Dr. Mora requests your assistance with independent elk hoof disease research

[idahohuntr]

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Indeed, and somewhat ironic that you invoke Roosevelt's phrase in this manner amidst your criticism of the credentialed volunteer.  Don't be too critical of the volunteer doing the work.

The state's failure to cooperate with a reasonable request from Dr. Mora in a timely manner is suspicious.  If their work is solid, his work would corroborate that.  No skin off their nose, so why delay?  Some form of political coercion or ethics issue would be in play for them not to cooperate.  Therefore, any work they produce should be considered suspect, and their cohort potentially corrupted.

TR's quote very much applies...to the folks at WDFW working day in and day out serving the public by using the best science all while being constantly criticized in public domains.  They are out publishing cutting edge science on what is potentially behind hoof rot which brings them another step closer to figuring out the best management options for protecting our elk. 

[motg9_6]

i still have a hard time believing with todays technology they havent found the cause yet, once again ALL resources should be EXHAUSTED, follow up studies confirming results and test heck third and fourth studies and tests. as hunters we should all be behind finding out what the cause is before its too late.
what happens when you take your car to the shop because you think it has an issue and the first mechanic tells you theres nothing wrong?? YOU TAKE IT TO ANOTHER MECHANIC. same should apply here!

[idahohuntr]

http://jcm.asm.org/content/early/2014/10/27/JCM.02276-14.abstract

I think we've got the right mechanic   

[dreamunelk]

http://jcm.asm.org/content/early/2014/10/27/JCM.02276-14.abstract

I think we've got the right mechanic 

 

The live stock industry has been dealing with this for a long time and spent a lot of money trying to figure out.  Peer reviewed science is what we should be learning from.  Not conspiracy theories or self proclaimed experts who want to conduct studies that are not subject to peer review.

[pianoman9701]

http://jcm.asm.org/content/early/2014/10/27/JCM.02276-14.abstract

I think we've got the right mechanic 

 

The live stock industry has been dealing with this for a long time and spent a lot of money trying to figure out.  Peer reviewed science is what we should be learning from.  Not conspiracy theories or self proclaimed experts who want to conduct studies that are not subject to peer review.

First of all, Dr. More is as far from a "self-proclaimed expert" as can be. He's recognized the world over as an expert in his field. Secondly, he's not asking for no peer review. He's asking to conduct studies which the WDFW has refused to conduct. They have consistently avoided doing any testing for agricultural chemicals in their toxicologies, admittedly. And, just because this looks like the same disease that affect domestic stock, doesn't mean it's so. The WDFW has known about this problem for over 20 years. The fact is that they have no conclusive evidence that this is the same disease as found affecting domestic livestock.

[idahohuntr]

Oh...he's testing for chemicals now? I thought it was lepto?  What will it be next week?  Maybe he should read wdfw's research...he needs to catch up with the rest of the scientific community if he wants to help.  Of course if he and others want to just use and exploit this serious issue for selfish interests...then I can see why he would rather just twist in the wind about possible causes.  It would also explain why he hasn't done anything or produced a single shred of data or evidence of anything.  Folks say "let him do the study"...we'll nobody is stopping him...what's the hold up?  Why hasn't he already collected samples and solved this?  While quick to criticize, he hasn't produced anything in several years but hot air. 

Meanwhile wdfw has isolated a specific bacteria associated only with the hoof deformities...a breakthrough that may lead to the best management options.  Their research is reviewed by panels of independent experts and is on the best path to save elk herds.

I know who I want working on this problem.

[mfswallace]

Oh...he's testing for chemicals now? I thought it was lepto?  What will it be next week?  Maybe he should read wdfw's research...he needs to catch up with the rest of the scientific community if he wants to help.  Of course if he and others want to just use and exploit this serious issue for selfish interests...then I can see why he would rather just twist in the wind about possible causes.  It would also explain why he hasn't done anything or produced a single shred of data or evidence of anything.  Folks say "let him do the study"...we'll nobody is stopping him...what's the hold up?  Why hasn't he already collected samples and solved this?  While quick to criticize, he hasn't produced anything in several years but hot air. 

Meanwhile wdfw has isolated a specific bacteria associated only with the hoof deformities...a breakthrough that may lead to the best management options.  Their research is reviewed by panels of independent experts and is on the best path to save elk herds.

I know who I want working on this problem.

 

[JimmyHoffa]

Oh...he's testing for chemicals now? I thought it was lepto?  What will it be next week?  Maybe he should read wdfw's research...he needs to catch up with the rest of the scientific community if he wants to help.  Of course if he and others want to just use and exploit this serious issue for selfish interests...then I can see why he would rather just twist in the wind about possible causes.  It would also explain why he hasn't done anything or produced a single shred of data or evidence of anything.  Folks say "let him do the study"...we'll nobody is stopping him...what's the hold up?  Why hasn't he already collected samples and solved this?  While quick to criticize, he hasn't produced anything in several years but hot air. 

Meanwhile wdfw has isolated a specific bacteria associated only with the hoof deformities...a breakthrough that may lead to the best management options.  Their research is reviewed by panels of independent experts and is on the best path to save elk herds.

I know who I want working on this problem.

 

  don't know why some want to suppress an alternative approach.  Confused by the vitriol.

[Dbax129]

Fall river elk? I'd give him a call if he wanted. That's where I will be. Cant hurt right?

[idahohuntr]

Nobody is suppressing him...he hasn't produced anything but cheap talk...that is what is frustrating.  It's time for him to do something or shut his mouth.  Can anyone tell me why he hasn't already collected samples from elk? 

