sidelocks

[leon grey]

it seems that evryone has muzzeloaders that are just like a  boltaction rifle the whole reason was to use side lock open hawken style rifles now its a waste of time to even try any more 5 years in a row havent got a cow anything going back to modernfirearms for elk maby its just bad luck or not in the rightplace at the right time

[Woodchuck]

No matter the style of the rifle, they still all have to have an "exposed" primer. 

[Skillet]

I am not getting how somebody else having a bolt on their muzzleloader has anything to do with no elk for you over the last five years   

[leon grey]

same here i have trad 54 and cva 50 hawken style use 777 powder and goex

[leon grey]

nothing thats just my own lazynes or not nowing how to to hunt or whatever idont know what im doing wrong 

[Woodchuck]

Hang in there. It can take a long time to work into a new craft. It will come together for you at some point and all the frustration will seem worth it.

[Skillet]

Don't let it get to you.  I muzzleloader hunt with an old T/C Hawken myself.  Only use loose powder and have tried sabots, but I like the cast boolits the best. 
There's a LOT of guys on here that go a lot longer than you have before connecting - keep at it and make sure you're hunting the elk where they are, not where they should be.

[boneaddict]

I'm with you skillet.   Cast bullets, powder horn, exposed cap.   20 pound hawg rifle.  Folks will eventually out primitive their seasons, though they will point blame everywhere else.   Same with archery.

[CP]

I gave up on the sidelock about 5 years ago.  It just seemed to get a little heavier and harder to lug around every year.

[Jonathan_S]

OP, stick in there.  It's a short season, don't fall into a trap of blaming circumstances and other people.  The MZ success reflect that it is actually a good season relatively speaking.



Bone, do you think that there should be a "Primitive Weapons" season?

Here's my position on this topic for anyone interested.

If someone wants to deliberately use antiquated technology, they obviously do it for one or more of a few reasons.  i.e. they are more comfortable with it or they enjoy the challenge.  These seem to be the more prevalent reasons.  It doesn't really give one the right to ask for their own season.  WDFW (in all it's infamy) says, "here are the seasons and legal methods..." and then somebody who uses their longbow can't kill anything and complains that the compounders are getting all the deer and shortening their seasons.  Ditto muzzleloaders.

I can't think of any other endeavor in the world where people limit their capabilities deliberately and then bemoan their disadvantaged experience.  Golfers don't use wooden clubs and say "hey this shouldn't be a Par 3!  Back in the old days, it was a Par 6 but these guys with their allow drivers ruined that for me"

I am certainly not pointing anyone out specifically but I just wanted your opinion since I figured it wouldn't come across as rabid.

[Skillet]

I'm with you skillet.   Cast bullets, powder horn, exposed cap.   20 pound hawg rifle.  Folks will eventually out primitive their seasons, though they will point blame everywhere else.   Same with archery.

Well, I'm not hard core enough to hunt with the powder horn...  taken to sneaking the speedloaders into my fringed leather possibles bag 
But I know what you're saying.

I can't think of any other endeavor in the world where people limit their capabilities deliberately and then bemoan their disadvantaged experience. 

Don't hang out much at the Mariner's games, do ya? 

[boneaddict]

That's a big ole debate I suppose Jonathan, even in my head.   I don't want to subdivide groups up any more than possible, yet I don't think I am blind to think we are out technologing our quarry to death.   There is nothing primitive about todays bows or the modern muzzleloader.    Touchy though.  Say something and holy moly    Elitist pig comes out.   It is only a matter of time though.

[Jonathan_S]

That's a big ole debate I suppose Jonathan, even in my head.   I don't want to subdivide groups up any more than possible, yet I don't think I am blind to think we are out technologing our quarry to death.   There is nothing primitive about todays bows or the modern muzzleloader.    Touchy though.  Say something and holy moly    Elitist pig comes out.   It is only a matter of time though.

I hear you.  It's a flammable topic for certain.

I'm with you skillet.   Cast bullets, powder horn, exposed cap.   20 pound hawg rifle.  Folks will eventually out primitive their seasons, though they will point blame everywhere else.   Same with archery.

