How should we manage our Mule Deer in WA?

[nwwanderer]

Looking back on 40 plus years of watching mule deer on our place, it is not a simple issue.  Where we would usually see 100+ when public grazing was more than double what it is today, cats, bears, coyotes were actively taken and wolves were not in the equation we thought things were 'normal'.  In the low mule deer years, whitetail were expanding out of the bottoms, we would see more black bear than mule deer and public grazing policy had turned great summer range into mountain maple and ninebark.  Today mule deer numbers are kinda holding there own at moderate numbers no thanks to better grazing management or low predator numbers.  As the private owners of grazing land better utilize and manage (actively control predators) the private grazing land the mule deer seem to take advantage.
This is an unusual area that ajoins more than 400,000 acres that is never hunted for mule deer.  Hunting and road kill can not be blamed for low muley populations.  I do not have a simple solution but have seen changes and expect to see more. 

[bearpaw]

Glad to see I stirred the hornet's nest...
KF, the grazing issue I'm talking about has nothing to do with responsible grazing practices.  It's the un-responsible grazing that cause a huge loss of habitat.  That's not public opinion, it is backed up by scientific studies on the habitat.  The increase in yield I spoke of?  Growing plants and forage that produces twice the yield on the same amount of land.  That means effective grazing (as it may stand now under a current contract) could be done on 1/2 the land than traditionally needed.  I have nothing against cattlemen at all; it's a great way of life that's been around as long as we've lived in this country.
As for predators, I never said they weren't an issue, and said prior that the MDF FULLY  supports the mgmt. of predators.  But saying that all we need to do is not kill does, and kill more predators to solve the problem isn't the answer.  Part of the answer? Yes.  But we need to look at EVERY issue that is affecting Mule Deer, not get tunnel-vision and miss something else that is important to their success.  With the writing of this MDI, we can at least make those issues visible, leaving the opportunity to try and correct them, if need be.
Personally, I agree with almost every comment on here so far.  But I for one want to make sure that we don't miss anything while we have this chance, so keep your comments coming, even if you don't agree with me and I don't agree with you.  That's what will make this a very well-rounded discussion!

Ah, you're talking about private lands grazing.   There for a bit I thought you were rallying for taking cattle off public lands. 
I agree increasing forage and rotational grazing is good and you can support more cattle on less land.


As for getting some kind of permit to grow forage on public lands to increase yield?... I don't see that ever flying.  I can just imagine some rancher out spreading metal based fertilizer and seed all over the national forest 


Here's one for you to ponder:

These last couple of years I've see that cattle are only using a fraction of their grazing allotments,  they're huddling up around the chutes and over graze about 1/2 mile circle around the chutes..hrm..why is that?

Wolves

There is almost a line the cattle won't cross, down low the grass is pulled to the nubs but as you get further from the chutes and further from human activity the grass goes to nearly 4-5 tall and no sign of cattle utilizing it. (or anything else for that matter)  This is with the ranchers pushing the cattle to the taller unused grass DAILY - with horses,  by evening the cattle are huddled around the chutes again.  They're not putting on weight either.

So the anti-grazers are getting their wish through their most effective tool yet - wolves.   
I think we can leave grazing alone in the MDF plans MuleDeer,  the wolves are taking care of that issue.



edit:  As a side note what worries the heck out of me is some anti-grazing person sees the severe over grazing near those cattle chutes and uses that to condemn grazing - and wins.
Even though historically that area was capable of grazing out xx number of cattle, now it can only graze a small fraction of that because the cattle won't disperse properly throughout the grazing allotment.

On top of this the wolf groups are pushing the WDFW to make the cattlemen agree to keep the cattle in bunched up groups, exactly opposite of the USFS wanting the cattle broken up to prevent over grazing.

