Save Our Elk - Examining antler deformities, lungworms, copper deficiencies, etc

[idahohuntr]

...but thank you for supporting those that have decided to not just accept what the expert panel says as gospel. 

Oh, I agree. For example, I don't accept what the hoof rot panel says because they are an independent panel of experts in wildlife and veterinary issues in Washington State...I accept what they say because they use best available science, logic, and facts to support their conclusions...unlike their critics who use lies, emotions, misleading statements, and half-truths to bolster their arguments.  But certainly, if two people are debating an issue and one of them tells you what degrees they have...I could care less. 

[t6]

So you think that the eastern ag fields are the same as western timberlands?   Interesting...... stupid but interesting thought.      

As far as my being in Seattle.... nope.... hate the place. 

How about we get a moratorium on herbicides for ten years and see if the animals begin to recover.  Its only taken 20 years to watch, wait, and see that WDFW's approach to the "Hoof Rot" has only allowed it to spread. 

[luvtohnt]

Brandon.... Im not sure your serious or not.  Atrazine even if its not labeled as such is one of the favorite chemicals of the timber companies and DNR.  The commonly use the trade names for the chemicals sprayed when posting the area.   Additionally much of the information has been compiled by Jon Gosh and can be found on his site. jongosch.com     

You can also look at studies done by different Universities showing the effects of Atrazine.  A simple wikipedia search can give you some kind of idea and may start your search off this site.

A chemical has to be used according to their label. I did look at the link you provided, and saw that the atrazine (at least the labels I had time to read) are for forestry use. Thanks for providing that info. I will stick to peer reviewed articles rather than Wikipedia for science. I will spend some time looking for info and see if my curiosity will be satisfied.

Brandon

[Coastal_native]

...but thank you for supporting those that have decided to not just accept what the expert panel says as gospel. 

Oh, I agree. For example, I don't accept what the hoof rot panel says because they are an independent panel of experts in wildlife and veterinary issues in Washington State...I accept what they say because they use best available science, logic, and facts to support their conclusions...unlike their critics who use lies, emotions, misleading statements, and half-truths to bolster their arguments.  But certainly, if two people are debating an issue and one of them tells you what degrees they have...I could care less.

In reality, I'm somewhat on the fence on this issue.  I don't subscribe to a singular explanation.  Regardless of whether herbicides have any role in it, I'm not a big fan of them.  I'm sure the experts are working diligently trying to find answers and I'm sure they are all competent, however I'm not sure that they are all unbiased, motivated, or even really care about the impacts this disease is having on hunting opportunity.  I have no problem at all with people questioning their work or conducting their own independent research.  If anything, it keeps the experts on their toes and prevents them from developing tunnel vision.  I don't understand why you have such a problem with it.  You mentioned that it creates a distraction and interrupts them from getting their work done, but you haven't quantified that at all.  I think that's an overstatement.  They have a duty to respond to public comments and questions.  Lastly, if your intention in these threads is partly to prevent laypeople from drinking jongosch's coolaid, then you've failed miserably.  It probably has something to do with those little passive aggressive chuckle face emoticons.  At least for me it does.

[jasnt]

So you think that the eastern ag fields are the same as western timberlands?   Interesting...... stupid but interesting thought.      

As far as my being in Seattle.... nope.... hate the place. 

How about we get a moratorium on herbicides for ten years and see if the animals begin to recover.  Its only taken 20 years to watch, wait, and see that WDFW's approach to the "Hoof Rot" has only allowed it to spread. 

Definitely not the same chemicals used in forestry and agriculture!
I agree that not using these chemicals for a period of time would answer alot of questions. 

[Special T]

...but thank you for supporting those that have decided to not just accept what the expert panel says as gospel. 

Oh, I agree. For example, I don't accept what the hoof rot panel says because they are an independent panel of experts in wildlife and veterinary issues in Washington State...I accept what they say because they use best available science, logic, and facts to support their conclusions...unlike their critics who use lies, emotions, misleading statements, and half-truths to bolster their arguments.  But certainly, if two people are debating an issue and one of them tells you what degrees they have...I could care less.

In reality, I'm somewhat on the fence on this issue.  I don't subscribe to a singular explanation.  Regardless of whether herbicides have any role in it, I'm not a big fan of them.  I'm sure the experts are working diligently trying to find answers and I'm sure they are all competent, however I'm not sure that they are all unbiased, motivated, or even really care about the impacts this disease is having on hunting opportunity.  I have no problem at all with people questioning their work or conducting their own independent research.  If anything, it keeps the experts on their toes and prevents them from developing tunnel vision.  I don't understand why you have such a problem with it.  You mentioned that it creates a distraction and interrupts them from getting their work done, but you haven't quantified that at all.  I think that's an overstatement.  They have a duty to respond to public comments and questions.  Lastly, if your intention in these threads is partly to prevent laypeople from drinking jongosch's coolaid, then you've failed miserably.  It probably has something to do with those little passive aggressive chuckle face emoticons.  At least for me it does.

