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Author Topic: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State  (Read 31092 times)

Offline huntnphool

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #90 on: July 25, 2014, 02:02:13 PM »
Welcome to the Forum Dan.  I've been through many iterations of the "how should we manage our herds?" discussion.  I don't have all the answers, but would like to throw out some thoughts and observations.

First, wolves are a game changer (pun intended), and the differences between the presence and absence of wolves will vary greatly - and the effects on mule deer are/will be profound, and very different depending on the fairly local habitat characteristics.  However, the net effect will be less mule deer.

In terms of predation in general, I think predation effects are greater even though some predator populations are smaller - because the herds are smaller too.  Expecting State or Federal government to do anything different with predation is a waste of resources - expend them elsewhere.  Hunters who want predator control need to take it upon themselves and devote more efforts to hunting predators where they like to hunt deer.  Predator control is small-scale and its effects are temporary, there is absolutely no way WDFW can control predators even if they want to do so.  What we can do is fight aggressively for increased opportunities: bring back effective, body-gripping trapping on private land, over the counter second bear tags statewide, etc. 

I would like to address herd size/herd ratios/scientific management too.  There is very little scientific basis for managing mule deer hunting - 99% of it is social.  We stop hunting populations long before they are in danger of extinction, and wildlife conflicts preclude reaching habitat carrying capacity anywhere people live and grow crops.  So, the parameters of minimum viable populations and habitat carrying capacity don't apply very much to harvest management - it's people management, and the key to habitat is the better the quality and quantity of habitat where deer are welcome and tolerated, the larger the deer herd can be allowed to increase.  Throw in enough bucks surviving to get the breeding done, and enough fawns surviving to replace the adults that die - that's the end of the biology.  Managing for buck escapement ensures the breeding, hence the ratios - but those are quite a bit higher, socially, than what is required for breeding.  All of the other biological considerations are fine-tuning - for size of bucks, number of antler points, increased fawn survival through synchrony of breeding and fawning - they may have some effect on herd composition, and a small effect on herd size, but it is small overall, and geared toward social desires: we want big bucks, we want a certain level of probability of hunting success, BUT we want to hunt every year, with OTC licenses.  We want high buck survival for the late special permit hunts so they are a virtual gimme for the lottery winners, but then we complain that we are hunting during a lousy time of year.  Archers want the rut, modern guys want later dates, muzzleloader guys want more units open. 

We as deer hunters are overly dependent on technology: it increases success at the expense of opportunity.  The few who would sacrifice their own technology for better season dates or longer seasons are in the minority.  We complain about short seasons, but the majority vocally oppose limiting their motorized access. 

I have my own preferences and biases.  I think we should hunt mule deer in September and October, then leave them alone to do their breeding and get about the business of surviving winter.  No late permits, no late general mule deer hunts for modern, muzzy or archers.  We should get much more vocal about closing crucial winter ranges to AT LEAST motorized access to protect herds and keep them on lands where they are tolerated; pushing them off the public land and down into peoples' yards and orchards where they are less welcome, is stupid. 

We should vocally support management to make our national forests more fire-safe: mule deer don't thrive on closed canopy forests.  Thinning and cool burns - rather than firestorms that sterilize soils - would greatly enhance the size of mule deer herds, within the tolerances of existing human population and land uses.

We have around 100,000 mule deer, give or take 50,000.  It is biologically correct that our herds are in good shape - in terms of persistence and postseason buck ratios.  That is the disconnect, we want more animals to kill, AND with more bucks surviving. 

I hope the initiative works - I suspect I know who your author will be.  My only piece of advice, really, is for interested sportsmen to really figure out what they want, and to do it.  Don't waste efforts trying to get WDFW to do a bunch more for big game species, the funding and demographics of the voters preclude any sudden emphasis and pouring of funds to deer. 

When you are in Wenatchee hit me up, I'd love to chat.

 :tup:
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #91 on: July 25, 2014, 02:04:56 PM »
Bearpaw and everyone else.  My post was more to educate so that when folks are participating at any level ask the hard questions....where's the beef?  Actual on the ground major work, increased ability to take predators, etc.  The things that will actually make things better....whatever they may be. 

Don't just buy into a plan or action dictated by meaningless paragraphs that do nothing.  Put WDFW and other entities, i.e. conservation groups, etc on the hot seat.  Press the issue.  Let them know that the usual has done nothing and you are aware of it.

