIN.Then the HOOF ROT alarm sounded sightings of ELK limping all over WEST of interstate 5 all the way to the coast.So in 09 the WDFW came out with a study and it said,there were 28 different types of HOOF ROT found, great information NOW WHAT.During this time myself and others who had found out about this problem,had ask?whats going to be the treatment,and containment of these SICK ELK.The WDFW did nothing and has continued to do nothing,to treat or contain this problem.Ironically enough this problem now has made it to the south side of Mount Saint Helens in Cougar Washington.In addition its to COLD WATER observatory on the north side of Mount Saint Helens and up HWY 12 going to Yakima.Still doing nothing to contain the problem,i went to the 2013 commissioners meeting and ask the question there.I ask them to postpone hunting until they got a handle on this,and told them there was nothing in the GAME REGS,or in the TRENDS and STATUS report that indicated this problem.Also that day told them it needed to be put on the agenda for a commission meeting,and they needed to form a committee.After months went by it was put on the agenda,and a committee was formed.Since then there have been three HOOF ROT committee meetings where,all the same things have been rehashed over and over and over again.In the mean time still no treatment or containment of these SICK ELK,and still being able to HUNT them not knowing if there healthy enough to eat.We have also brought up a third party LIVE STUDY and testing,because according to some professionals the HOST DISEASE dies with the animal.We have now killed 45 elk with no results,and no test data from these labs that samples have been sent to,being made available for review to the committee or any other citizen.Now during this whole time myself and others on the committee,have brought up FOREST PRACTICES that have changed and the dangerous chemicals being sprayed.Yet still we wait until JULY for more results.My question is whats the next step is there a plan going forward by the WDFW.They say it will be here for a long time,how do they know that ?They also say they believe its transferred in the soil,but cattle that graze the same areas don't get it.Do we kill them all and start over?In my opinion have not seen one thing eliminated, and there to be a process of elimination here,and a plan going forward.We are now faced with yet another hunting season,a DISEASE thats spreading and WDFW selling us a ROTTEN DEAL.I would urge all of you to look at this with logic and common sense and ask,whats changed in our environment,did it really cross I 5 do i want to hunt the infected areas ,do we flood other units with hunters,or do i buy a license this year,or head EAST of the cascades.My suggestion is get involved,stay involved,ask tough questions do some research on your own.

[kentrek]

Barnes.....

I spend a considerable amount of time in the sw wa area...

Hoof rot has nothing to do with the mtn blowing up...if that was the case the elk on the pumis planes, spirit lake, plain of aberham & lahar would all be infected but they are doing just fine...infact there seems to be a nice little bubble of no rot directly around the mtn..

Why the bubble mt st hellens is the solution to this problem..not the cause..
the marget, toutle, lewis river are were all hit after the stella was by like 5 years or more

Wdfg hasnt protect our resources....why are they there again ?

[bbarnes]

My point exactly the Mountain has nothing to do with it.They say its the soil but,its the same soil on both sides.One thing does the USFS doesn't allow spraying of herbicides.Compare the ELK on both sides and on the north side there smaller, from no habitat.This is the point I'm making no habitat, no ELK and the study the WDFW just finished doesn't address the issues.We cant manage these animals for a dollar value,it needs to be managed as a recourse.Over harvest over stressed and over hunted, are also factors in the current problem.Mark my words now that there spaying down the clear cuts in Washougal,and has new management you will see limping ELK there.Then will they say it spread there from other ELK.This whole thing in my opinion is a huge cover up by law makers,and big money follow the trail,see if you can get any of these people to do a thing.The only thing that will get there attention is the threat of a injunction of the DNR,to stop permits and the WDFW to stop hunting until its resolved.There needs to be a full investigation of whats going on here,and people held accountable for ethics and fair chase,the vary thing the preach to all of us.

[bowbuild]

My point exactly the Mountain has nothing to do with it.They say its the soil but,its the same soil on both sides.One thing does the USFS doesn't allow spraying of herbicides.Compare the ELK on both sides and on the north side there smaller, from no habitat.This is the point I'm making no habitat, no ELK and the study the WDFW just finished doesn't address the issues.We cant manage these animals for a dollar value,it needs to be managed as a recourse.Over harvest over stressed and over hunted, are also factors in the current problem.Mark my words now that there spaying down the clear cuts in Washougal,and has new management you will see limping ELK there.Then will they say it spread there from other ELK.This whole thing in my opinion is a huge cover up by law makers,and big money follow the trail,see if you can get any of these people to do a thing.The only thing that will get there attention is the threat of a injunction of the DNR,to stop permits and the WDFW to stop hunting until its resolved.There needs to be a full investigation of whats going on here,and people held accountable for ethics and fair chase,the vary thing the preach to all of us.

