Hoof Rot

[250savage]

  Saw this in the RMEF Elk Country News   

Biologists in Washington continue their efforts to zero in on a cause for a disease affecting elk in the southwest part of the state.

WATCH NOW

[250savage]

Sorry, I don't know how to get the vidio to work.

[Curly]

I tried to find the video, but came up empty.

Check this one out: 

Zombie Elk: Hoof Rot/Herbacide link? Is Weyerhaeuser to blame?

[wolfbait]

Are herbicides to blame for region's hoof rot woes? 
http://tdn.com/news/local/are-herbicides-to-blame-for-region-s-hoof-rot-woes/article_172ae622-0c87-11e4-861b-001a4bcf887a.html

[motg9_6]

Sad with the technology and resources available these days they can't seem to figure it out!

[Bob33]

Sad with the technology and resources available these days they can't seem to figure it out!

If it were as simple as  technology and resources, they would have solved chronic wasting disease and cancer for that matter.

[t6]

Identifying the disease and the source shouldn't be the problem...... now finding a cure?  I can understand that being more of a problem. 

We know many of the causes of cancer and in some cases they have a cure, just not in all cases.

In my opinion it boils down to the questions..... Are they willing to look at all potential factors as causes?   Are they willing to publicly attack the timber companies or chemical companies if they find that the forest practices contributed to the disease?  Does that influence or drive their research?

[idahohuntr]

Identifying the disease and the source shouldn't be the problem...... now finding a cure?  I can understand that being more of a problem. 

We know many of the causes of cancer and in some cases they have a cure, just not in all cases.

In my opinion it boils down to the questions..... Are they willing to look at all potential factors as causes?   Are they willing to publicly attack the timber companies or chemical companies if they find that the forest practices contributed to the disease?  Does that influence or drive their research?

This is the difference between them (Professional WDFW scientists) and the environmental activists on this forum.  WDFW is looking at all of the evidence...not just publicly attacking someone based on suspicion and a gut feeling...or a desire to achieve some larger environmentalist agenda regardless of whether it solves the problem. 

[motg9_6]

I wish I believed wdfw was seriously looking at all options but their actions show otherwise

[t6]

By their own admissions they have NOT looked into herbicides as a potential factor in the disease. 

Instead they brought in Dr. Anne Fairbrother of Exponent, a hired gun for the chemical companies, to claim that the herbicides have no effect on mamals.   WTH??   Really?   

True science conducted at a number of Universities tell a different story.  Lots of evidence available..... ya just gotta look at it.   

[idahohuntr]

By their own admissions they have NOT looked into herbicides as a potential factor in the disease. 

Instead they brought in Dr. Anne Fairbrother of Exponent, a hired gun for the chemical companies, to claim that the herbicides have no effect on mamals.   WTH??   Really?   

True science conducted at a number of Universities tell a different story.  Lots of evidence available..... ya just gotta look at it.   

You are twisting the facts again.  Not a shred of evidence suggests herbicides are worth looking at as the direct cause of the disease...they have narrowed it down to a bacterial infection and every single independent expert concurs.  And don't say something silly like "they haven't tested for it"...guess what...all of the evidence points towards a bacterial infection, so there is no need to "test" for herbicides in animals showing no signs of chemical toxicity.    I swear, if you went to the doctor with a knife sticking in your leg you would argue with him that you're bleeding because of herbicides...you would probably want him to test your blood for atrazine wouldn't you...it couldn't possibly be the knife!   

[t6]

BTW.... I dont consider myself an Activist.  Just concerned guy who hates being lied to. 

I dont think I'm twisting anything... They haven't tested for chemicals so they cannot say they are not a factor.  Their guess of Treponema has shown by their own advisors to be at least a secondary issue with an unknown iniating factor. 

What is iniating it? 

WDFW seems to think that science similar to a study on frogs.... They cut off the frogs legs and told it to jump.  When the frog failed to jump... they concluded that cutting off a frogs legs causes deafness. 

