Elk with Hoof Rot in Snoqualmie Valley, King County

[BsB]

I have a brother that lives there.  NW of town still shows to be WEYCO.  However again, as its been stated before.  Its not Just Weyco that sprays.

It hasn't been weyco for a long time.

sent from my typewriter

IIRC it was around 2000/2001 weyco sold to HFM. The tract that was just logged last fall, above Spring Glen and tokul west along the valley trail, I believe is/was owned by weyco and also several other chunks of land above the old mill were recently logged off and sold by weyco. Within the last year or so. Weyco still owns more land than you think in the valley, its becoming less and less though. From carnation/stillwater on up to exit 38 north of I90. I stumbled across a few of their parcels scouting with KC parcel viewer.

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[pianoman9701]

We're having arguments about which timber company owns land instead of every single hunter asking why this isn't part of the WDFW Elk Hoof Disease discussion? These snake oil salesmen love it when we clash with each other. They end up getting a free pass while we bicker.

I have no idea what Hancock sprays on their clear cuts and can't imagine it's very different from what WEYCO sprays, although I have nothing to show that, yet. Tree farm practices are very similar from one company to another and they certainly all have access to the chemical sprays. But that's easily determined and I'm sure, soon will be.

In previous posts, some of the dissenters on here have asked if this is caused by herbicides, why the disease is localized in the St. Helens and Willapa tree farms and not found elsewhere. Now that it's being found elsewhere, instead of alarms going off in your head, you strike out at other hunters who are actively working on this issue. We should all be concerned that since apparently the Snoqualmie Hoof Disease has been around for a while, or "old news" as one poster put it, why hasn't it been part of the WDFW's discussion? Do you guys in that area not think it's important that your elk are sick too? Why is it such a bad thing to bring the WDFW to task on this disease? I don't get it. 

[kentrek]

Just wait till the Nook & Yakima herd have the 70-80% die off....

[pianoman9701]

Just wait till the Nook & Yakima herd have the 70-80% die off....

When that happens, we'll probably just bicker about it while the DFW watches and then decides culling that herd is the answer.

[headshot5]

When that happens, we'll probably just bicker about it while the DFW watches and then decides culling that herd is the answer.

Good at least we have a plan.   

[grundy53]

We're having arguments about which timber company owns land instead of every single hunter asking why this isn't part of the WDFW Elk Hoof Disease discussion? These snake oil salesmen love it when we clash with each other. They end up getting a free pass while we bicker.

I have no idea what Hancock sprays on their clear cuts and can't imagine it's very different from what WEYCO sprays, although I have nothing to show that, yet. Tree farm practices are very similar from one company to another and they certainly all have access to the chemical sprays. But that's easily determined and I'm sure, soon will be.

In previous posts, some of the dissenters on here have asked if this is caused by herbicides, why the disease is localized in the St. Helens and Willapa tree farms and not found elsewhere. Now that it's being found elsewhere, instead of alarms going off in your head, you strike out at other hunters who are actively working on this issue. We should all be concerned that since apparently the Snoqualmie Hoof Disease has been around for a while, or "old news" as one poster put it, why hasn't it been part of the WDFW's discussion? Do you guys in that area not think it's important that your elk are sick too? Why is it such a bad thing to bring the WDFW to task on this disease? I don't get it. 

I wouldn't say I'm a dissenter. I'm just not convinced. It might very well be the spraying. Or it might be something else entirely. Also I'm by no means for spraying. I wish they would burn instead.

[bbarnes]

Pianoman your correct why aren't alarms going off in people's heads?People are only concerned with getting there kill in,unless there's nothing left to kill.Well I have news for most of you,there's pretty much nothing left,and this fall when you head out you will realize this.I don't know what it takes to get sportsman involved,but I think wasting time and hard earned money is a great start.Also I hate to let the cat out of the bag about CULLING THE ELK IN EFFECTED AREAS,but that's WDFWs plan.Those of us that attend the WDFW meetings,and were at the game commission meeting Friday,heard that in the directors report.

[Tbar]

Just wait till the Nook & Yakima herd have the 70-80% die off....

Very real fear, I don't know if you were joking but it's a very serious and complex issue. 
There are many areas being "watched", some make it sound so simple and that the wdfw is "ignoring facts" which more than likely is not the case.
As for being a dissenter, that's comical at best.  I may have a little more faith in some that others don't. I also don't oversimplify the issue at hand. I'm not going to jump on every bandwagon or drink John Goschs Kool-aid.