Isn't part of the "Scientific method" constantanly questioning and challenging the "accepted" theory? THAT is supposted to either support the theory or lead us to better understanding right....

[idahohuntr]

In reality, I'm somewhat on the fence on this issue.  I don't subscribe to a singular explanation.  Regardless of whether herbicides have any role in it, I'm not a big fan of them.  I'm sure the experts are working diligently trying to find answers and I'm sure they are all competent, however I'm not sure that they are all unbiased, motivated, or even really care about the impacts this disease is having on hunting opportunity. 

I agree with most of this...except the part about that panel not caring about the impacts of the disease.

I have no problem at all with people questioning their work or conducting their own independent research.  If anything, it keeps the experts on their toes and prevents them from developing tunnel vision.  I don't understand why you have such a problem with it.  You mentioned that it creates a distraction and interrupts them from getting their work done, but you haven't quantified that at all.  I think that's an overstatement.  They have a duty to respond to public comments and questions. 

I have no problem at all with people thinking on their own or outside the box and questioning experts in the field...but when a panel of 16? experts says, NO, it is not Leptisporosis and NO there is not a shred of evidence of toxicity and those same critics then resort to odd/absurd things to try and justify their position that I think we have gone past good productive communication/debate.  I have spoken with wdfw staff working hard to solve this complex problem, and yes, they have admitted that some of the more absurd accusations and grandstanding has taken staff time that could be better spent elsewhere...they feel they heard the comment, addressed it thoroughly, and it was time to move on...however, vocal critics continued, without a shred of evidence forcing those same staff to respond in multiple forums...time that could have been better spent elsewhere.  At one point WDFW was considering bringing in another independently appointed panel of experts from the National Academy of Sciences to review their work on this issue to try and appease a minority...I hope they are still not considering that...what a huge waste of time and money that would be.    But that is fine if you think it is an overstatement.  Have you talked to WDFW staff trying to solve this problem?

Lastly, if your intention in these threads is partly to prevent laypeople from drinking jongosch's coolaid, then you've failed miserably.  It probably has something to do with those little passive aggressive chuckle face emoticons.  At least for me it does.

Why are you referring to forum members as laypeople?  Are you suggesting we are not as smart as you?  These threads are an opportunity to discuss a range of wildlife issues, if you want to believe someone else because I used a smiley face that is absolutely your perogative.  I am not some political candidate trying to garner votes or win the HS popularity contest...but just like other public forums I do think its important that more than one side gets discussed, so when a thread just continues to push one-sided information or unnecessarily bashes an agency that is critical to hunters...I usually speak up.

[Special T]

I think what he is trying to imply is generic Joe 6 pack... People who are not "professionals" in the chemical field. Some times you don't have to be an expert to see the results of some actions.... Coastal is not in the chemical or fertilizer business. 

[Bob33]

Isn't part of the "Scientific method" constantanly questioning and challenging the "accepted" theory? THAT is supposted to either support the theory or lead us to better understanding right....

If your car won’t start and you call AAA, and they tell you it won’t start because your tabs are expired, at what point do you start to question their “scientific method”?

[Special T]

 
While i appreciate the comparison Im not sure it correlates so well...

My self im not really sold on either side of the issue. I see some merrits to both sides of the argument.

I would not be surprised if there was some kind of  STRONG Correlation between the chemicles and hoof/horn problems. I also realize that Correlation is much easier to prove than CAUSE.

[Coastal_native]

Why are you referring to forum members as laypeople?  Are you suggesting we are not as smart as you? 

In the context of this discussion (i.e. trying to understand the causes of hoof rot) the majority of us are likely laypeople, myself included.  We're not biologists, chemists, vets, or any other kind of subject matter expert (although I would argue that observation is a form of science...and experienced outdoorsman have plenty of them). 

I have not tried talking to WDFW staff (for fear of interrupting them from solving the hoof rot problem), but I think any time spent addressing the concerns of the public is time well spent, especially in that line of work.  If you were to ask some of the forum members, they'd probably say that time doesn't even seem to be an issue to the WDFW. 

[JimmyHoffa]

Isn't part of the "Scientific method" constantanly questioning and challenging the "accepted" theory? THAT is supposted to either support the theory or lead us to better understanding right....

If your car won’t start and you call AAA, and they tell you it won’t start because your tabs are expired, at what point do you start to question their “scientific method”?

I would guess that one day, somewhere, that intrusive government coupled with all this technology will have a system where they can disable your car remotely when you don't pay your tabs. 

[t6]

Luvtohnt....

You believe that just because a sprayer is licensed that they would then automatically spray in accordance of the law or within the manufactures recommendations?   

Who oversees these applicators to ensure this?   I asked the same question of DNR representative.   

The reality is that there is ABSOLUTELY NO OVERSIGHT BY ANYONE.  Its simply on the honor system.  There is no oversight by the State in any way.  There is no documentation by the state to show that they have ever verified the chemicals were properly sprayed. 

If I asked you for money and promised to spend it on good causes..... would you give me any without asking for a receipt?  Probably not.