Police seek steelhead bandits who released 25,000 fish

[singleshot12]

I'd rather have some hatchery fish to bonk than no fish at all which is where we will end up if we shut down all the hatcheries. The wild fish nazis need to come back to reality.

The sport fishers need to stop being so greedy.  Yes the rivers will be shut down.  Yes it may be decades before they open.  No you will not be able to bonk Steelhead for awhile.  The end result will be an increase in true wild strains repopulating the rivers for sport fishing.

You have to understand that decades of mismanagement, over consumption, and habitat degradation have got us to this point.  It is going to take decades of recovery to reverse the adverse effects.  You cannot fix this overnight.  Patience will need to be exercised by all parties involved.

You are aware of the issues with introducing non-native genetic species into river systems?  Hatchery fish (with a few exceptions) are just that.  They are non native.  Some hatcheries are using wild genetic stock from the river to repopulate which should be the only active hatchery practice used for Salmonids in my eyes.

Well said! and agree we never should of had hatchery steelhead to begin with.

[magnanimous_j]

Can someone explain to me why hatchery steelhead are detrimental to wild? I would think they would take pressure off the native stock.

[singleshot12]

Can someone explain to me why hatchery steelhead are detrimental to wild? I would think they would take pressure off the native stock.

They've been known to inter-breed   But then again not sure how that is really possible since they both arrive in the streams at differant times   Good question

[TheHunt]

You should not shut down all Puget Sound rivers at one time to make they native fish rivers.  THAT IS BS in my mind.

Pick 2 or 3 and lets see how they do and take data metrics as the river comes back.  I think many of you have no idea that pen raised salmon are bad for native and hatchery fish.  If we are going back to native there should be no salmon pens near the path of the Native river. 

[BigGoonTuna]

Can someone explain to me why hatchery steelhead are detrimental to wild? I would think they would take pressure off the native stock.

because they're a convenient boogeyman.

the same problems that affect wild fish, affect hatchery fish.  while hatchery fish do impact wild fish to some small degree(everything has an impact, after all), they're far from the elephant in the room.  however, they are expensive, and it's easier for the general public to swallow hatchery cuts as a solution rather than address the big issues, such as habitat degradation and whatever the hell is going on in the ocean and puget sound.

i've already accepted that steelhead fishing is pretty much done on the west side of the state, the closure of the puget sound rivers has already been putting intense pressure on the now fragile populations of the coastal rivers and it's only a matter of time before those get shut down too.  the competition for the scraps we have left has sucked most of my enjoyment out of the hobby these days, i don't like like fighting over spots with the black hoody/flat brimmed ball cap crowd and the hordes of seattle guides in places i used to find some solitude.

[singleshot12]

You should not shut down all Puget Sound rivers at one time to make they native fish rivers.  THAT IS BS in my mind.

Pick 2 or 3 and lets see how they do and take data metrics as the river comes back.  I think many of you have no idea that pen raised salmon are bad for native and hatchery fish.  If we are going back to native there should be no salmon pens near the path of the Native river.

That'll be next

[singleshot12]

Can someone explain to me why hatchery steelhead are detrimental to wild? I would think they would take pressure off the native stock.

because they're a convenient boogeyman.

the same problems that affect wild fish, affect hatchery fish.  while hatchery fish do impact wild fish to some small degree(everything has an impact, after all), they're far from the elephant in the room.  however, they are expensive, and it's easier for the general public to swallow hatchery cuts as a solution rather than address the big issues, such as habitat degradation and whatever the hell is going on in the ocean and puget sound.

i've already accepted that steelhead fishing is pretty much done on the west side of the state, the closure of the puget sound rivers has already been putting intense pressure on the now fragile populations of the coastal rivers and it's only a matter of time before those get shut down too.  the competition for the scraps we have left has sucked most of my enjoyment out of the hobby these days, i don't like like fighting over spots with the black hoody/flat brimmed ball cap crowd and the hordes of seattle guides in places i used to find some solitude.

You nailed it!

[snowpack]

Can someone explain to me why hatchery steelhead are detrimental to wild? I would think they would take pressure off the native stock.

They are probably the easiest of all the factors to target, even if they are a very minor factor.  We hear about how they breed bad genes into wild stocks....but also how they are so unfit as to not successfully breed outside of a hatchery box.  Which is it?  Whatever the argument calls for.
They can add or divert pressure to the wild fish.  By attracting any fishing, they would inadvertently pressure wild fish that are in the river at the same time.  But having hatchery fish also gives the predators something else to eat and allows the wild to slip by (since supposedly hatchery fish aren't smart enough to evade).

[teal101]

Can someone explain to me why hatchery steelhead are detrimental to wild? I would think they would take pressure off the native stock.

To start they are of different genetics.  Each stream in a watershed has its own genetics.  The fish that spawn up Nason Creek are different genetically than the ones that head up the Chiwawa which are different from the ones up the Chumstick which are different from the ones up Mission Creek as well as different from the ones spawning in the main stem Wenatchee.  Most hatchery programs in this state use a stock from the McCloud River in California.  Introduction of these genetics muddies the native stocks producing fish that are truly non native.  Studies have shown the muddling of genetics hinders true native genetics reproduction.