[Bob33]

We're having arguments about which timber company owns land instead of every single hunter asking why this isn't part of the WDFW Elk Hoof Disease discussion? These snake oil salesmen love it when we clash with each other. They end up getting a free pass while we bicker.

I have no idea what Hancock sprays on their clear cuts and can't imagine it's very different from what WEYCO sprays, although I have nothing to show that, yet. Tree farm practices are very similar from one company to another and they certainly all have access to the chemical sprays. But that's easily determined and I'm sure, soon will be.

In previous posts, some of the dissenters on here have asked if this is caused by herbicides, why the disease is localized in the St. Helens and Willapa tree farms and not found elsewhere. Now that it's being found elsewhere, instead of alarms going off in your head, you strike out at other hunters who are actively working on this issue. We should all be concerned that since apparently the Snoqualmie Hoof Disease has been around for a while, or "old news" as one poster put it, why hasn't it been part of the WDFW's discussion? Do you guys in that area not think it's important that your elk are sick too? Why is it such a bad thing to bring the WDFW to task on this disease? I don't get it. 

I think some of the "dissenters" might be more inclined to participate in the discussion if it were more respectful. Constantly portraying WDFW as the evil force preventing a solution from being found does little to solve the problem.

Also, the implication that the dissenters don't care it rather silly.

[pianoman9701]

We're having arguments about which timber company owns land instead of every single hunter asking why this isn't part of the WDFW Elk Hoof Disease discussion? These snake oil salesmen love it when we clash with each other. They end up getting a free pass while we bicker.

I have no idea what Hancock sprays on their clear cuts and can't imagine it's very different from what WEYCO sprays, although I have nothing to show that, yet. Tree farm practices are very similar from one company to another and they certainly all have access to the chemical sprays. But that's easily determined and I'm sure, soon will be.

In previous posts, some of the dissenters on here have asked if this is caused by herbicides, why the disease is localized in the St. Helens and Willapa tree farms and not found elsewhere. Now that it's being found elsewhere, instead of alarms going off in your head, you strike out at other hunters who are actively working on this issue. We should all be concerned that since apparently the Snoqualmie Hoof Disease has been around for a while, or "old news" as one poster put it, why hasn't it been part of the WDFW's discussion? Do you guys in that area not think it's important that your elk are sick too? Why is it such a bad thing to bring the WDFW to task on this disease? I don't get it. 

I wouldn't say I'm a dissenter. I'm just not convinced. It might very well be the spraying. Or it might be something else entirely. Also I'm by no means for spraying. I wish they would burn instead.

Grundy, even if it isn't spraying, why hasn't this herd been part of the discussion? This is what I'm concerned about here. Are there other cases of Hoof Disease we don't know about? I understand your misgivings about pinning this on spraying and agree that if spraying isn't the cause, we should be looking in ALL directions, regardless. And, if Hoof Disease is present in other areas of the state, the WDFW should 1. keep us informed about it, and 2. Have it be part of the overall discussion.

[Tbar]

I will also say I'm all for culling. Yesterday, if not sooner. I'm for anything that will slow the spread of this disease.

[grundy53]

We're having arguments about which timber company owns land instead of every single hunter asking why this isn't part of the WDFW Elk Hoof Disease discussion? These snake oil salesmen love it when we clash with each other. They end up getting a free pass while we bicker.

I have no idea what Hancock sprays on their clear cuts and can't imagine it's very different from what WEYCO sprays, although I have nothing to show that, yet. Tree farm practices are very similar from one company to another and they certainly all have access to the chemical sprays. But that's easily determined and I'm sure, soon will be.

In previous posts, some of the dissenters on here have asked if this is caused by herbicides, why the disease is localized in the St. Helens and Willapa tree farms and not found elsewhere. Now that it's being found elsewhere, instead of alarms going off in your head, you strike out at other hunters who are actively working on this issue. We should all be concerned that since apparently the Snoqualmie Hoof Disease has been around for a while, or "old news" as one poster put it, why hasn't it been part of the WDFW's discussion? Do you guys in that area not think it's important that your elk are sick too? Why is it such a bad thing to bring the WDFW to task on this disease? I don't get it. 

I wouldn't say I'm a dissenter. I'm just not convinced. It might very well be the spraying. Or it might be something else entirely. Also I'm by no means for spraying. I wish they would burn instead.

Grundy, even if it isn't spraying, why hasn't this herd been part of the discussion? This is what I'm concerned about here. Are there other cases of Hoof Disease we don't know about? I understand your misgivings about pinning this on spraying and agree that if spraying isn't the cause, we should be looking in ALL directions, regardless. And, if Hoof Disease is present in other areas of the state, the WDFW should 1. keep us informed about it, and 2. Have it be part of the overall discussion.