[idahohuntr]

They haven't tested for chemicals so they cannot say they are not a factor. 

Yep...same as your doctor who also probably would not test you for chemicals when you show up in the ER with a knife in your leg wondering why you are bleeding 

WDFW seems to think that science similar to a study on frogs.... They cut off the frogs legs and told it to jump.  When the frog failed to jump... they concluded that cutting off a frogs legs causes deafness.

That is pretty funny...I like that one...I need to file it away with one from I think it was wolfbait...his quote as I recall it was "It has been said if WDFW were to manage a beach you would not be able to find a grain of sand on it"     

[t6]

You failed to answer my question.... what is the iniating factor?  What is the disease? 

The cause is not Treponema....

Whats the harm in looking at studies done in the universites?  Why aren't chemicals being considered? 

Your right, we don't have an answer but then again, we haven't been paid to study it for 20 years.

[scoutdog346]

If its bacterial its not chemical. maybe it has something to do with elk becoming nocternal and hanging out next to the swamps in the high humidity as its like peatry dish. I think east side elk r exposed to dryer situations more the west side 3lk and maybe that has something to do with it I don't know?
 

[t6]

I dont discount or disbelieve that they are suffering from a combination of ailments however, their suceptability to Treponema and God knows what else was brought on by something. 

What is that SOMETHING?  WDFW would have you believe that there is no way it could be as a result of chemical contact however, they have not and seem unwilling to test chemicals as that SOMETHING. 

WDFW made two guesses before they came up with Treponema and despite being told that its secondary by their own advisors, are content in cramming that down our throats. 

Sadly I feel now that whatever the result any effort to repair the damage will be too little, too late.  This disease has now spread to herds as far south as Tillamook and as far north as Snoqualmie.  Hard for me to believe that there is anything elese causing this than something spread by man. 

We've allowed this "Wait and see" approach far too long.  We were quiet and trusting far too long.  I'm sorry, I want answers not more guesses. 

[headshot5]

T6,  Please don't take offense, but my question is this.  If a study is done by WDFW and the results show that it is not related to Herbicides... Will you believe them?  WDFW has had some transparency issues (wolf issues, and inaction on hoofrot until now), so what good are results if they are not believed unless they fall in line with what you felt was the right answer before the study?

Another question for you, do you agree with some of the others on the forum that culling should be postponed until after a study on herbicides and hoof rot is completed?   

*** Edit to add the following.
I only ask the question about culling because I want to know the reasoning behind not culling sick elk until the study is done.

[motg9_6]

i have a hard time believing that its herbicides. how long have they been spraying the woods around washington??? and we are now just starting to see this in the past few years....?? doesnt make sense
also they spray the woods all around the state so that would mean it should be in the east side elk the same as west right???
whatever it is causes them to not want to move letting their hooves get over grown and thus it become even more uncomfortable to walk, the rotting you see such as the video above may be due to high moisture of the wet side. so here lies the question... what is causing them to not want to move around and keeping them bedded down.

[xd2005]

One interesting change this past week or so, the Clark County Commissioners have taken up the issue.

I am sure many of you know or are familiar with Bruce Barnes. Well it turns out his father was recently appointed to the Board of Commissioners in Clark County. The Commissioners finally found something they can all agree on and aren't going to let the opportunity to slip by.  http://www.clark.wa.gov/news/news-release.asp?pkNewsSeq=2978

As a side note, for those that know Bruce and have not yet heard, he was seriously hurt last week at the Washougal motocross event when a bike left the track and hit him. http://www.columbian.com/news/2014/jul/26/track-worker-critically-injured-washougal-motocros/

[billythekidrock]

I saw that on the news and wondered if it was the same BB. I wish him a speedy recovery

[headshot5]

xd2005,

I have seen that article.  I don't think they should postpone the culling portion while they do their study on herbicides.  The study could take years and in the mean time the hoof rot would be free to spread.  I

I do question the WDFW call on using the infected meat for human consumption.  Not because I think that all hoof rot animals are unfit for human consumption, but I don't like the idea of the WDFW making the call on what gets put into the food supply.  While I personally am not afraid of hoofrot animals (that I evaluate in the field prior to killing), the ones who have had hoofrot long enough are susceptible to other diseases/bacteria etc, and that could cause problems.