Also....whether you like it or not, tribes may be your best friend.  Develop relationships which takes time if you want to change the perception that palefaces don't like them.  They have real power.  They actually want the same thing....in it's simplest sense...numbers.

 :tup: totally agree
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Offline jackelope

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #92 on: July 25, 2014, 03:11:32 PM »
Happy to see several if the folks I was hoping to see post in this thread. Thanks to everyone for contributing. Maybe this is a good way to get some change started.
"Hate speech does not exist legally in America. There's ugly speech. There's gross speech. There's evil speech. And ALL of it is protected by the First Amendment."

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2014, 04:28:44 PM »
I think there are two things that could be done to improve mule deer numbers and that most people would agree with: 1) restoration/improvement of habitat and 2) reduce harvest by hunters.

Number two certainly wouldn't be popular with many hunters, but I don't think they could argue that it wouldn't be beneficial.

And of course it's pretty hard to say better habitat isn't a good thing.

Reducing predators is a good idea but not likely to ever happen in this state.

Habitat can always be improved,  but many areas of the state are no where near carrying capacity.   
reducing harvest by hunters will increase harvest by predators, and increase predators.


I think we can improve habitat where needed, reduce predators and keep hunting restricted during a herd rebuilding phase and in a few short years we could see fantastic hunting.


I think that we're all used to chasing small numbers of animals, we'd all probably freak out if we seen what "could be" if we aggressively managed predators.

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2014, 09:42:11 PM »
Big Jim, use to stop in our camp every year before the opener. He was a great source of knowledge about mule deer, or just about anything in the Methow.

Definitely going to get that book thanks for the reference!

Great man,someone who has a real passion for the animals he watched over at the time and to this day.He and my dad had many conversations about road closures concerning many of the migration routes in the Methow.Jim would pick my dads brain and even braught Sig to our camp and introduced him to my dad to get a "less scientific" and a more hands on feel of routes from a man that had been hiking and hunting that valley for over 50 years (at that time). Alot of the roads you see closed and gated around the Methow  today were contimplated around a campfire between my dad and Jim(specific closers and routes i will not mention).If it was up to my dad for instance,youd only be able to drive to the rifle range going towards Sullivans pond,from that point "get off your a?? and walk". My dad is in his 80,s now and there still isnt enough roads closed! To this day he still thinks Jim walks on water :chuckle:...and you know what i agree,they dont make guys like Jim anymore that watch over our deer in the Methow.... :twocents:
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 09:57:29 PM by bigmacc »

Offline MuleDeer

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2014, 10:50:51 PM »
Wow, I missed a day, and I'm playing major catch-up!  Good to see that this is such a hot topic: it gives me encouragement that we will have a good group who are willing to get vocal and work for change.
The ideas you guys are throwing out are great, and some definitely more critical than others as a starting point.  Let me give you all an idea of what we have done or are working on right now in the state.  I'll just list a few projects that have or will have an impact on our herds and how we manage.
1. MDF has donated $$ to help WDFW purchase lands to avoid development, and turned those lands into "feel free to hunt" properties.  As a matter of fact, I just received an email today about a proposal for WDFW to purchase a 20,000 acre block, bit by bit, just south of the Yakima res.  Something we will be looking into helping with.
2.  Habitat: major projects we are looking at now...Central and North Central WA habitat improvement after fires is a big one, and we are looking at a number of separate projects to do there.  Smaller habitat projects all around E. WA have been or are being done each year as possible.  Most of these are funded solely by a local chapter, so our reach has been limited so far, with very few chapters in the state.
3.  A study and funding push is being done right now for a 12 mile stretch of Hwy 97 to install 2 underpasses for deer.  This is going to cost around $500,000, so it's a big one that we are trying to gain national funding for.  Other underpass projects could follow after success in this initial project.
4.  Besides the long study that was just done on Mule Deer, we are also funding a current study to monitor fawn mortality in wolf areas vs. non-wolf areas.  This will help us in how we recommend management of wolves in the future.
5.  Educational and shooting events for youth.  These events are not only shooting, but teaching youth the importance of conservation, and being a hunter.  Recruitment of new hunters is critical if we are going to be able to continue hunt and have access to the things that we love.