I completely agree.

sent from my typewriter

[pianoman9701]

We're having arguments about which timber company owns land instead of every single hunter asking why this isn't part of the WDFW Elk Hoof Disease discussion? These snake oil salesmen love it when we clash with each other. They end up getting a free pass while we bicker.

I have no idea what Hancock sprays on their clear cuts and can't imagine it's very different from what WEYCO sprays, although I have nothing to show that, yet. Tree farm practices are very similar from one company to another and they certainly all have access to the chemical sprays. But that's easily determined and I'm sure, soon will be.

In previous posts, some of the dissenters on here have asked if this is caused by herbicides, why the disease is localized in the St. Helens and Willapa tree farms and not found elsewhere. Now that it's being found elsewhere, instead of alarms going off in your head, you strike out at other hunters who are actively working on this issue. We should all be concerned that since apparently the Snoqualmie Hoof Disease has been around for a while, or "old news" as one poster put it, why hasn't it been part of the WDFW's discussion? Do you guys in that area not think it's important that your elk are sick too? Why is it such a bad thing to bring the WDFW to task on this disease? I don't get it. 

I think some of the "dissenters" might be more inclined to participate in the discussion if it were more respectful. Constantly portraying WDFW as the evil force preventing a solution from being found does little to solve the problem.

Also, the implication that the dissenters don't care it rather silly.

Sorry, but with this thread specifically, I find it very odd that the DFW hasn't included the Snoqualmie problems in the discussion, at least not in any hearing I've attended. I was surprised by finding this out over the weekend. Why aren't they including it? Do they think it's another, unrelated disease of elk that is occurring? And with them bringing a representative of the herbicide industry to the last Vancouver meeting without identifying her as such is greatly suspect. She was there to specifically derail the testimony of Dr. Mora and Krystal Davies who've done volumes of work on this by saying that herbicides have no ill effects on mammals. Do you believe that, Bob? Would you eat food with freshly sprayed herbicides on it?

I'm sorry you don't feel that I'm giving the DFW the proper level of respect on this issue. But I feel they've done a very poor job, at best. If it weren't for bbarnes and jongosch, and others like them pushing hard, there's a good chance they'd still have it on the back burner. Maybe you have inside information that I haven't any access to which would put them in a more favorable light. I'm absolutely open to that if you're willing to share it.

I did not imply that dissenters didn't care. I asked if that was the case in light of the pushback from them on this thread. I got my answer from Grundy that it isn't the case.

[idahohuntr]

Constantly portraying WDFW as the evil force preventing a solution from being found does little to solve the problem.

Also, the implication that the dissenters don't care it rather silly.

Well said.  It seems that many in this discussion are so blinded by their desire to end herbicide application that they are unwilling to objectively evaluate the data.  I see a lot of interest in a) villifying wdfw b) ending/reducing herbicide use and c) gaining notoriety and grandstanding on this issue.  My perception is that there is less interest in actually solving the problem or helping elk by those most vocal on this complex issue. 

These statements that WDFW is hiding hoof disease found in other parts of the state are not true.  Kristen Mansfield in her first one or two slides at the GMAC meeting discussed how hoof disease/issues have been observed sporadically around the state...as in EVERYWHERE...for DECADES!  Including eastern WA.  If you go to the hoof disease link on the WDFW website you will see her presentation and on the 2nd slide it shows pictures of hoof disease issues from animals collected in E. Wa in 2012.  Again, this "wdfw is hiding other places the disease is found" is not factual...it seems folks are just so blinded by these wdfw conspiracies they refuse to look at the evidence and information wdfw provides in all sorts of public forums.

[Special T]

I'm not really sure what is causing hoof rot, but like many  here id like to know.

What i would like to know is WHY its such a bad thing to ask hard questions and challenge the WDFW?

In my business i have many different kinds of working relationships. Some are very healthy and when we do deals we don't worry about getting too deep in the details because there is a lot of trust. Some are new and we are "Courting" trying to figure out what kind of person the other is, and Several are adversarial relationships. We play chess against each other.

I would say its our DUTY to ask hard questions and do what we can to try and solve problems, and to challenge things that don't make sense. The WDFW has gotten a pass from hunters for a LOooong time because we have been too disorganized. That is changing so that means they are going to have to answer questions, or we will likely need to be more hostile like the greenies have been... The WDFW does not seem to realize that we sportsmen can either be their biggest asset, or their PIA and really the choice is up to them.