[t6]

Headshot,

I would prefer to see an independent study due to the transparency issues you cited.     

If the study shows herbicides played no part, then so be it.   The herbicides have been sprayed on the timberlands for about 20 years..... the same approximate time we began to see hoof rot in the animals. 

I don't think that the chemicals directly cause the disease or diseases we are seeing however, I believe that their immunotoxic effects cause a reduction in the ability of the elk to fight the already present diseases.  This leaves the animals susceptible to any or all diseases they could otherwise fight off such as Treponema, and Leptopirosis. 

The suspected Leptopirosis could be a cause for the animals failing to move and wear their hooves.  Another disease that WDFW does not want to hear about.

Each of their guesses would be safe for human consumption but they admit they do not know for sure what all the diseases these elk are suffering with.  For that reason, I also object to feeding culled animals to shelters.  I know that many seized fish end up at nursing or retirement homes.   I'd hate to see questionable elk meat end up at a nursing home where many of the patients may have already compromised immune systems themselves. 

As for culling?  I'll use Idaho's analogy to some degree.... if you walked into a Dr's Office with a knife stuck in you, do you think its right for the Dr to put you out of your misery without looking at the knife wound?    We need to find out what the real cause is and if we can cure the elk.  If we can show they are not cureable then cull and hope that someday we may have elk survive in once effected areas.

[Curly]

I think it is wrong to leave severely sick elk out there to suffer a long painful death.  The real sick ones should definitely be put down.

[headshot5]

T6,

Thanks for the answers, it sounds like you want the same things I want as far as a study.  Everyone is clamoring for the WDFW to do a study related to herbicides, but I'm betting most wouldn't trust their answers.

I think it will be found that hoofrot is curable (concoction of sulpher pills and vaccines), to kill the bacteria infection, the problem is you won't be able to give this said concoction to the elk especially on the Westside.  It is just to thick and they are too spread out and wild so administering a cure will not be financially feasible.  I think culling is the only alternative to contain the disease where it is now.  If we wait for a study on herbicides before culling (as proposed in Cowlitz County see article in one of the above posts) it will probably take 5 years for the study to be properly done, and by then hoofrot will have spread well beyond where it is now.  Another thing to note, the elk that are far enough along where the hooves are gone are not going to suddenly grow hooves back with any cure.  So far from what I have seen none of them get better on their own.  Once the hoof is infected it is a 2-3 year downhill battle for the elk ending in a rough emaciated death.  Live studies are definitely needed the sooner the better, however I think culling will be required to contain it starting now.   

It definitely sucks, I personally believe that it is a bacteria infection and as such it spreads from direct contact.  As previously mentioned 15-20 years ago when hoofrot first showed up, every year it spread out from the Boisfort area.  It took around 5 years to move West into the area I hunted, which leads me to believe it spreads through direct contact.  Only time will tell.         

[headshot5]

I think it is wrong to leave severely sick elk out there to suffer a long painful death.  The real sick ones should definitely be put down

I'm with you Curly.  I can't imagine the point where the infected elk can no longer walk at all, just laying in the rain.  Waiting to see if they die of exposure, predators, or pnemonia.  I've found a few in this shape.  It's rough, nothing deserves to die like that.  Culling is humane in cases like these.   

[Hunter Dug]

I would prefer to see an independent study due to the transparency issues you cited.     

If the study shows herbicides played no part, then so be it.   The herbicides have been sprayed on the timberlands for about 20 years..... the same approximate time we began to see hoof rot in the animals. 

I don't think that the chemicals directly cause the disease or diseases we are seeing however, I believe that their immunotoxic effects cause a reduction in the ability of the elk to fight the already present diseases.  This leaves the animals susceptible to any or all diseases they could otherwise fight off such as Treponema, and Leptopirosis. 

