WDFW's "Final Solution": Euthanize Severely Affected Elk

[t6]

I'm not convinced that they have made good decisions based upon science.  That would require them to do unbiased and complete testing of everything.  They have by their own admissions ignored the possibility of herbicides or other toxins by not testing for them. 

They have not tested for toxins, even the ones they know are present. 

Why?   

[jongosch]

So, if the responsibility and the science based decisions belong to the state what is the problem?

Are you being serious?  The problem is that our elk are being decimated on WDFW's watch, and after 20 years they still don't have a clue what's causing it. 

And if you paid pianoman $70,000/year + benefits, I think it would be fair for you to expect competence and results.

[headshot5]

Are you being serious?

Read through my last two posts...  No I'm not being serious.  I'm asking the question of what point do we either go above the state or back them. 

Pianoman pointed out that wildlife management is the states job and they have the tools.  So I replied then what's the problem then (sarcastic).


 

[Curly]

I have eaten elk with a hoof deformity.  I don't think it affected me........ 

Lots of other people have eaten elk that have been affected.  I don't think anyone has had any negative results from eating them or been infected when cleaning/gutting/butchering the elk.  Seems like based on that, it is highly likely that the meat is fine to eat. 

But, with that said, I'm not going to be hunting hoof rot elk anytime soon. 

[pianoman9701]

I have eaten elk with a hoof deformity.  I don't think it affected me........ 

Lots of other people have eaten elk that have been affected.  I don't think anyone has had any negative results from eating them or been infected when cleaning/gutting/butchering the elk.  Seems like based on that, it is highly likely that the meat is fine to eat. 

But, with that said, I'm not going to be hunting hoof rot elk anytime soon. 

I've seen your posts. You should go get checked for mad elk disease! 

[Curly]

     

Actually, I did have some health issues that were never diagnosed.  I would get hives on my back and sides and last for a couple hours each time I'd get them.  The episodes would happen a few times per week and gradually lessened to maybe once a week and then reduced even more.  Doctors couldn't figure it out and the episodes finally did go away after a few years.  Never thought about potentially tainted elk meat being a cause..........    Still probably not likely, but............. 

[pianoman9701]

Any pain in your calves or thighs? Any problems with your kidneys, liver, or digestive tract?

[Curly]

Any pain in your calves or thighs? Any problems with your kidneys, liver, or digestive tract?

I do get a pain in my side sometimes but that is when I laugh at some of the posts on this board.

Actually I do get muscle pain in my calves and thighs and the pain is reduced when I take a supplement of magnesium. 

[jongosch]

Curly, I'm sorry to hear about your health problems.

Along these lines, my older brother who is a deputy sheriff in Clark County has developed some kind of a neurological disorder over the last several years which often causes him to flinch and spasm, sometimes violently so.  He's had this condition looked into numerous times by his doctors but so far the cause is still unknown.  My brother now thinks that it may be related to these chemicals.  He's spent a lot of time in the woods, including areas that have been recently sprayed, and was even dumped on with a load of nitrogen once.  He's also eaten a tremendous amount of elk meat, some that had hoof rot, and I'm sure many more that had ingested these chemicals.

This doesn't mean that my brother's disorder is definitely caused by herbicides, but I'd say it's possible, and it's one of the reasons that I've been working so hard on this case.

[jongosch]

Here's another interesting message that just popped into my inbox.  From Judy Hoy, a wildlife rehabilitator and researcher from Montana. 

"I have seen this on several mule deer and on white-tailed deer. The overgrowth of the hooves is thought to be because of the pain, the elk don't walk enough to wear off the hooves. However, the photos show extreme overgrowth, with the tips of the hooves apparently growing very fast - not like what an animal gets more slowly from not wearing off the hooves. Very fast keratin growth on birds and mammals is more likely caused by disruption of the pituitary glands by estrogenic chemicals, causing the glands to produce excess growth hormones, which are sent to the keratin of the hooves on ruminants or bills on birds. Some people think the elk have a bacteria which causes the pain so they lay around a lot rather than walking and they may have the bacteria (which I can't spell without looking at it), but that still doesn't explain the extreme, weird keratin overgrowth. Both Atrazine and 2,4-D with which the tree farmers spray the forest where the elk live are very severely estrogenic and both are extremely disruptive to the immune systems of the exposed animals, so likely work synergistically to produce the extremely drastic effect on the pituitary gland, the growth hormones and the growth of the keratin. The final result is an extremely inhumane death for the elk - and I thought being born with an underbite was inhumane - what is happening to the elk in Washington makes me feel sick."