These are just a few of the things we are doing right now.  A couple of you mentioned funding...that is our biggest obstacle.  That is why my job is to help start more chapters; so we can raise more money to put into these projects.  I know some of you are cynical about conservation groups, but remember, we are non profit.  That means we have to spend our money...there is nothing left over at the end of the year.  And with our low overhead at the national office, that means more $$ on the ground!  We've only had a few chapters in WA for the last few years.  Our goal is to see WA with around 20-25 chapters statewide, making an even bigger difference for our deer herds.
Thank you all for your comments so far, and keep them coming.  I know it's nearing the time to be out scouting, but if any of you would be interested in getting together for a brainstorming session, let's plan it.  Ellensburg is usually a good central spot for most of us, but I'll travel anywhere to meet up with you guys, just let me know.  I'll be compiling all of the suggestions, working on some legitimate measures to suggest, and present them to our MDI author.  As Dale said earlier, the new planning period is right now.  That is a great time for you as individuals to have your voices heard.  Get online and make your comments.  The process of change takes time, but the more we make ourselves heard the better our chance of seeing results.  This MDI is not going to be a directive; it is a guideline that we will provide, based on needs and best practices.  What's worked in other states will be included, just as what's not worked will be eliminated.
Glad to be here, and I'm glad we're getting some great input here!
"We didn't inherit this earth from our fore fathers, we're borrowing it from our children."

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2014, 11:05:46 PM »
Dan, you've probably read some of the criticisms regarding NWTF and funds raised in WA not staying in WA.
FYI - I do understand both sides of that issue.

How does the MDF stack up, can you give us any numbers/percentages of what happens with state chapter banquet funds and other money raised in the state?
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #97 on: July 25, 2014, 11:12:15 PM »
I think SCI has been very successful because if I'm not mistaken chapters get to keep 70% of what they raise and only have to send 30% to national. That formula has made chapters very successful. What formula does MDF use?
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided Hunts, Unguided, & Drop Camps in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wash. Hunts with tags available (no draw needed) for spring bear, fall bear, bison, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, & wolf! http://trophymaps.com DIY Hunting Maps are also offered

Offline MuleDeer

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #98 on: July 25, 2014, 11:32:23 PM »
I remember those days with NWTF where the local money was over 50%.  It dropped quite a bit after I left their payroll, and I'm not sure where it is now.  I do know that back then they had multi million dollar building fund, and that didn't help.  I'm not sure with all of the groups, but am aware of SCI and PF working on the 70/30 plan.
I wish we were on that same level with the local money, but right now we are run on this scale:  The local chapter gets 30% right off the top that is earmarked for them specifically.  Unfortunately not like SCI, but that number isn't a good representation of where the money is spent, either.  I'll give you a couple examples of what I mean. 
One I mentioned the other day is Idaho state.  In 2011-2012, there were two chapters in Idaho which raised about $50 total for those years, in net dollars, not just chapter funds, but all net dollars.  MDF spent over $112,000 in those same two years in Idaho on projects including a highway underpass.
A second example, here in WA is with the new Lewis & Clark chapter.  They started their chapter to support the Archery in the Schools program locally.  After their first banquet, which was a great event to start off the chapter, they wanted to spend their Chapter Rewards on archery gear for the program.  Instead, our youth coordinator wrote them a check for $3500 to pay for the gear.  That money came from part of the 70% that does not stay with the chapter.  So they were still able to use their chapter rewards for habitat and education.
We list our IRS forms right on our website muledeer.org, so you can see every dime and where it is spent with MDF.  We can honestly claim that 91% of our net dollars goes directly towards mission accomplishment.  I hope to see the local chapter rewards amount increase in the future as the organization grows.  Although we are 26 years old, we really are still a grass roots organization in it's infancy.  For a lot of years, MDF was satisfied to just maintain it's "status quo", without much growth.  That meant that we didn't raise a lot of money, so a good chunk went to just cover expenses.  As we are in the middle of a growth spurt now, we will be able to increase our dollars on ground, because we are not growing our office, just our revenue.
I wish I could have gotten in touch with you yesterday.  I was in Colville last night for an "Eyes in the Woods" training, which the MDF is sponsoring all over WA.  I'd be happy to sit down with you over coffee and show you some specifics on our numbers, where we are spending our money, and how we work.  That also goes for anyone else who wants to know more about the MDF.  I firmly believe that absolute transparency needs to be there, so no one needs to question how we do business.  It should be very easy to see so folks know they can trust us in what we are doing.  Those of you that know me know I'll be the first to bring it to the attention of MDF if things aren't being laid out in the open for all to see.
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Offline MuleDeer