Well, I'm not hard core enough to hunt with the powder horn...  taken to sneaking the speedloaders into my fringed leather possibles bag 
But I know what you're saying.

I can't think of any other endeavor in the world where people limit their capabilities deliberately and then bemoan their disadvantaged experience. 

Don't hang out much at the Mariner's games, do ya? 

That's funny right there!  The M's would definitely fit that description.

[Soady]

If one views the weapon of choice as a tool to harvest game in a humane and expeditious manner within the boundaries of the law why would we blame the tool for our failures or other peoples choices of that tool for our short comings as a hunters?

I have hunted with both primitive and modern inline muzzys. Primitives included the long plains Lyman's, the shorter Hawken carbine and the modern thumbhole Knight inline. Never once have I blamed the weapon I chose for my short comings much less felt I should dictate how or which weapon of choice others should use.

In addition I have shot many years of rendezvous when I first got into muzzleloading and I never dictated what weapon of choice others should use be 36 cal or 69 cal. The success ratio belongs in the hand of the hunter or shooter to become proficient to hone those skills and not blame our shortcomings or dictate which weapon is at fault for those shortcomings.

In my view I feel if the powder goes down the front followed by the bullet, the cap is exposed, and the sights are open, the rest is up to me as a hunter, shooter as I apply my skills.

The muzzleloader be it primitive or modern inline provides me with one choice, "one shot" the rest falls on my shoulders to be skilled enough to to utilize that one shot.
A choice I make willingly, absent of dictating what others should or should not do or which weapon to use. It is my choice to hunt in this manner using my weapon of choice as outlined in the regulations be it primitive or modern inline muzzleloader.

[RG]

I hunt with primitive, either one of two flintlocks I built or with a Lyman Great Plains percussion. I use round balls, load from a pouch and use Goex black powder.  That's my choice and I've never felt handicapped by my choice of weapon.  They've all killed game, elk and deer.  My partners carry inlines. That's their choice. No drama here about what's appropriate. Who cares as long as it's legal and it's used ethically.  Where I get darn irritated is when I see guys taking 200 or 300 yard muzzleloader shots at game and I know they don't have the skills to make a clean kill at that range but they also don't have the self discipline to pass.  Some guys practice and can make the shot, most can't.  Those guys belong in a modern season.

[C-Money]

I enjoy hunting with a Hawken style muzzle loader. Pennsylvania still has a flintlock only season. Have a good flint, and dry, clean rifle, and its amazing how fast a flintlock will light. Chaa-Boom!! OP, keep at it, ML hunting is a great sport, and a wonderful feeling to carry a side lock.

[oneshot12]

nothing wrong with any of the muzzle loader rifles out there these days  just really depends on the person that is shooting it .  sure lots of folks like the newer inlines  heck i have one and use it when it really nasty during late season . i do prefer the side lock  much more  just enjoy shooting it myself is all . taken all of my game the past ten  years with ether my custom 54 cal round ball shooter or my trade gun   . muzzle loader season  seems to be a good way to go here on the west side   seems like most folks would rather do modern hunting  .i do enjoy getting out in the woods and not having to worrie about running to some one while  walking about let alone hearing shoots being  fired all around the place   . also not have a ton of people fighting to get a camping spot or over camping  just makes the time in the woods no fun at all  .for the most part black powder shooter are much more friendly  and willing to be of help should the need arise  .so dont give up on it yet   just keep your eyes and ears open and talk with folks  i am sure you can fine some one that will be happy to tag along with ya or may be take you along with them   

[leon grey]

thats why i do it i like the chalenge of  black powder hunting  i apolgize to  inline hunters  if thats what they want to use  i just aways  liked the old ways

[RG]

thats why i do it i like the chalenge of  black powder hunting  i apolgize to  inline hunters  if thats what they want to use  i just aways  liked the old ways

What are you apologizing for?  There's a lot to be said for being a little "old school".  It isn't necessary to try to keep up with "bigger, faster, shinier, more expensive" unless that's what turns your crank in which case more power to you.  Enjoy the outdoors, do it your own way, and never apologize for that.  There's room for everybody.  And to the OP, you aren't alone, if you read the success rate stats only a couple people out of a hundred ever kill anything anyway.  Take the little woman to a nice resort before hunting season, thank her for her patience, do your own laundry and dishes when  you come home, she'll understand.