Second the hatchery fish compete directly with native fish in many aspects.  First is spawning grounds.  The hatchery fish will displace native spawners.  They will create redds in native spawning areas reducing the amount of real estate for true native fish to spawn.  After that the hatchery genetic spawn compete directly with the native spawn for resources such as food and shelter.

Now at this point you might be asking, "Well if the hatchery fish spawn in the wild arent they now "wild"fish?".  yes to an extent.  They are wild, they are not native.  The issue relates back to genetics where it has been shown that the traits and habits hatchery fish pick up in the hatchery are passed on in their genetics to their spawn.  When they spawn with natives or with each other they produce fish with the genetic dispositions.  The genetic dispositions of hatchery fish are directly related to their life in a hatchery.  They tend to have a lower escapement rate in the wild than natives.  They have adapted to life in a hatchery and pass that on to their wild spawn.  Those adaptations hinder them in the wild.  As the hatchery fish muddy the genetic pool these traits are bred into the spawn creating a genetically inferior line of fish.

Removing hatcheries that are introducing non native genetic strains eliminates most of these issues.  It allows the natives to reproduce naturally with the stronger genetics native to their natal waters.  There are hatcheries utilizing native stock for hatchery fish.  They curtail the non native genetic mixing, but still introduce poor hatchery traits learned in the hatchery to the native stock, albeit to a lesser degree since most of the fish contain pure native genes and not those genetics that have been raised in hatcheries for decades.

[teal101]

Can someone explain to me why hatchery steelhead are detrimental to wild? I would think they would take pressure off the native stock.

because they're a convenient boogeyman.

the same problems that affect wild fish, affect hatchery fish.  while hatchery fish do impact wild fish to some small degree(everything has an impact, after all), they're far from the elephant in the room.  however, they are expensive, and it's easier for the general public to swallow hatchery cuts as a solution rather than address the big issues, such as habitat degradation and whatever the hell is going on in the ocean and puget sound.

i've already accepted that steelhead fishing is pretty much done on the west side of the state, the closure of the puget sound rivers has already been putting intense pressure on the now fragile populations of the coastal rivers and it's only a matter of time before those get shut down too.  the competition for the scraps we have left has sucked most of my enjoyment out of the hobby these days, i don't like like fighting over spots with the black hoody/flat brimmed ball cap crowd and the hordes of seattle guides in places i used to find some solitude.

You nailed the biggest issue.  Dams, logging, mining, pollution, and urban expansion have all affected the Salmonids the most.  Hatcheries are one step, not the biggest, but they are a step.

[teal101]

You should not shut down all Puget Sound rivers at one time to make they native fish rivers.  THAT IS BS in my mind.

Pick 2 or 3 and lets see how they do and take data metrics as the river comes back.  I think many of you have no idea that pen raised salmon are bad for native and hatchery fish.  If we are going back to native there should be no salmon pens near the path of the Native river.

They need to implement the program they have on the Sol Duc if they want to keep the rivers open.  It is working well and is using native stock.

There should be no net pens anywhere on the Columbia, period.

[teal101]

Can someone explain to me why hatchery steelhead are detrimental to wild? I would think they would take pressure off the native stock.

They are probably the easiest of all the factors to target, even if they are a very minor factor.  We hear about how they breed bad genes into wild stocks....but also how they are so unfit as to not successfully breed outside of a hatchery box.  Which is it?  Whatever the argument calls for.
They can add or divert pressure to the wild fish.  By attracting any fishing, they would inadvertently pressure wild fish that are in the river at the same time.  But having hatchery fish also gives the predators something else to eat and allows the wild to slip by (since supposedly hatchery fish aren't smart enough to evade).

The problem is some do breed and introduce poor genes into the native stock.  Yes they do have low reproduction numbers, but that isnt to say they dont spawn at all.

[snowpack]

You should not shut down all Puget Sound rivers at one time to make they native fish rivers.  THAT IS BS in my mind.

Pick 2 or 3 and lets see how they do and take data metrics as the river comes back.  I think many of you have no idea that pen raised salmon are bad for native and hatchery fish.  If we are going back to native there should be no salmon pens near the path of the Native river.

They need to implement the program they have on the Sol Duc if they want to keep the rivers open.  It is working well and is using native stock.

There should be no net pens anywhere on the Columbia, period.

That program has been shut down to turn the Sol Duc into a gene bank.  It is being re-established on the Bogachiel.  It did work well.

[teal101]

You should not shut down all Puget Sound rivers at one time to make they native fish rivers.  THAT IS BS in my mind.

Pick 2 or 3 and lets see how they do and take data metrics as the river comes back.  I think many of you have no idea that pen raised salmon are bad for native and hatchery fish.  If we are going back to native there should be no salmon pens near the path of the Native river.

They need to implement the program they have on the Sol Duc if they want to keep the rivers open.  It is working well and is using native stock.

There should be no net pens anywhere on the Columbia, period.