[bearpaw]

Rather than talk without supporting facts or data, I would like to provide a few points with supporting data:

The cougar predation numbers are not my numbers. The numbers were arrived at by studies conducted by F&G biologists across the west, including Washington. Here are two sources:

California Study: https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.ashx?DocumentID=27635

The number of prey killed per cougar varies with the number and age of dependent young (Ackerman et al. 1986), season (Ross et al. 1997, Hayes et al. 2000), nutritional condition of the prey (Logan and Sweanor 2001), competition from other predators (Kunkel et al. 1999), and usurpation of kills by scavengers (Harrison 1990). Using an energetics model, Ackerman et al. (1986) estimated that an adult male cougar kills 1 deer every 8 to 11 days, an adult female without kittens every 14 to 17 days, and a female with 3 juveniles every 3.3 days. Connolly (1949) reported that an adult cougar killed 1 deer every 9.7 days during winter. Predation rates on bighorn sheep and mule deer by females with kittens averaged 1 animal every 3-8 days
(Harrison 1990). Beier et al. (1995) estimated that each cougar kills about 48 large mammals and 58 small mammals per year.

Washington study: http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2193/2007-060?journalCode=wild

The mean annual kill interval of 6.68 days between kills varied little by season (winter = 7.0 days/kill, summer = 6.6 days/kill; P = 0.78) or prey species (white-tailed deer = 7.0 days/kill, mule deer = 6.1 days/kill; P = 0.58).

I simply did the math for the number of cougars that WDFW says we had a few decades ago verses the number of cougars WDFW says we have now by using commonly known and accepted cougar predation numbers.

grundy53 is correct, there are three species of deer involved, I do not claim that the cougar predation is only on mule deer. Rather, I will tell you by my personal experiences at finding deer kills, cougar prefer mule deer when they are present, I will also quote WSU professor Wielgus who is responsible for current cougar management in Washington:

https://www.wildlifemanagementinstitute.org/PDF/4-Effects%20of%20WhiteTailed....pdf

white-tailed deer were historically rare in Washington, but now comprise 73 percent of deer in the Selkirk Mountains, 82 percent of deer in Kettle Falls, 56 percent of deer in Republic

Cougar predation rates were 17 percent on mule deer and 9 percent on white-tailed deer. As a result of this disparate predation, white-tailed deer were increasing at 2 percent per year, but mule deer were decreasing at 12 percent per year.

Additionally some cougar predation occurs on elk, moose, caribou, goats, and bighorn sheep so that also reduces the total number of deer eaten. The scary part is that now we have another large predator infiltrating WA, wolves, which have essentially the same impact as cougars requiring roughly the same number of prey animals per year per wolf, but wolves commonly run in packs of 4 to 16 animals so the impacts could become much greater when wolves become fully established.

Idaho has liberalized cougar and bear hunting by offering extended seasons and two animal limits. This could reduce overall predator numbers to make up for the additional impact of wolves. Given WDFW's love affair with all predators, what will WDFW do to make room for the additional wolf impacts?

This is much more realistic...17% cougar predation on 90k mule deer which is about 15000 mule deer per year...I would buy those numbers.

Please add to that the predation and losses from coyotes, bear, bobcats, wolves, feral dogs, autos, etc. Now can you understand why we need predator control?

[bearpaw]

I definitely think we need to explore some less liberal hunting seasons on muleys...particularly in the se.  After the mf season it seems like a lot of buck:doe ratios get pretty lopsided.  In open/semi-open country they seem to be fairly vulnerable...particularly with the big increase in long range shooting.

If predator impacts are minimized seasons for humans should not need to be further reduced. In many areas humans are not hunting fawns, does, and are only hunting 3 pt or better bucks. The only segment of the mule deer population being hunted by humans are mature bucks, yet the populations continue to decline. Please open your eyes, the predator impacts cannot be ignored if we hope to recover mule deer populations. You are selling out to the anti predator hunting forces in this state.

[idahohuntr]

I definitely think we need to explore some less liberal hunting seasons on muleys...particularly in the se.  After the mf season it seems like a lot of buck:doe ratios get pretty lopsided.  In open/semi-open country they seem to be fairly vulnerable...particularly with the big increase in long range shooting.