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #99 on: July 25, 2014, 11:42:06 PM »
I know some of you will be disappointed with the numbers I gave, and I am also.  I ride that fine line of lobbying for change, but not pushing so hard that they decide they're better off without my "great ideas"!
I know there has been some talk of fundraising for some specific things, like the fires this year and the habitat that needs to be replaced.  This is where we can make a lot more difference.  Through a Conservation Partnership donation, the money can be restricted to only be used on exactly what it is donated for...no marketing, salaries, expenses, etc.  the office has the ability to retain up to 10% (usually less) for administration, but at least 90% is guaranteed for that project donated to.
That is why I would suggest donations to go to one fund, then put in under a Conservation Partnership for habitat in N Central WA.  The banquets are our bread and butter, and serve an excellent purpose for many reasons besides fund raising, but we can focus more $ with a CP, and get more done quicker.  Just a note so you all can see a little better how we operate.
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #100 on: July 25, 2014, 11:49:44 PM »
The last year that I was heavily involved with an NWTF banquet 3% stayed with our chapter and 97% went to national, with the regional NWTF Director. I have been told NWTF is trying to rebuild and correct certain things, you probably know more than I do about that. Obviously NWTF has been good for turkey hunting and I am glad about that, I do still support them.

Back to topic, thanks for the transparency regarding MDF, that's exactly the kind of info that people need to know so they can decide to join or not. THANKS

I like the idea of the CP donation for the fire zone. I have provided support to the MDF in the past and will again, we need these organizations, especially one that puts 90-91% back into wildlife.

We will get together again when our schedules coincide.  :tup:
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Offline mtman

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #101 on: July 26, 2014, 06:23:03 AM »
That kinda sucks that as a chapter all the money you earn doesn't stay to benefit areas you can afford to hunt like your state. I am a member of mdf and would like to see that change. It seems like the government when I hear that. Get the money and spend it were they see fit. Thanks for the info Im glad to hear you don't agree with that either.


Offline MuleDeer

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #102 on: July 26, 2014, 09:39:23 PM »
I would encourage any of you that have a free minute or two to go to our website and check out our IRS 990 forms.  They show where every cent of our money is spent, and it will help you to understand how we operate.  We won't hide anything, so if there is something you want to know, if I don't have the answer, I'll get it for you.  We are forming new partnerships often, like the Master Stewardship Agreement we recently signed with the Forest Service in this region.  It will enable us to procure more dollars, based on timber sales, for mgmt. of Mule Deer, and other partnerships we are getting with local companies, like energy companies and mining industry folks.
BTW, just got an email today about a meeting I will be attending on Tuesday about the Methow fires.  This meeting is to discuss strategy, teaming up to tackle the issues, etc.  Those invited are: MDF, Colville Confederated Tribes, Methow Salmon Recovery Foundation, Okanogan Conservation District, Okanogan County, Okanogan County Cattleman, Okanogan County Farm Bureau, O.C. Health District, O.C. Horticulture Association, O.C. Noxious Weed Board, O.C. PUD, Trout Unlimited, Upper Columbia Salmon Recovery Board, USDA Forest Service, NRCS, Bureau of Reclamation, US Fish and Wildlife Service, WA State Conservation Commission, WA State Dept of Agriculture, WA State Dept of Ecology, WDFW, WA DNR, WA State, University Cooperative Extension, and the Yakama Nation.
As you can see, they have invited basically everyone.  This will be a great time for MDF to stress the importance of restoring the habitat for the herds, and offering ourselves to accomplish these goals, as well as form some partnerships with like-minded groups.  I will make sure and post some results of the meeting so you all are in the loop on how things are progressing.
"We didn't inherit this earth from our fore fathers, we're borrowing it from our children."

Offline kevinlisa06

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Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #103 on: July 26, 2014, 10:08:55 PM »
Good luck to ya Dan! Looks like you are doing good hope to meet up with ya someday soon again. Kevin


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Offline MuleDeer

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Re: Mule Deer Initiative for WA State
« Reply #104 on: July 27, 2014, 10:44:22 PM »
Thanks Kevin; it's almost like an old family reunion on this site!  I'll keep you all posted on how things move along, especially what the plan looks like after the meeting this Tuesday.
"We didn't inherit this earth from our fore fathers, we're borrowing it from our children."

 


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