That program has been shut down to turn the Sol Duc into a gene bank.  It is being re-established on the Bogachiel.  It did work well.

It worked well enough to shut it down 

They honestly need to just leave it alone now and implement it on all currently populated Steelhead rivers to kickstart wild recovery.  It's the only "hatchery" program I support.

The removal of the Elwha dam was another big step.  I still cannot fathom why they want to Dam the Sky though...  I've also heard through the grapevine there is a serious consideration being put forth to finally implement fish ladders over Chief Joe and Grand Coulee.

[Bullkllr]

I somehow knew this thread would morph into the wild/hatchery debate (I think they all have).
I've defended wild fish for years; debated it on this site many times.  While I'm usually pro-wild, I cannot stomach this concession the DFW has made for a variety of reasons.

I'd rather have some hatchery fish to bonk than no fish at all which is where we will end up if we shut down all the hatcheries. The wild fish nazis need to come back to reality.

Not only no fish for bonking, try no fish to fish for, period, from Olympia to Canada through the Strait. This will have far reaching impacts that are not good for fishermen, or fish for that matter.

You should not shut down all Puget Sound rivers at one time to make they native fish rivers.  THAT IS BS in my mind.
Pick 2 or 3 and lets see how they do and take data metrics as the river comes back.

.
The fact that the DFW is not trying something else, and that they see this unilateral 'machete' approach as acceptable speaks volumes for who is really running the show and how generally useless management has become. Biggest effort made yet to have steelhead in Puget Sound Rivers: close a few of them down...when that doesn't work, close them all down.

I think many of you have no idea that pen raised salmon are bad for native and hatchery fish.  If we are going back to native there should be no salmon pens near the path of the Native river. 

And why are non-native hatchery stock salmon still being dumped into these same basins by the millions?
Oh, that's right... there's a commercial lobby involved...

The sport fishers need to stop being so greedy.  Yes the rivers will be shut down.  Yes it may be decades before they open.  No you will not be able to bonk Steelhead for awhile.  The end result will be an increase in true wild strains repopulating the rivers for sport fishing.

I'm not sure I'd call it exactly "greedy". I see fishermen clinging to shards of nostalgia; and by this broad stroke we are really talking about changing a way of life for some fishermen (if that hasn't already happened). No hatchery fish will mean no fishing. I see you are from the Wenatchee area. Years-long closures and cutting hatchery plants worked on the Wenatchee river at least. Puget Sound streams are a whole different scenario. Wild fish have already been off-limits for years. Some PS basin streams have been closed for years (Nisqually). Wild returns have not increased much, if at all.

You have to understand that decades of mismanagement, over consumption, and habitat degradation have got us to this point.  It is going to take decades of recovery to reverse the adverse effects.  You cannot fix this overnight.  Patience will need to be exercised by all parties involved.

All true; and patience is normally a good thing...but the amount required here is indefinable and may be infinite.
I am really afraid that once sport fishers are removed from the equation, about 90% of the concern for steelhead (hatch & wild both) falls by the wayside. When the fish only exist as a story from past generations, where will the impetus for preserving/fixing habitat, etc. come from? DFW- yeah...sure.

You are aware of the issues with introducing non-native genetic species into river systems?  Hatchery fish (with a few exceptions) are just that.  They are non native.  Some hatcheries are using wild genetic stock from the river to repopulate which should be the only active hatchery practice used for Salmonids in my eyes.

Again, true. But with the past, domino effects we have all lived through, who's to say what effects are having the most impact now- and into the future? What areas will be next for closures? (Get ready SW WA and Oly Pen)
 I don't think the DFW knows at all for sure. They just picked the cheapest and easiest "answer". Is there any broodstock plan or even a feasibility study for one on any PS streams? If so, no one seems aware of it. Again, cheapest, easiest, attack the weakest link management at its best.

Can someone explain to me why hatchery steelhead are detrimental to wild? I would think they would take pressure off the native stock.

They've been known to inter-breed   But then again not sure how that is really possible since they both arrive in the streams at differant times   Good question

Yes, they do. Different timing was not always the case. Do a google search. But the issue here is bigger than that.

Can someone explain to me why hatchery steelhead are detrimental to wild? I would think they would take pressure off the native stock.

because they're a convenient boogeyman.

the same problems that affect wild fish, affect hatchery fish.  while hatchery fish do impact wild fish to some small degree(everything has an impact, after all), they're far from the elephant in the room.  however, they are expensive, and it's easier for the general public to swallow hatchery cuts as a solution rather than address the big issues, such as habitat degradation and whatever the hell is going on in the ocean and puget sound.

i've already accepted that steelhead fishing is pretty much done on the west side of the state, the closure of the puget sound rivers has already been putting intense pressure on the now fragile populations of the coastal rivers and it's only a matter of time before those get shut down too.  the competition for the scraps we have left has sucked most of my enjoyment out of the hobby these days, i don't like like fighting over spots with the black hoody/flat brimmed ball cap crowd and the hordes of seattle guides in places i used to find some solitude.

Sad in so many ways. Saddest way of all: he's spot on.