[JimmyHoffa]

I can see how/why the guys at the more primitive end of weapons choices would be a little concerned.  WDFW (theoretically) sets the season lengths based upon what they think is an allowable/fair(?) harvest percentage by each group.  I've heard they factor in the number of days/kill, then use overall number of hunters and animals to be harvested to figure out exactly how many days.  The difficulty in closing the distance to an animal increases the closer you try to get to that animal (in general terms).  Compare how difficult it is to get within 200 yds of an animal to within 100 yds to 80, 75, 65...40..25 yds.  A sidelock and user might be limited to 80 yds while the inline counterparts are at 150 yds.  If your odds of getting within 80 are lower than within 150, then the days/kill should be higher for the sidelocks (in general).  So, if more and more people use in-lines or a new in-line comes out that doubles range, then the days/kill should drop for the in-lines and show as a drop for all muzzleloaders.  Then WDFW basically has to recalculate season length to keep harvest total 'fair' with the other groups.  If the season length gets too short, it could in theory be just above the days/kill for an in-line and just below days/kill for the sidelocks.  Meaning the in-lines would have most of the harvest while the primitive guys are still trying to get on animals within their needed range just for a shot.

[oneshot12]

What are you apologizing for?  There's a lot to be said for bring a little "old school".  It isn't necessary to try to keep up with "bigger, faster, shinier, more expensive" unless that's what turns your crank in which case more pier to you.  Enjoy the outdoors, do it your own way, and never apologize for that.  There's room for everybody.  And to the OP, you aren't alone, if you read the success rate stats only a couple people our of a hundred ever kill anything anyway.  Take the little woman to a nice resort before hunting season, thank her for her patience, do your own laundry and dishes when  you come home, she'll understand.
[/quote]    I got to say your 100 % correct  RG  plenty of room for everyone
 

[Sabotloader]

thats why i do it i like the chalenge of  black powder hunting  i apolgize to  inline hunters  if thats what they want to use  i just aways  liked the old ways

When you get right down to it with the current Washington restrictions - they really is not that much difference in an inline and newer sidelock.  If comparing a flit lock to a inline even them there is a marginal difference

This my favorite Western Inline



And with the restrictions during ML season it relly is not more effective than this Renegade



Nor this old favorite

[MountainDevil54]

Not a lot of folks know how to hold a traditional rifle with the crestent butt plate and that tends to add flinching and man I gotta get a rubber pad!   

[RG]

Ha.  You learn pretty quick if you hold it wrong!  The crescent works fine when you put it where it is supposed to go, unless you have great big shoulders and biceps like one of my son in laws.  Then it still bites. That's not a problem I have.   

[CP]

Not a particularly efficient recoil pad:
 

[Harleysboss]

Man am I messed up...my side lock sports a GM fast twist barrel and I shoot real blackpowder (Goex) and load 460grn lead paper patched bullets. Not an inline not traditional Hmmmm.. The cow my son shot this year did not care at all. Oh ya my White rifle shoots the same powder and bullet combo..#11 cap too. We all have to shoot open sights and exposed ignition..we should all be more concerned with the lack of open hunting units that we as a  group do not have. Loads from the muzzle have a blast!

[Sabotloader]

I think you'll find that the lock time on that inline is decidedly faster than eityher of thse side locks, assuming they are unmodified.

Not sure of that the new locks I have gotten from TC lately do not have near the swing that the old ones did - they are much quicker.  There is still more movement on the new TC lock than the there is with the Knights.

But i do not understand how that is such a big deal anyway in the normal hunting situation - very few shots that I take require a quick lock time - most of the animals and are not moving at all or moving very slowly. Plus my max range with open sights is only 150 yards so lock time is not imperative...

[pat2bear]

I also hunt with the Hawkins. I did purchase a GM barrel for it over 10 years ago and shoot loose 777 and power belts and/or sabots depending on what state I'm in. I love it and in all reality I think it is just as accurate or better than some in lines. It is an anchor though.