If predator impacts are minimized seasons for humans should not need to be further reduced. In many areas humans are not hunting fawns, does, and are only hunting 3 pt or better bucks. The only segment of the mule deer population being hunted by humans are mature bucks, yet the populations continue to decline. Please open your eyes, the predator impacts cannot be ignored if we hope to recover mule deer populations. You are selling out to the anti predator hunting forces in this state.

I don't dispute that cougars kill deer, and my observations align with yours regarding their selection for muley's, I just don't think the primary factor in mule deer declines across the west is because of cougars...or any other predators.  My point is not to ignore any of the numerous factors limiting ungulates and that is why I find your earlier numbers of 100,000-200,000 a bit problematic...if you were right then basically mule deer only die from cougars which misleads hunters about what needs to be done...it is a fallacy, at least in se wa, to suggest that us hunters can just go about with our otc tags and long range rifles and killy tons of bucks every year if we could just reduce the cougar population...that is complete baloney and your numbers that I questioned earlier paint that picture.  I have seen very similar declines in mule deer in areas I've hunted in Idaho where plenty of cougars get harvested by hound hunters.  Although my dad just told me he has been seeing more mule deer at one of his properties in NC Idaho than anytime he can recall in the last 7-10 years 

[bearpaw]

I definitely think we need to explore some less liberal hunting seasons on muleys...particularly in the se.  After the mf season it seems like a lot of buck:doe ratios get pretty lopsided.  In open/semi-open country they seem to be fairly vulnerable...particularly with the big increase in long range shooting.

If predator impacts are minimized seasons for humans should not need to be further reduced. In many areas humans are not hunting fawns, does, and are only hunting 3 pt or better bucks. The only segment of the mule deer population being hunted by humans are mature bucks, yet the populations continue to decline. Please open your eyes, the predator impacts cannot be ignored if we hope to recover mule deer populations. You are selling out to the anti predator hunting forces in this state.

I don't dispute that cougars kill deer, and my observations align with yours regarding their selection for muley's, I just don't think the primary factor in mule deer declines across the west is because of cougars...or any other predators.  My point is not to ignore any of the numerous factors limiting ungulates and that is why I find your earlier numbers of 100,000-200,000 a bit problematic...if you were right then basically mule deer only die from cougars which misleads hunters about what needs to be done...it is a fallacy, at least in se wa, to suggest that us hunters can just go about with our otc tags and long range rifles and killy tons of bucks every year if we could just reduce the cougar population...that is complete baloney and your numbers that I questioned earlier paint that picture.  I have seen very similar declines in mule deer in areas I've hunted in Idaho where plenty of cougars get harvested by hound hunters.  Although my dad just told me he has been seeing more mule deer at one of his properties in NC Idaho than anytime he can recall in the last 7-10 years 

Perhaps you do need less hunting opportunity for humans in the blues, I do not have experience in that area so cannot say? 

In northeast WA we do not hunt any mule deer fawns or does in any season, only 3 pt or better bucks can be harvested ever (except in tribal hunting areas). Therefore hunting season impact in NE Washington causes little reduction on the mule deer herd numbers because we are not taking any of the fawns or reproductive does.  NO SEASON AT ALL! Yet the mule deer population continues to decline in all areas just as much as in areas hunted by the tribes. How can that be?

Mule Deer in NE WA are in a predator pit, the predator impacts are so great the herd cannot reproduce enough fawns that survive to recruit into the herd to grow the herd. The legal human hunting factor on herd growth has already been eliminated from NE WA. It doesn't matter if we completely quit hunting 3 pt or better bucks, the herd size has not grown and will not grow because the predators are eating more deer than are surviving and being recruited into the herd. Remember, humans have no hunting season on fawns or does in all of NE WA (except areas hunted by the tribes). If predators weren't the problem this herd would already be growing. 