Nice article about her work here: http://www.psmag.com/environment/more-evidence-linking-pesticides-and-malformations-30560/

[Gringo31]

Interesting discussion....

Thought I'd throw out a little of hoof rot.  Yes, cattlemen commonly have to deal with it.  Like anything else, the sooner you get on it, the better results you have.  Environmental factors are what contribute to it (you see much more of it in the winter with dirty conditions).  Once that infection gets into the joint.......it's very tough to cure.

The discussion of herbicides I find real interesting.  I know nothing about them but if I had a gallon of it and wanted to spray it on my pasture, I'm curious what the label would say on how long to keep livestock out of the area 

[hirshey]

This is one of the big issues I have with these hoof rot threads.  You guys confuse multiple issues together and blame WDFW haphazardly for all of it.

WDFW is trying to manage elk and determine the cause of hoof rot, which it looks like they are making significant progress on.  The elk with hoof rot are as safe to eat as the elk without hoof rot.  They are all probably as safe to eat as the livestock produced in those areas...maybe safer!

Any animal with an open wound, let alone in a moist environment should not be so confidently deemed "safe" or "safer" in my humble opinion. Even if it is a secondary or tertiary consequence of their ailment, these are my issues:

Open wounds allow access to the blood stream from the outside environment. Ailments such as hoof rot that really do not heal offer pretty much constant access; providing that much more of a chance for devastating infections or bacteria to capitalize on the animal's weakened health.

Severe cases of hoof rot provide incredible mobility challenges. I'm certain most of you have seen it first hand or via video; it is heartbreaking to hear their vocalized struggles and watch them painfully navigate the fern bottoms and logging slash. Most animals our hunting party has harvested with hoof rot have shown a significant amount of decrease in muscle tone in the affected legs. With this decreased mobility, the chances of the affected animals attaining the same nutritional levels as a healthy animal is slim; they spend more time getting to/from bedding and feeding areas which only takes away time for them to forage.

Decreased quality/quantity of feed combined with continuous threat of infection/blood borne diseases... you can't convince me these animals are "safer" to eat. Safe? Perhaps. Healthy? There's a chance. Safer? Never going to buy it. 

[pianoman9701]

Interesting discussion....

Thought I'd throw out a little of hoof rot.  Yes, cattlemen commonly have to deal with it.  Like anything else, the sooner you get on it, the better results you have.  Environmental factors are what contribute to it (you see much more of it in the winter with dirty conditions).  Once that infection gets into the joint.......it's very tough to cure.

The discussion of herbicides I find real interesting.  I know nothing about them but if I had a gallon of it and wanted to spray it on my pasture, I'm curious what the label would say on how long to keep livestock out of the area 

Gringo, they do post warnings in the clear cuts when they spray them with this junk. I believe it says 60 days, but not positive.

[bobferris]

As I said in the last thread, this all comes down to figuring out a defensible strategy for moving forward.  It also might mean comparing notes with others in other states like Josh Leavett and making it a federal issue in order to get more funding and focus on what might be a broad syndrome with multiple symptoms. 

And I agree with Idahohuntr that experimental design in this instance would be challenging (read:nightmare) because of the variables involved [e.g., herbicide use, climate changes (warmth and wet), food availability, successional stages of public and private forests, rainfall pH, new disease factors], but not completely impossible if bitten off in manageable chunks like creating an herbicide free zone here and fencing off of damp areas there--easy to say but harder to do. 

It is hard in all of this to ignore this issue of herbicides and be satisfied with a "trust us" sort of answer in this regard.  Setting aside the habitat implications which are very significant, there are mountains of anecdotal materials that indicate this a likely area of investigation.  Casually ignoring it or prematurely dismissing it only leads to further distrust.

[bbarnes]

In addition to this thread I started a deformed antler thread on the elk hunting forum.If you or anyone you know has shot a elk in SW Washington with deformed antlers post it up please.