[Soady]

Man am I messed up...my side lock sports a GM fast twist barrel and I shoot real blackpowder (Goex) and load 460grn lead paper patched bullets. Not an inline not traditional Hmmmm.. The cow my son shot this year did not care at all. Oh ya my White rifle shoots the same powder and bullet combo..#11 cap too. We all have to shoot open sights and exposed ignition..we should all be more concerned with the lack of open hunting units that we as a  group do not have. Loads from the muzzle have a blast!

I feel the same way. It all comes down to the moment we pull the trigger and now we need to unite and pull the trigger on getting some more units opened to muzzleloading.

[busterbrown]

I love Hawkens and Kentucky rifles. Have several of each, shoot only round ball. I usually use my 54 Hawkens for hunting, just love the history, challenge. Killed plenty of critters with these guns the last 25 years. Round ball, especially 54 or larger, get the job done, as long as you get close and make the shot count.

Nothing wrong with inline, just like the older, historically guns, real cool to shoot.

ML guys need to stick together to protect what few hunts we have.

[RG]

I love Hawkens and Kentucky rifles. Have several of each, shoot only round ball. I usually use my 54 Hawkens for hunting, just love the history, challenge. Killed plenty of critters with these guns the last 25 years. Round ball, especially 54 or larger, get the job done, as long as you get close and make the shot count.

Nothing wrong with inline, just like the older, historically guns, real cool to shoot.

ML guys need to stick together to protect what few hunts we have.

.54 round ball has taken 3 elk and quite a few mule deer for me.  Nothing has made it 50 yards after the shot.  The pure lead ball flattens out like a quarter. 

Nothing wrong with inlines but if you read the history of the fur trade those guys sure didn't need them.  They travelled back and forth across the Rockies taking every kind of game there was.  I figure it should be good enough for me too then.   

[Sabotloader]

I love Hawkens and Kentucky rifles. Have several of each, shoot only round ball. I usually use my 54 Hawkens for hunting, just love the history, challenge. Killed plenty of critters with these guns the last 25 years. Round ball, especially 54 or larger, get the job done, as long as you get close and make the shot count.

Nothing wrong with inline, just like the older, historically guns, real cool to shoot.

ML guys need to stick together to protect what few hunts we have.

RG, you are absolutely correct, but I would be willing to bet the farm that if modern inlines were available in the 1860's you would have seen a huge defection from the sidehammers of the time. [/quote]

.54 round ball has taken 3 elk and quite a few mule deer for me.  Nothing has made it 50 yards after the shot.  The pure lead ball flattens out like a quarter. 

Nothing wrong with inlines but if you read the history of the fur trade those guys sure didn't need them.  They travelled back and forth across the Rockies taking every kind of game there was.  I figure it should be good enough for me too then.

[oneshot12]

PBR will take a lot of critters down . still only use 90 grns 3 f in my 54. never had worries about much more then 100 yard shot most were with in less the 40 yards,  but have taken a couple long shots with the PBR just was real sure and marked the target well before letting the hammer fall  . they work pretty darn good now days  I have taken a couple elk with the inline .Many Thanks to  sabot loader who has been a big help teaching and old dog some new tricks  . but i am still working out the bugs so i can reach out and touch them critters as well the . best way to put it is if you can put a good bead on the critter  and can  hold steady and know what your gun can do then take the shot .    But what ever you do shoot just  get out there and have a great time hunting  period. 

[Skillet]

PBR will take a lot of critters down . still only use 90 grns 3 f in my 54. never had worries about much more then 100 yard shot most were with in less the 40 yards,  but have taken a couple long shots with the PBR just was real sure and marked the target well before letting the hammer fall  . they work pretty darn good

PBR has taken me down a time or two...
 

But I believe you meant PRB for Patched Round Ball, yes 

[oneshot12]

Skillet  be kind of tough to keep your powder dry let alone getting it down the barrel dont you think   
yes  PATCHED ROUND BALL ( PBR )  nice shot pard  nice shot indeed