[bearpaw]

I find your earlier numbers of 100,000-200,000 a bit problematic

I have verified those predation levels with documentation from F&G studies in several states including WA. (please see my previous posts) Of course as I have already said, some of that impact no doubt occurs on whitetail, blacktail, moose, bighorn, goat, and elk, but the cougars are eating that amount of meat! For you to continue to deny this is simply ________________!

[bearpaw]

Some biologists and unknowing hunters want to kill off the whitetails so there aren't enough whitetails to feed our overly abundant cougar and other predator populations. Well that certainly might lower the cougar population if half of them starve to death because there aren't enough mule deer to feed them all. Then with the mule deer in further decline since there are no whitetails for the cougar to eat, maybe we better just shut down most deer hunting! 

How About This:

We kill half the cougars and reduce the predator impact on all species, then the herds can grow and get us out of this predator pit. When there are more ungulates we can support more hunting and predators. WOW PROBLEM ON THE WAY TO BEING SOLVED!

OH I KNOW, habitat.....

When we have too many deer on the winter range that will become a more important factor, right now it's not a factor because you can hardly find a mule deer in NE WA on the existing winter range, and we do still have a lot of winter range here. I am not opposed and fully encourage working to improve habitat, but I am not so silly as to say predators are not having a severe impact and I don't need to conduct a million dollar study to see it.

This provides some very good insight into a deer population that is controlled by cougars!

http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publications/Popular/mtnlions.html

Predators and Prey—A Case of Imbalance Mountain Lions and the North Kings Deer Herd

Predators are usually considered to be beneficial to ungulate populations by keeping animal numbers in balance with the habitat and removing the weak and old individuals. It is also often said that:
 o predators cannot control a healthy deer population, and
 o predator numbers are controlled by the prey population size.

According to Don Neal, a research scientist with the Forest Service, Pacific Southwest Forest and Range Experiment Station (PSW) (now retired), stationed in Fresno, California, a recent cooperative study by PSW and the California Department of Fish and Game has shed light on a situation where these theories appear to break down. In the study area on the west slope of the Sierra Nevada, apparently mountain lion numbers have increased while deer numbers declined to about one-eighth their peak numbers in the 1950s. Neal, along with George Steger (also with PSW), studied the California mule deer in the Sierra Nevada from 1970 to 1985 as part of an interagency effort to reverse the decline. This effort showed that the decline was primarily due to loss of fawns during the first 6-8 months of life.

The focus of the study was the North Kings deer here, a population of California mule deer. This herd declined from an estimated 17,000 animals in 1950 to about 2,000 animals in 1988. While the initiation of the decline was probably a result of overpopulation in the 1940s and 1950s, the lack of recovery seems to be related to heavy predation.

Fawn survival a problem
All the fawns were healthy at time of capture, and their size and weight were comparable to those of fawns from other mule deer herds. During the 7 years of the study, fawn survival ranged from 13% to 42% and averaged 38%. Two percent were killed in accidents, 9% died from disease or birth defects, and predators were responsible for the deaths of 51% of the fawns. Of those taken by predators 3% were killed by bobcats, 22% by bears, 27% by coyotes, and 49% by mountain lions.

Adult deer are being killed also
To estimate the effect of mountain lions on adult deer, Ron Bertram and his coworkers with the California Department of Fish and Game radio equipped 25 adult does. Their work revealed that a sizeable number of does were being killed by mountail lions in the central Sierra Nevada. Of 25 does radio equipped over a period of 3 years, 12 have died. One was killed by a coyote and 11 by mountain lions.

The bottom line
The bottom line is that in the study area, mountain lions appear to be controlling an already depressed deer herd, and they are apparently not benefiting the population by taking only the weak and old. The density of the lion population is not limited by the need for exclusive territories, and reproduction is continuing within this high-density population.
The magnitude of the problem can be understood when we consider that the ratio of deer to mountain lions has apparently declined from an estimated 750:1 in 1950 to about 30:l in 1988. Deer populations cannot meet the needs of the mountain lions and maintain their numbers with the heavy predation that these ratios bring. This is especcially true when you consider the additional predation from coyotes, bears, and bobcats.