[GBoyd]

I don't understand this argument. All they're asking for is samples from elk. Why not give it to them?

Right now they're just getting started on the study. When they've finished the study and presented preliminary data, then we can argue about it. If previous studies haven't found leptospirosis, then most likely this study won't either. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be repeated.

Wait until the man does his work, then you can criticize his methods. There's no point criticizing him now.

[dreamunelk]

http://jcm.asm.org/content/early/2014/10/27/JCM.02276-14.abstract

I think we've got the right mechanic 

 

The live stock industry has been dealing with this for a long time and spent a lot of money trying to figure out.  Peer reviewed science is what we should be learning from.  Not conspiracy theories or self proclaimed experts who want to conduct studies that are not subject to peer review.

First of all, Dr. More is as far from a "self-proclaimed expert" as can be. He's recognized the world over as an expert in his field. Secondly, he's not asking for no peer review. He's asking to conduct studies which the WDFW has refused to conduct. Don't buy into the BS of the department cheerleader in here who thinks that the WDFW can do no wrong. They have consistently avoided doing any testing for agricultural chemicals in their toxicologies, admittedly. And, just because this looks like the same disease that affect domestic stock, doesn't mean it's so. The WDFW has known about this problem for over 20 years. The fact is that they have no conclusive evidence that this is the same disease as found affecting domestic livestock.

Please provide proof that he is an expert.  A simple Google Scholar search does not provide much.
Where  is his study proposal? 
What protocols is he using?
Why does he refuse to follow established scientific procedures?

On this web site peer reviewed science is presented.  Yet, you don't want to except it, why?

A search of terms used in the papers and in material available from WDFW web site as well a search of citations provides a lot of information.  Please prove to us that this is all wrong or junk science as some proclaim.

Yes, Mr. Mora did his dissertation on leptospirosis in 1978.   A lot has changed since then. But, even then a study proposal that was peer reviewed was required.

Many want to link two issues into one.  Hoof disease and spraying are two different issues.  The anitgun and antihunting crowd do this all the time.  Sad that hunters stoop to the same level. 

The department cheerleader?  Really?  You have to resort to insults to prove your point?  What information have you provided, other than opinions that are not be based on science or follow the simple rules of critical reasoning?

To close this reply please provide proof that the Journal of Clinical Microbiology prints junk science and how many times has Dr. Mora been published in it or other professional publications?






 

[Coastal_native]

From my perspective, with much respect to the WDFW for the level of responsibility they're entrusted with, there is so much hunter distrust and general lack of satisfaction towards the department, that people (many) are more willing to trust a private citizen than the state's game department.  That's a problem worth addressing. 

[pianoman9701]

Dreamunelk, Jon Gosch has the specifics on Boone Mora, although he was with the CDC for I believe 24 years specializing in zoonosis, specifically leptospirosis. While he was there, he correctly identified leptospirosis for the CDC around the world. In one case, he was reading a paper about an unidentified illness in Central America and from his desk in Atlanta correctly identified leptospira bacteria as the culprit because of the symptoms cited in the paper. Of the symptoms present were muscle aches and atrophy, especially in the calf and leg muscles. What has led him to believe that leptospirosis is the culprit is hoof disease is the tendency for the affected elk to be far less active than unaffected animals. The hoof deformities, he theorizes, could be from this inactivity as the hooves don't wear like those of more active, unaffected elk because the animals lie down or remain immobile because of the pain in their legs. Indeed, affected elk have shown severe atrophy in the affected limbs.

The questions of the experts at WDFW come in to play when some are hired guns for herbicide manufacturers. Whether or not this has affected their objectivity, the mere appearance of impropriety is present. Dr. Fairbrother works for Exponent, Inc. Exponent defends chemical companies in liability lawsuits regarding claims stemming from exposure to herbicides, specifically Atrazine and Round-Up. The possible connection between herbicides and hoof disease is that both of these substances have been shown in studies by independent scientists to, among many other things, affect immune systems. Further clouding the objectivity of the WDFW's research is the fact that they've refused to look at this as a possibility by testing the elk for these herbicides when they've performed toxicologies. University of California, Berkeley, professor Tyrone Hayes has done extensive research on Atrazine linking it to myriad human health problems and also specifically, the decline and deformation of amphibians in agricultural areas. He's been followed, harassed, and his research has been put into question by none other than Exponent, Inc as a representative of the Atrazine manufacturer, Syngeta.

No one has said that leptospirosis is the cause of hoof disease, including Dr. Mora. No one has said that there is a cuasitive relationship between herbicides and hoof disease. However, without observation of live specimens or testing for residual herbicidal chemicals in the organs, it can't be ruled out. This is why so many of us have a problem with how the WDFW has gone forward with the disease (not to mention their inaction for almost 20 years after learning about it). You compare the proposed connection of herbicides to hoof disease as something the anti-hunters do. I would suggest strongly that if the WDFW had taken the steps to rule out the presence of these chemicals in affected elk and accepted Dr. Mora's generous offer of assistance to study our elk with regards to his expertise, then we'd be able to rule out a connection between the two. In lieu of their studies on those chemicals or their cooperation with Dr. Mora, the question for many will remain. You may not believe there's any connection. Without the science to rule it out, you don't know any better than I.

I'll remove my cheerleader comment. But it's pertinent to note that almost regardless of the topic, that member always chimes in on the side of the WDFW.