I will be talking to a senator (hopefully soon) that seems very interested in pesticide usage, and restricting products that pose dangers to people and the environment. Although I can't promise anything, I will make it a point to bring your concerns up with the department of AG as well as this senator. I will also discuss this with other applicators, and will (try) to have one of those applicators come on here and explain in more detail the use of the products in question.......as he works with herbicides where I deal primarily with pesticides. I am not sure what he applies, where, or when.....or if he uses any of the herbicides listed. A lot of the pesticides/herbicides are far from perfect, and even though my business sense wants to defend such products because it IS my living, my sense of responsibility toward the environments wildlife, peoples health is more of a concern than a quick fix, for a quick dollar.

One more thing does cross my mind...kinda of a conspiracy theory....here goes...Sick animals with man not being able at will to cull the animals out because of political unease of a public slaughter.....the savior ever hear of the grey wolf?? What a perfect excuse to introduce the wolf out of need to control sick weak wildlife.....environmentally sound for non-hunters and anti-hunters a management tool for the game department Ah, the perfect ecosystem reestablishing itself.



Bowbuild

[kentrek]

My point exactly the Mountain has nothing to do with it.They say its the soil but,its the same soil on both sides.One thing does the USFS doesn't allow spraying of herbicides.Compare the ELK on both sides and on the north side there smaller, from no habitat.This is the point I'm making no habitat, no ELK and the study the WDFW just finished doesn't address the issues.We cant manage these animals for a dollar value,it needs to be managed as a recourse.Over harvest over stressed and over hunted, are also factors in the current problem.Mark my words now that there spaying down the clear cuts in Washougal,and has new management you will see limping ELK there.Then will they say it spread there from other ELK.This whole thing in my opinion is a huge cover up by law makers,and big money follow the trail,see if you can get any of these people to do a thing.The only thing that will get there attention is the threat of a injunction of the DNR,to stop permits and the WDFW to stop hunting until its resolved.There needs to be a full investigation of whats going on here,and people held accountable for ethics and fair chase,the vary thing the preach to all of us.

  cant agree more....people dont realize the effects money are having on our wildlife ...an people are worried about "shed poachers" ?? Give me a break...look at what our own wild life protectors are doing to the critters...its disgusting

[SnakeEyes]

Just found this article in The Columbian. Interesting to here about the misapplication of herbicides.

http://www.columbian.com/news/2014/apr/08/herbicide-likely-sprayed-on-homes/

[pianoman9701]

I have a friend who's done extensive crop dusting. He says that some of the chemicals are so toxic that you can't get any on you while you're loading the aircraft or you could get sick and/or die from a very minute amount. Granted, he was spraying in the 70s and 80s, but I still wonder what they're putting on our flora and fauna, and in the air we breathe and the water we drink.

[bbarnes]

Look up the Cedar Valley Oregon article from OPB on that and there findings.You can scroll though the permit and see they were spraying chemicals that weren't on the permit.If sportsman in this state don't think this is happening here they need to look a little harder.

[fireweed]

Spraying probably doesn't  cause hoof rot, but  spraying has changed the vegetation component that returns after harvest.  Before (slash burning days) fireweed was the dominant plant to return.  It returned after the eruption too, miles and miles of pink hillsides.  Some blast zone burned after salvage logging, some was not.  And we all know in those days there were lots of fat, healthy elk and deer.

Now, through the last decade or more, ragweed and various thistles (non-native) along with plants that are "immune" to most sprays (sword fern, horsetail, moss) are the only plants to return in abundance for the first year--followed then by grasses. 

I believe a first step is to try a pilot program of slash burning vs. site-prep spraying of clearcuts near elk abundance areas (like near the mudflow).  Weyco. is clearcutting next door right now along the wildlife area.  Good place to not spray and try something new (or old again...)  Some other areas do not need sprayed from a forestry standpoint--high elevation is one of those areas.  Unfortunately some companies (like Weyco.) site-prep spray everything as a matter of policy, instead of asking "does this site really need sprayed?"

Everyone can see what will be sprayed near them if they go to the DNR website and follow the links (search for Forest Practice Applications).  Public comment periods are required for all FPA's.  Huge areas of spraying are usually all lumped together, though, making it challenging to comment on a specific clearcut.