Livestock losses to mountain lions have become a serious concern of this team. The number of permits to take mountain lions that are killing livestock reached an all-time high in 1988, with 145 issued and 62 lions taken. Neal, Steger, and Bertram expect livestock predation to continue at a high level or even increase, and deer to continue to decline in all but the most favorable years.

[idahohuntr]

How About This:

We kill half the cougars and reduce the predator impact on all species, then the herds can grow and get us out of this predator pit. When there are more ungulates we can support more hunting and predators. WOW PROBLEM ON THE WAY TO BEING SOLVED!

How do we increase the cougar harvest that much?  Is that realistic in NE Wa without hounds? 

[idahohuntr]

as for you Idaho, I cant quite figure you out,you are a mystery and a different bird for sure! dont really know what your agenda is?(idahohunter that is!)....as always,just my 

I'll save you a whole bunch of time...I don't have an agenda. 

[bearpaw]

How About This:

We kill half the cougars and reduce the predator impact on all species, then the herds can grow and get us out of this predator pit. When there are more ungulates we can support more hunting and predators. WOW PROBLEM ON THE WAY TO BEING SOLVED!

How do we increase the cougar harvest that much?  Is that realistic in NE Wa without hounds?

Double or triple the quota, increase the seasons as needed to get the quotas filled or close to it. I think we will get cougars reduced in numbers without hounds. I know one guy who has walked down 3 cougars here by walking their tracks. I can find 5 to 10 fresh cougar tracks daily in the winter, I could find guys that want to try walking them. Can also call them or look for kills to set stands above. We saw 7 cougars this spring during turkey season, 6 out of 7 could have been easily shot. Have you seen all the cougar problems right around Spokane, never used to be hardly any cats that close in?

[grundy53]

How About This:

We kill half the cougars and reduce the predator impact on all species, then the herds can grow and get us out of this predator pit. When there are more ungulates we can support more hunting and predators. WOW PROBLEM ON THE WAY TO BEING SOLVED!

How do we increase the cougar harvest that much?  Is that realistic in NE Wa without hounds?

Double or triple the quota, increase the seasons as needed to get the quotas filled or close to it. I think we will get cougars reduced in numbers without hounds. I know one guy who has walked down 3 cougars here by walking their tracks. I can find 5 to 10 fresh cougar tracks daily in the winter, I could find guys that want to try walking them. Can also call them or look for kills to set stands above. We saw 7 cougars this spring during turkey season, 6 out of 7 could have been easily shot. Have you seen all the cougar problems right around Spokane, never used to be hardly any cats that close in?

  Year round season and multiple tags.

[huntnphool]

How About This:

We kill half the cougars and reduce the predator impact on all species, then the herds can grow and get us out of this predator pit.

 Can't do that Dale, remember the WSU professor said we have a cougar problem because we have been killing too many as it is, no way will WDFW increase the harvest allocation.

[bearpaw]

How About This:

We kill half the cougars and reduce the predator impact on all species, then the herds can grow and get us out of this predator pit.

 Can't do that Dale, remember the WSU professor said we have a cougar problem because we have been killing too many as it is, no way will WDFW increase the harvest allocation.

Currently Professor Wielgus management strategy does not seem to be working too well for people around Spokane who's animals are getting eaten. Last winter WDFW also had to issue special hound permits for other problem cats in Ione and Newport. Remember the White family shooting 4 different cats in their yard in the Methow last winter. Sooner or later if we keep the pressure on WDFW may see the light and end this madness! 

We must keep pounding away with the message.

[huntnnw]

I would say black bears are a far greater impact on mule deer fawns in NE WA. The bear population is out of control up here! Not a good sign when you see more bears and sign of bears than deer! Been like this for over 20 years great deer country and its void of deer and full of bears