The suspected Leptopirosis could be a cause for the animals failing to move and wear their hooves.  Another disease that WDFW does not want to hear about.

Bingo, My thoughts exactly

[pianoman9701]

I agree that the animals shouldn't suffer. I just don't agree that they know all they can know and that's the "final solution"; to kill every infected elk they see. They've told us they know what it is and it's incurable. Sorry, but even though our resident WDFW supporter continues to play their tune on his horn (in every single thread which questions the motives of the WDFW), their "science" is incomplete and it's tainted with corporate interference from involved parties which have a stake in avoiding the herbicide issue. Herbicides may well not be the root cause of this horrible disease. I don't know. But since they're not testing for it in their toxicologies and refuse to go forward researching them as a possible factor, the public will continue to be kept in the dark and the WDFW will continue to cull elk as their only viable solution. How small will the largest herd in the state get before they decide that something else needs to happen?

[t6]

Please don't get me wrong.  I beleive that for humane reasons, culling will be necessary.  I personally have to put down animals all year long that have either been hit by cars or are imobile and in obvious distress.  Last year it was six and three so far this year. 

As for the distrust with WDFW.... Trust and respect are something you earn.  Neither are deserved.  You cannot lie or cover the truth and expect people to see past that because you work for the government. 

I work for the government and people I serve expect me to be truthful with them.  Its doesn't have to be the answer they want to hear if its true and presented honestly, respectfully, and in a timely maner.  WDFW has not proven to me (and obviously others) that they currently deserve to be trusted. 

[idahohuntr]

Herbicides may well not be the root cause of this horrible disease. I don't know. But since they're not testing for it in their toxicologies and refuse to go forward researching them as a possible factor, the public will continue to be kept in the dark and the WDFW will continue to cull elk as their only viable solution.

Again, you very much misrepresent what is actually going on.  You guys keep saying they don't test for herbicides as though WDFW is intentionally ignoring a possible cause.  They are not taking on expensive and time conuming testing for chemicals  BECAUSE NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE SUGGESTS ANY TOXICITY and tons of evidence and peer review research indicates a bacterial infection.   

I really think maybe all the fairies over in Portland and Vancouver are spreading lots of pixie dust and that is causing hoof rot.  Somebody should write a letter demanding WDFW test elk for pixie dust contamination!  I think the pixie dust corporations are paying WDFW to look at all other causes besides pixie dust.  :rolleyes

[elk247]

i have a hard time believing that its herbicides. how long have they been spraying the woods around washington??? and we are now just starting to see this in the past few years....?? doesnt make sense
also they spray the woods all aallowe the state so that would mean it should be in the east side elk the same as west right???
whatever it is causes them to not want to move letting their hooves get over grown and thus it become even more uncomfortable to walk, the rotting you see such as the video above may be due to high moisture of the wet side. so here lies the question... what is causing them to not want to move around and keeping them bedded down.

Just to clarify, reported cases go back as far as 1994 so this issue has been around for about 20 years. It's only been in the mainstream media for the last couple years. To answer your question the badly overlapped hooves and extremely elongated deformed hooves rub and chafe themselves into a bloody mess that allows infection to also attack the already sick elk. To the point where the hoof is sometimes missing altogether and the animal has to walk on the leg bone or just use three legs until it dies. Wa can all agree that elongated hoof is not natural right? The question is weather the elk are poisoned in some way, malnourished, or if its a communicable disease. The centralized inception and steady spread would suggest at least in my mind that all three options and many others factors could have somehow come together in a "perfect storm" (if you will) to desimate the elk herds in sw washington. The rocky, dry soil in eastern Washington is more abrasive than the mud of sw Washington. It could be another example of a unique feature about sw Washington helping this get so out of hand. Personal opinions are often crusified on these threads because the scientists are the only ones that should have an opinion to many. But until they find a cure speculation from well informed folks that no doubt spend more time in the elk wood than they do , will continue.